Excerpt:
Jeff Dolan spent Father’s Day in jail, locked away for failure to pay child support. Deadbeat dads don’t garner a lot of sympathy. But you don’t need to study Jeff’s case for long before you realize that he’s anything but a deadbeat. Instead, he’s a man hopelessly ensnared in a crushing bureaucratic machine: He’s in jail because he couldn’t pay child support, but he couldn’t pay child support because he was unemployed … and he was unemployed because the court took his driver’s license for failure to pay child support … after he went bankrupt paying his court costs.
[…]Courts, in their earnest efforts to do right by families, are destroying them, instead. Men, who want only the chance to be good fathers, are crushed under the weight of gender-biased default rulings and the inertia of unfeeling bureaucracies. Whether in far-off Minnesota or, as Post columnist Barbara Kay has shown time and again, right here in Canada, men fighting custody battles are outgunned from the start. Jeff’s story, of being forced into bankruptcy by family court proceedings and then being jailed by those same courts for not being able to pay their court-mandated payments, is no surprise to any number of Canadian dads.
Bill Levy, a Canadian with bitter personal experience in such matters said it best: “Canada has reopened debtor prisons, only for parents. Only alienated parents go to jail for poverty. No Mastercard or mortgage debtors. The Constitution does not permit this, we can’t be forced into servitude. And yet no one will stand up in court and make these arguments. Men, and some women, too, can’t fight back against the court’s preference for expediency.” That mirrors what Jeff’s brother Jon told me in a phone interview: “Jeff isn’t in jail because he’s an abuser or a bad father. He’s in jail because he’s poor in a bad economy where there are no jobs.”
About 45% of first marriages end in divorce, with women initiating about 70% of divorces and getting full custody about 90% of the time. False accusations are regularly used by the person who initiates the divorce in order to get restraining orders and de facto custody of the children, and the child support payments that go with them. It is a massive transfer of wealth from men to women at gunpoint, and a massive loss of liberty for men.
People keep expecting men to step up and take on the role of husband and father, but when the chips are down, 77% of young unmarried women voted for Barack Obama and his policies of destroying the economy. A job is a requirement for men to marry and to take on the role of husband and father. Not only are the schools and universities biased against men, but the industries where men dominate have also been hit hardest by the recession.
We need to spend less time on fashionable causes like environmentalism, gun control, pacifism, animal rights and universal health care, and more time on economics. It’s men who have the most to lose emotionally and financially from a divorce. Not only that, but women commit domestic violence against men at rates equal to men, but the laws (e.g. – VAWA) don’t recognize the truth. The vast majority of the social programs are for women only.
A good start would be to read this summary of the divorce courts by Stephen Baskerville, and also listen to the Dr. Morse lecture on marriage. Either we are going to encourage men to marry and praise them for marrying or we are going to discourage them and then blame them for not marrying. Men respond to incentives. As long as society as a whole chooses to remain ignorant of the facts and chooses to continue to blame men, men won’t marry.
WINTERY KNIGHT 
‘Not only that, but women commit domestic violence against men at rates equal to men’
Really?! What’s your source for that?
Not saying I don’t believe you, but I know you never make empty claims and always have something to back them up!
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I’m trying to get people to comment more by NOT linking all my proof and making people ask for it!
British Government study says:
Canadian Government study says:
So my sources are feminist governments. They have no reason to agree with me, so they have to be telling the truth.
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Oh ok fair enough!!
I wasn’t let down by your source either – home office, very impressive!
I’d love to compare those statistics to the rate of convictions!
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There are other sources for statistics.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/press/fvspr.cfm
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Probably because men are less likely to press charge when attacked by women.
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I believe I read a while ago that here (NZ) men are attacked by partners at *twice* the rate women are.
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Women commit domestic violence at almost the same rate as men.
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And you wonder why I’m never going to get married? I think it’s painfully obvious why.
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I’m never getting married either.
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One of us is lying, and it’s not me.
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Well, it would take a miracle.
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Hey, I’m probably not going to get married, either. Maybe we can form a club!
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Divorce has put women down to below poverty level for thousands of years. Divorce has been used to threaten, punish, and control for at least that long as well. Not by all, men, of course. But it has always been within their power. This is what Jesus was talking about when He told the men not to divorce except for maritial unfaithfulness. They were divorcing for stupid reasons and women were suffering for it since they had no way to support themselves. It was a huge weight held over their heads.
Now for a few short decades the tables are turned. Don’t like it much, do you?
Problem is that women never, until of late, had the choice not to marry. It was either marry or be impoverished, dependant on (sometimes)resentful family members, used, abused, or prostituted. Ever read Jane Austen?
Be glad you at least have the choice not to marry.
But rather, I hope you do find good women (or men, McS). They are out there. And I hope that you have a long lasting, partnership that is mutually benificial and satisfying.
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I’m kind of with Mara on this one. I realize that today’s culture is fraught with economic risks to men because of the ease with which women can divorce and then force men into economic slavery via the child support and alimony process.
I have lived (and am living through) this process myself. Several years ago, my first wife divorced me against my will. Early on, in order to get her to agree for me to have any kind of time with my daughter, I had to agree to pay her alimony. Fortunately, it ended up being for a relatively short time, but before it was all over she was awarded 2/3 of her very substantial attorney’s fees and 100% of the equity in the home before she agreed to drop the demand for additional alimony, plus a substantial child support payment every month.
Keep in mind that all of this happened to me without warning and against my will. I had no advance warning that this was going to happen and no chance to try to work things out with her. But I determined in my heart to do the right thing and stay in my daughter’s life, instead of walking away like my ex-wife was desperately wanting me to do, and God has rewarded me for my faithfulness.
I am now more prosperous than I have ever been, have a wonderful Christian women as a new wife, and a new daughter on the way in October. God has truly restored the years that the locusts have eaten. Meanwhile my ex-wife’s life has gone completely downhill. She is unemployed and barely able to make her house payment every month. She is constantly harassed by creditors and has gone through many failed romantic relationships. If it wasn’t for my child support payment every month (which will come to an end at some point) she would be forced to move back in with her parents.
Like Mara says, there are really good people out there that would make great spouses. This is why you take a very long time to get to know someone and make absolutely sure where they stand on Biblical issues and their attitudes about divorce. God can bring someone very special into your life if you seek His will.
wgbutler777
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WG, thank you for sharing your story.
I know about most of this from reading the statistics, but also case studies of how horrible it can really be in specific cases. The thing that really bothers me is how after the divorce the ex-wife tries to get the man completely out of the child’s life. I heard it mentioned on a Dr. Morse podcast. She said that the fact that the woman would have to still deal with the man after the divorce was a DETERRENT to the woman divorcing. So it’s not that they care about breaking up the family – it’s that they don’t want to be judged about breaking up the family.
I think the poisoning of the children against the father is what really puts me off of marriage. I’ve talked to children who were raised by single mothers – everything they know about their fathers comes from their mothers. Consequently, then hate their fathers, and it carries over into hatred and blaming of men. And because fatherless daughters perpetuate these beliefs that men are evil, a growing portion of the female population votes in more and more anti-male policies. It’s not safe to marry – you expose yourself to an entire government that hates you because of the bad decisions that they and their mothers and their grandmothers made with men. And they take no responsibility for their own bad decisions with men.
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You think it doesn’t go the other way around or even in intact homes?
Back when my husband was still serving God, I caught him bad mouthing me to my kids.
I told him that he was *#$% lucky that I didn’t think turn about was fair play. Cause if I did, he wouldn’t have a chance since I was a stay at home mom and was with them for so much longer.
I know he still bad mouths me because my kids tell me the things he says. But they are old enough to see through his crap.
Still, I try to encourage my children to be respectful and see his good qualities. He has them. He’s just not always wise about what comes out of his mouth.
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Wow wg that’s an amazing testimony, it really is. God really does work everything out for the good of those who love him.
It’s especially a great heads up for someone like me, ie someone naive and ignorant needing to learn ;)
Luckily I haven’t been in any kind of romantic relationship at all yet, and I hope to keep it that way for a good few years yet, meanwhile I will listen to people like you ;)
Of course that’s not to say that God’s people will ALWAYS up end in such a great position, materially speaking. The true gospel absolutely does not = health, wealth & prosperity gospel, though sometimes he may grant us those amazing things out of his own loving kindness.
Often talks in the Bible about how it will seem like the unrighteous get away with it in this life, getting everything they want, whilst Christ’s followers seem to get nothing there way.
Of course, the truth could not be any more to the contrary, but that’s another story ;)
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That’s a great real life testimony WG! Thank you for sharing it with us. The difficulty in your life hasn’t made you sour, instead you become prosperous and blessings to other. God bless you!
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So your argument boils down to: they got to do it for a long time and now it’s only fair that women get to do it for a while, even though the men alive RIGHT NOW had nothing to do with past bad behavior? Have I got that about right?
Your post is moronic, ridiculous, and a lot of other things that Wintery won’t let me say.
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ECM, smile.
Whatever.
My point is not that it’s time to punish present day men for the sins of men in the past.
But one thing about empathy.
It’s hard to understand what another goes through unless you walk in their shoes.
Men have never had to walk in women’s shoes like this before.
Also, I don’t know what it is about so many men (not all, but the majority, and I’m not including you in this because I don’t know you well enough) that when it comes to women, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” flies right out the freaky window.
In the past, so many didn’t give a rip about the damage they did to their women.
Now men HAVE to consider it. The playing field is level, even unlevel to the female’s advantage. So the pendulum swings.
I will agree with you and fight with you to make it level for men and women. The minute you want to disadvantage women again in a backlash of anger and resentment, I’ll fight against you. Not to disadvantage you or all men. I only want things to be fair, all the way around.
I’m not for anyone being punished by divorce, women in the past or men in the present.
But how can men, in general, in past or present, understand the financial pain if it’s not even a possiblity for them, if they always have the upper hand as they did in the past.
For (Christian) women, I don’t want to put them back under unfair laws. I want them to be free. However, I want them to know that their freedom should not be used as an opportunity to sin against others. That’s scriptural. To be free, but not use that freedom for sin.
It is a sin for any woman to use the laws designed to protect them to hurt innocent men. No Christian woman should ever consider it.
But, unfortunately, just because someone calls themselves Christian, doesn’t mean they act like it. The is true for both male and female.
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Oh congratulation! Now men finally understand what women had been going through
Decades of massacre of millions of innocent unborn, breaking marriages, discouraged men from marriage and being committed husbands and fathers, and secularizing the new generation.
Well done
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Glad you approve.
Sorry you don’t really get it.
If you did, it might make a difference in this world.
But rather, it’s much easier to blame female reaction to injustice than to take an honest look at the inciting injustice that caused the reaction in the first place.
And it’s much easier to run around pointing the finger than to come to the table and to work through to a conclusion that would benefit both sides rather than to continually favor one.
When I see men willing to work toward what is right and fair for all, I’m encouraged. And I do see some of that here.
When I see men bemoan their loss of entitlement and rail against women who just want a fair shake, I have little patience.
Women in the church, true Christian women, should be the most free women in the world. Not so they can hate men and abort their babies, but so they can love their husbands and children fearlessly and champion the cause of family and home.
But unfortunately, much teaching I see in the church ties the woman’s hands and makes her a slave, not a freeborn citizen, of the Kingdom. Then when she’s had enough, she leaves to find freedom elsewhere and thinks freedom involves aborting or single motherhood.
Yet so many men in the church continue to teach bondage to women because it puts themselves at the advantage. They either don’t care or refuse to see the damage they do. But their denial won’t make the damage go away. It is very real and I’m tired of seeing it.
It is the job of the church to bring freedom to all, not just the men.
May God forgive those who say, “The truth shall set you free” but they bring bondage instead. And what makes it worse is that they bring this bondage in the name of God.
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What what exactly is this ‘bondage’ teaching that you talk about that so many men in church teach?
And what do you think the freedom in “The truth shall set you free” is about? Freedom to perform abortion? Freedom to divorce?
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No, Anon.
Just to set things straight with you, I think abortion and much (not all, but much) of divorce is another form of bondage for women.
But there is a teaching creeping into the church, and encouraged by respected leaders, that is doing much damage. And women fleeing this bondage and damage are running to the arms of third wave feminism, that false comforter of women.
But women do need comfort. And it is my desire that they find it within the arms of the church and the arms of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the true comforter of all.
Here is a video about the false teaching taking over the homeschool movement, the SBC and others.
I love homeschool. I’m not Baptist, but have many Baptist friends.
I homeschooled my kids up to jr. high.
And I hate the false teaching taking over homeschool today. I’m glad I got in and got out before the crazies started taking over.
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My internet connection is terrible and the video is very long. I only watched to about 7 minutes.
No scriptures were mentioned along side any argument so far.
The job of the church is to teach The Bible, not to comfort women (or men).
It’s better to not have these people who just seek comfort. Let them join the world than to poison the church.
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Wow.
Just wow.
And not in a good way.
Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. For I am gentle and humble in heart and you will find rest for your souls. –Jesus
But what does Anon say? Well, basically, uhm, this: “Line up with my version of the Bible, or go to hell.”
Nice.
btw, she does get into scripture. sorry about you computer. You can’t help that.
But there are other things you can help.
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Where did I say line up with my version of the Bible? I’m just saying that the church should not compromise biblical teaching in the sake of comforting people.
People find comfort when they accept Jesus and the truth found in The Bible.
The church should not change to comfort people, the people need to change to find comfort.
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I could not agree with this more. It’s because the church has become so feminized that it is now useless at setting out boundaries with any confidence, so that people just keep sinning and looking for more and more comfort and compassion. Truth and morality are definitely fading fast.
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There you go, Wintery. Blaming the woman again, which is silly since it’s the men who are in charge of making the church and the rules and the ones that bend or ignore them to accomadate their sins, sexual sins/porn, while nailing women on theirs, wanting to be equal (oh my, how sinful for a woman to desire such a thing!).
And using good ol’ ‘biblical’ counseling to keep the status quo
http://formerfundy.blogspot.com/2010/06/biblical-or-nouthetic-counseling.html
:)
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Wintery: I”ve been reading your blog for a couple of months and all I can say is, you need to have more faith in God.
Love is complicated only when you spend all your time sizing up the human aspects and overlooking the unseen hand of God governing. Perhaps, if you spend more time glorifying what God has already done and is doing, and less time nitpicking the material world and other people for being imperfect, you’d see that.
Want more love? Be more loving. Stop making a personal God out of other people’s supposed sins. It’s keeping you focused on all the wrong things–and they’re ones you can’t change, anyway. Besides, other people’s relationship to God and how they live their lives is their business, not yours.
What about your relationship with God? It’s surely a mirror of what we can expect here on earth when it comes to personal relationships. What are we commanded to do? Love our neighbor as ourselves. Love our enemies. I hear a lot of people on this site talking about God but I almost never hear anyone discussing this mandate from Christ. I find that supremely odd, coming on a site devoted to Christianity.
After all, The Bible says, If you love not your brother, whom ye hath seen, how can you love God, whom ye hath not?
It’s a valid question.
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WG, I do love your stories.
And I thank God for blessing you.
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Hmm, fascinating post and I’m late to the party.
I certainly agree with the Knight and ECM in regards to the playing field being shifted. But I don’t wanna get into all of that atm.
Wintery, let me paint you two different pictures of the scene when it regards Christian women and women in general.
That 77% that voted for Obama: These were probably the type of women I ran into at the bars when I was a professional musician. As a Christian, I turned these women off something without saying a word because they KNEW I was more moral than them, in some bizarre sixth sense. And those few that I dated a few times would ask me something like, “so, uh, when WOULD you have sex with a woman in a relationship?” Because the answer wasn’t RIGHT NOW, they would freak the heck out.
However, that leftover percentage of women are out there in droves; real, Christian women who actually like apologetics and stuff like that. Women like the ones who comment on your blog! My wife, as you know, was the person who introduced Christian apologetics to me. Heck, I got my first copy of Mere Christianity from her, and it was from her that I read Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel among many others (and I have started to read William Lane Craig, but I confess my favorite apologist right now is Dinesh D’Souza).
So with my wife, and I’m not saying this to brag even though it might sound like this, isn’t gonna put me in the kind of dire straights you talk about. There is zero risk there, none, unless I go out and sleep with another woman or get physically abusive.
So while all of this stuff you talk about is true and it sucks, you can (and I really think should) find a woman that is truly a Bible believing Christian, and it won’t be taking the big risk you might think it is!
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Hey feilong80. I think this comment is very persuasive to me. The best way to convince me of anything around these issues is to show me that you actually see the problem and even to exaggerate how bad it is, then to show me the solution.
This is scary:
“That 77% that voted for Obama: These were probably the type of women I ran into at the bars when I was a professional musician. As a Christian, I turned these women off something without saying a word because they KNEW I was more moral than them, in some bizarre sixth sense. And those few that I dated a few times would ask me something like, “so, uh, when WOULD you have sex with a woman in a relationship?” Because the answer wasn’t RIGHT NOW, they would freak the heck out. ”
Well, that scares the life out of me. But I have a friend who is familiar with the scene who explained to me everything there is to know about what women are thinking when they do things like this. And yes, it is widespread. In fact, I spend yesterday going through this massive study on hooking up. So I know all about what women are doing. Oral sex is the new kiss goodnight, thanks to feminism.
But then you provided a solution that removes all fear, on the merits. Imagine… a woman who leads a man to strengthen his faith with apologetics. Giving him books to read, and monitoring his progress. Can such a thing even exist? A woman who includes the pursuit of truth as part of her relationship with him? Sounds too crazy to be believed, but that’s what you are telling me.
Most of the commenters to my blog are married. But I am always open to any single Christian woman who wants to try. Just not optimistic.
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“As a Christian, I turned these women off something without saying a word because they KNEW I was more moral than them, in some bizarre sixth sense.”
Wow, feilong80. you’re so humble!
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MCS, this is actually pretty standard. I’ve approached hundreds of women through undergrad and grad school and the reason given for them wanting nothing to do with me is that I take religion and morality too strictly, and they did not want to be bound by any truth about God nor by any moral obligations that had force apart from their own selfish will.
I have had apologetics materials pushed back across the table at me many times. They are not interested in serving God through a relationship. They are not interested in having their beliefs constrained by reasons or evidence. They want autonomy from reality itself, and especially from other people’s demands and judgments.
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Obviously, you are both very good at peering into other people’s souls.
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Well, I’m very good at peering into your soul, and let me just see… oh my God, someone turn on the lights! Ow! I bumped my nose! What is this rubbery thing encircling my leg! Aaaaaiiiieee!
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Hey Wintery,
” What do you mean, the church has become “feminized” and is not setting boundaries? Also, are you referring to a particular church or Christianity in general?
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I mean the elevation of feelings and compassion or reason and moral standards/boundaries.
I mean the orthodox Christian church that affirms traditional Christian creeds. I mean the way that church services have 30 minutes of singing songs but no knowledge of apologetics or public policy is ever taught no matter how long you attend, because it’s divisive.
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Wintery, I agree that we cannot let feelings dictate to us anything against moral standards/boundaries. I agree with you on that. I’m sorry I didn’t make myself clear.
But what about the feelings of being insecure and wanting to find comfort in a verse that has been taught to give you control over a person or situation.
I’ve seen this a lot.
Especially wounded men feel a certain amount of ‘safety’ in being the one in control. They never express it that way because I don’t think they are even aware of it themselves.
And I’m talking about good men other places than here. Men I would be please to call friends. But they have a blind spot concerning this and are unaware of how they feel. And in fact are so taught against exploring their feelings because it’s not ‘manly’ that there is a refusal to acknowledge how they feel.
But being unaware of how they feel doesn’t mean they don’t feel. And it doesn’t mean they aren’t being controlled by the hidden feeling.
It’s something to consider.
It’s something to look at in light of the whole so see if maybe a feeling beneath the surface is driving a teaching more that the biblical accuracy of it.
The heart is deceitfully wicked.
God showed me that about myself and all humans some time ago. We can decieve ourselves and not even know it. One of my prayers is that the Light of the World would enlighten me so that I can see things better as He sees them.
I, in no way, have arrived. It is a journey I will continue on until the end. And I invite whoever is willing and feeling bold enough, to also pray this prayer for themselves.
John 1:9; Ephesians 3:14-21
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It’s the lobster pirate! Mwaaaaaahaha!!
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Mara,
I know a lot of men are giving you grief over your comments. I disagree with you as well but I’ll try not to annoy you too much in the process. :)
Oh and BTW, I am a woman, so I hope you do understand I know what women have gone through for ages and ages. But like I said earlier, I disagree with you on many counts.
For one, I am glad you do acknowledge the fact that not all men used the powers that were bestowed upon them by the society to suppress women. But I am surprised that you don’t mention a thing about those men beyond that single sentence. I, for one, don’t believe that the freedom we enjoy today were earned for us by women alone. It just wouldn’t have been possible given the society they lived in. I strongly believe good men fought side by side with women, so we could enjoy the fruits of that hard fought battle this day. So when you say “Okay, the tables have turned now for a few decades. Stop whining and suck it up.”, we, as women, are not doing anything to the men who mistreated us all along. Rather we are back stabbing the very men who fought with us for our freedom.
He needn’t have given the quality education he gave his daughters in the pre-independence era India. It was entirely his choice. He willfully chose to give them freedom and treated them just like he treated his sons. Because he was a good Christian man.
Empathy is one thing. It’s hard to understand someone without being in their shoes. It’s not impossible. My grandfather is a case in point. So why can’t we trust the current good men to do us justice? What’s the point in punishing them for no fault of theirs? What I want as a woman is justice, not retribution. Christ is all for justice and all against revenge.
And the new age feminism? It’s the most demeaning thing that ever happened to us women. When they had gotten the justice and equality they were fighting for, they pushed further and started craving for power. Power, so they can dominate men like once they were dominated. They say with great power comes great responsibility. But these women started using their freedoms irresponsibly, to think how responsible they would be with power is scary!!
I really suggest you see these men as fellow warriors who care about our dignity and equality rather than minor sacrifices on our route to bigger power. It would help being patient with them. At least it helps me. Of course, it’s just a friendly suggestion.
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Thnks Shalini. Either women are going to come around to your way of thinking, or Western civilization is doomed.
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“we, as women, are not doing anything to the men who mistreated us all along. Rather we are back stabbing the very men who fought with us for our freedom.”
I do believe you misunderstand where I come from.
I’m not a third wave or gender feminist.
I’m not even a very good egal, for crying out loud.
I’m not on the side of women who hate men and abort their babies.
I’m here to point out that, in spite of all that evangelicals have been telling each other for the last 20 to 30 years, the church’s biggest enemy is not the third wave feminist. She’s small beans compare to other enemies we face. Nor does she truely have the power to doom Western Civilization. Wintery, you really shouldn’t give her that much credit. She is like the magician’s brightly colored handkerchief that he waves in front of the audience with one hand while he does his tricks with the other.
You think I’m trying to take out my anger on these men. No, I’m not. I’m trying to get them to wake up and smell the coffee and to stop being put into a stupper by the tricks of the deceiver.
I’m having little success. The magician has played his hand well. Thus my frustration.
You are probably right, though. I should be more gracious and just walk away when frustrated then come back and try to state my argument better.
Calm logic and reason are much better than frustration any day.
And as you have proven–
a calm answer turns away wrath.
Thanks.
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I am sorry I didn’t see this earlier.
No Mara, I didn’t think you were a third wave feminist or any of the other things you’ve mentioned. That’s precisely why I said ‘we’. :)
Without completely agreeing with you, can I ask you what do you think is the biggest threat to the church? I am genuinely curious. If you have mentioned it else where just direct me to your comment. It would suffice.
I personally don’t think the third wave feminist is the ‘biggest’ threat to the church, per se. But I do think she is an important accessory to one of the biggest threats the church is facing in recent times, according to me. Socialism. (I try being careful when I use superlatives.) Socialism scares me because it’s not blatantly black. It gives people the feeling of righteousness and goodness (which we all oh-so-crave to be) that people are completely blind to atrocities it commits. Like the public funded abortions in the name of health care. And women seem to be buying it so easily. Mind you, I am not saying women are naive, but they are beguiled by the faux charity socialism speaks of.
What I am saying here is that, she might not be biggest crack in a sinking ship, but she still contributes which is bad enough. I might agree with you that solely putting the blame on her is pointless, but you know what they say about aiding/abetting.
Having said that, I do agree with you, Alisha and McSpinster that WK’s negativity is off-putting to a certain extent.
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Shalini,
I wanted to let you know that I saw this earlier and have been thinking about how to respond. I’m toying with the idea of addressing it on my blog. I stress toying. It would take more than one post because my concerns are not so, simple as, “It’s the feminist’s fault” or “All men are evil”. Neither is accurate.
But my time is slurped up by a lot of stuff so my blog has been inactive.
Besides it’s been more fun to stir up things here than write on my own blog which I keep low-key on purpose.
If I do decide to go that route, I’ll let you know and invite you over.
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I can get you two connected on e-mail.
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I appreciate that Wintery and was planning on asking you if I ever got around to it.
However, you know how slow I am on certain things. You might clue in Shalini in on that. But if/when I’m ready, and if it’s all right with Shalini, I’ll let you know.
Thanks
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Yes, Mara, it suits me just fine. :)
And I am really sorry for my late responses. Have been caught up with the FIFA world cup and my fav. team was knocked out yday. Had me all heart-broken. :'( (I hope that doesn’t make you stop considering any of my questions seriously!! I have my quirks :D)
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“Socialism scares me because it’s not blatantly black. It gives people the feeling of righteousness and goodness (which we all oh-so-crave to be) that people are completely blind to atrocities it commits. Like the public funded abortions in the name of health care. And women seem to be buying it so easily. Mind you, I am not saying women are naive, but they are beguiled by the faux charity socialism speaks of. ”
Shal, this awesome!
I don’t think you can hand money to a secular government and then expect them to address the sin issues that cause harm. What they’ll do instead is ignore sin and just redistribute money, thus buying off votes. Better for Christians to give to charity.
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“About 45% of first marriages end in divorce, with women initiating about 70% of divorces and getting full custody about 90% of the time. False accusations are regularly used by the person who initiates the divorce in order to get restraining orders and de facto custody of the children, and the child support payments that go with them. It is a massive transfer of wealth from men to women at gunpoint, and a massive loss of liberty for men.”
The last Barna reports I remember say that 56% of all marriages end in divorce. I rather doubt that most of them are first marriages as that would say that few ever marry again, or few ever divorce again, neither of which seems to hold to other facts. Not that it matters that much. We all know that marriage is in trouble. The question is why?
I don’t know how old you are WinteryKinght but I’ve been around and seen quite a bit, as a retired senior. While it is true that the courts today seldom met out true justice, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. We’re not talking Christians here but everyone including Christians. And the sad news is that divorce among Christians is also about 56% with the highest amount of divorces in the traditional Baptist camp. You can research the info on Barna Updates.
The question is still why so many divorces and why mostly women who initiate divorce. More women are unhappy with their marriages than men are. Why?
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I think it’s because they basically choose to marry the wrong men for the wrong reasons using the wrong courtship technique (binge drinking, hook-up sex and cohabitation). The fact that they get the home, the car, alimony, child support and sole custody doesn’t discourage them from filing for divorce, especially during a recession. They really don’t care how the children are affected, either.
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WIntery! Binge drinking and hook up sex manifest more in young women and young men not finding partners at all to marry then them getting married and divorced. It’s a two way street, but it is in no way responsible for the skyrocketing divorce rates among older women, many over the age of 40 and 50 and even in their 60s, 70s and 80s. What on earth are you reading to give you these notions?
Further, of course there’s a financial aspect to divorce. It used to be that women couldn’t leave a marriage because she’d leave penniless (and that’s how it still is in most other countries). Now that the laws have changed here, that’s not true anymore. But it wasn’t like marriages were satisfying in the past and they’re not, now. It’s just that our attitudes and values have changed. You can get out of marriages more easily (but it’s still not simple) and so people get out. And women are more independent. By and large, they do much better on their own. Men, on the other hand, don’t, which is why many women after divorce remain single, and men look to get married again. Also the same reason that most men choose to remarry quickly after being widowed (sometimes within months) and most women do not.
And binge drinking, and hook up sex have nothing to do with it.
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“I think it’s because they basically choose to marry the wrong men for the wrong reasons”
Thinking of young women and young men, most marry for the wrong reasons, and thus marry the wrong person. Most young people marry for the emotional arousal without really thinking about whether this person is a fit for life.
And McSpinster has a great point that there are far more divorces among older women these days where the wife has hung in there for the sake of the children and then when the children are all out of school and/or married off she feels OK to divorce a man that she has spent years with in an unloving relationship. As well, there are also more women with younger children who are not willing to wait until the children are grown and gone. Why?
It seems we need to give much more credit to why a young woman so in love at marriage falls out of love enough to file for divorce.
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Some data about why men and women divorce and income drops after divorce I found online. I am quoting here and not making any conclusions:
“In states where there is a presumption of shared custody with the husband the percentage of women who initiate divorces is much lower. Also, the higher rate of women initiators is probably due to the fact that men are more likely to be “badly behaved.” Husbands, for example, are more likely than wives to have problems with drinking, drug abuse, and infidelity.
A reanalysis of the data determined that the woman’s loss was 27 percent while the man’s gain was 10 percent. Irrespective of the magnitude of the differences, the gender gap is real and seems not to have narrowed much in recent decades.”
From David Popenoe, the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University, New Brunswick, N.J.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/relationships/marriage/debunking-divorce-myths.htm
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“The Divorce Experience: A Study of Divorce at Midlife and Beyond” surveyed 1,147 people ages 40 to 79 who had divorced in their 40s, 50s or 60s. The questionnaire survey, completed in December, had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.
The survey found that women over age 40 seemed more aware of problems in their marriages, while men were more likely to be caught off-guard by their divorces. Twenty-six percent of men said they “never saw it coming,” compared with 14 percent of women.
The AARP study found that most women said they filed for divorces because of physical or emotional abuse, infidelity or drug and alcohol abuse. Men said they sought divorces because they fell out love, they had different values or lifestyles or infidelity.”
http://www.azcentral.com/families/articles/0526olderdivorce-ON.html
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“According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the average woman’s family income drops by 37% after divorce. In other words women suffer more financially than men do.
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PS:
I do not minimize the terrible effects of divorce on men and also of parental child alienation syndrome. One of my oldest school friends (a guy I’ve known since graduate school) is in the middle of this right now with his now ex-wife. Terrible situation.
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Divorce is terrible for both parties. It is a ripping apart of two limbs that were dependent upon one another. Both spouses suffer.
My question is to the men. Why do men tend to not listen to the women. Even on the internet, it takes a lot of wake up experiences before men in general will give full consideration to what women say. Christian men are no different. Few men have been properly taught in their youth to give full honor and respect to women. Thus the problems are perpetuated.
It is interesting that even though we see our parents having problems (we don’t see or understand everything though), when we first enter into marriage it seems that we do things the same way they did, but somehow expect it will work out better. Been there, done that myself. If you do the same things, the same way, you’ll get the similar results. If we want to see things work out differently, we need to do something differently.
And IMO one of the main things that needs to change in marriages is that young men need to respect young women (and all women) treating them with the same considerations they would like for themselves.
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“They really don’t care how the children are affected, either.”
There are probably a few women with this attitude. But every Christian woman I ever met who agonized over whether to divorce, or not, was very concerned over the children. And some, even, for a time, put the child’s needs over their own to the point of hurting their own health. And when their health could no longer stand the stress they were being put under and they realized that if they continued in the marriage any longer, the children would be left with the harsh, annoyed, and/or completely uninvolved father with no mother to buffer the difficult living conditions created by the father.
Please understand. I’m not saying all men are harsh or uninvolved. Far from the fact. I’m saying these Christian women who agonized over divorce were married to men like this, Christian men. The women bought the how-to-make-your-marriage-better books, went to the seminars, pressed for marriage counseling, but the husband didn’t want to change. So she had to leave to preserve her own health.
It was the husband who didn’t care. He liked it the way it was. He could do whatever he wanted, say whatever he wanted, demand whatever he wanted while the wife had no recourse.
For years, through the 70s and 80s, it was mostly the wives who bought the books and listened to the speakers and tried to save the marriage. With a few exceptions, men were not concerned. After a while, there was a shift. Women stopped buying the books and crying out for their marriages because they realized that it DOES take two to make a marriage to work. As long as only one was willing, there was no hope. So they gave up. And started divorcing. And it took women divorcing en masse to get the attention of the men. But so far, it seems to be too little too late.
Please understand what I’m saying.
There is a huge problem.
It is far more complicated than blaming the hook up generation or the feminist.
Thinking the simple solution is to squash feminism does nothing to save the Christian marriage. Nothing. The trouble started long before the first thought of divorce.
And lumping all women into a comment like “They really don’t care how the children are affected” is so far past counter productive that I have to just say that, stop talking, and walk away from that topic.
I’m sorry, Wintery and other young men here, for the mess the older men have left for you to sort out. I really am. You came into the middle of something you had nothing to do with and you have to try to work for a solution that will fit into your own lives.
I pray that God will give you eyes to see and ears to hear what is true wisdom for this generation. The Bible says that where sin abounds, grace abounds more, and I pray that God’s grace will abound toward you and you will rise to the occasion finding solutions that Christian men of the 70s, 80s, and 90s didn’t care enough about to seek.
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”Wintery and other young men here, for the mess the older men have left for you to sort out. I really am. You came into the middle of something you had nothing to do with and you have to try to work for a solution that will fit into your own lives.”
Good words Mara. Every new generation is left with the disasters of the previous. All too often the new generation is clueless. Hopefully, the young men and women of our era are able to wake up and realize something that ancient generations knew, and that is that it is wise to listen to their elders and learn from them. Elder Christians have two things that younger Christians don’t have: experience and perspective (including Biblical perspective). We’ve been there, done that and have seen it’s fruit played out.
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Mara raises a good point. Fixing a marriage while you’re in a marriage isn’t easy. There are counselors and books by the thousands on the subject. Women gobble these things up. Self, help, losing weight, self improvement, how to look better, how to be a better lover, wife, cook, mother, person, Christian wife. Women are masters of self-examination and transformation. Some of it is a bit silly, if you ask me. But for every perceived obstacle that women face, they will find a way to adapt to get around it. They have had to be to get where they are today.
This may correlate somewhat with the research finding that women initiate more divorces and that many men are clueless upon being served with divorce papers that there was ever a problem. Women may see one and decide to take action. Over time and depending upon how well her marriage is doing, she may transform herself right out of wifedom into single motherhood. I am not saying that this makes her better. It makes her, however, more prepared and confident to move on.
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Wintery, I told you I would check in and let you know when you start to sound too negative, so I’m going to go ahead and tell you.
You keep talking about how messed up marriage is, and that’s true, but my word, your negativity is going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The sad thing is, you actually are beginning to sound like the flip side of the ultra-lib-feminists: marriage is bad, will cost too much financially, is not good in this day in age. Do you realize that??? That’s scary.
Okay, readers of this blog are well aware of what you want and even require in a wife. Great. You have standards. You are putting in the work, by study, working hard and study, to be a father and husband someday. Yet, on posts like these, you seem so…shall I state it… yes, I will… bitter, that well, it’s off-putting!
WG shared how he went through a horrible experience, but in time, and through God, he is happily married and still managed to maintain the relationship with his oldest daughter and has a new baby on the way (God bless, by the way). You seem to be caught in expressing, repeatedly, how on dates with women, they have shown themselves to be less than suitable. Okay, Hun, be happy you found out before investing too much time in them! You live and learn!
Do you know how many guys I went on dates with who couldn’t handle my faith? Rejected my morals? Who thought I was kidding when I said no sex until I was married? Who laughed in my face that I actually believed in God? Believe in the Truth of the Bible? You know what? I’m glad it happened. I appreciate my husband so much more now because of it! And I can share my experiences with young people who go through similar experiences now.
Where is your faith? Is it in this world? Because you are very preoccupied by its precepts. Is your faith that toughening divorce laws will prevent a wife from leaving you? Or will you place your faith in the Lord Almighty to bring you a wife who has given her heart, soul, mind and body over to Him? So that when there are days you cannot trust her, you can still trust in the Christ in her heart.
It’s okay if you don’t post this, but I wanted to tell you. *Still friends?*
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This is a really MILD comment. I thought you were going to freak out at me.
“Do you know how many guys I went on dates with who couldn’t handle my faith? Rejected my morals? Who thought I was kidding when I said no sex until I was married? Who laughed in my face that I actually believed in God? Believe in the Truth of the Bible? You know what? I’m glad it happened. I appreciate my husband so much more now because of it! And I can share my experiences with young people who go through similar experiences now.”
This is especially persuasive.
I haven’t actually dated women who did bad things. The only two women I knew/know are both good Christian women, and quite suitable for marriage. I’m talking about the scary statistics and studies I read. Just wait until I post what I found out about women in the IAV study on hooking up. And the author is a big liberal (Elizabeth Marquardt). I just bought her book last night on children of divorce, and I’ll be posting on that for tomorrow.
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I don’t think you heard what Alisha said, W. She said not to focus on all the bad stuff and part of your reply is that you can’t wait to post about women in the IAV study on hooking up.
You’re putting your quest for human evidence above God, in my opinion. You seem kind of in awe of it. But it’s all bad stuff. What if you were, for a day, to focus only on the glorious things of God sitting right under your nose? I think you’re more likely to find the woman of your dreams by recognizing all the good qualities that you appreciate all around you: in kids, old people, school teachers, bus drivers, male and female. Just focus on those qualities of God that you love. Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you. But if all you’re looking for is human evidence that women are bad, you’ll become an expert on that. THe world will appear darker, women will be more alien. You’ll miss the glory of what God created.
THe Bible says we should praise God. How about it?
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MCS, good catch.
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And you know–
Wintery looking at a study about hooking up as another example of how bad things are with women might be like me looking up frequenters of the PlayBoy Mansion and holding them up as an example of how rotten all men are.
It’s neither fair nor balanced.
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This is a national study done by academics at UVA. A national study with students from across the nation.
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Was it students that did the study? How many people, from what age groups, from what social status groups, and from how many states? And what kind of questions were asked.
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Um, no, these were researchers. You will have to update your intuitions based on the data, I’m afraid.
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Wintery, why aren’t you concerned about men hooking up?
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It’s funny you should mention that. Men don’t suffer the same way from oxytocin that women do, so there is apparently less harm psychologically from no-strings-attached sex. My concerns are two-fold. First, men lose their honor when they harm women. Even if all the women in the world were ignorant feminists, men should still not defile themselves with sex outside of marriage. Second, I am concerned about the engaging in pre-marital sex ruins a man’s ability to keep his commitments later on in life, not just to his wife (emotionally, financially, sexually, etc.) but to his children. If he was a hedonist before marriage, it’s going to be hard for him to make the adjustment. Women need to be smart and avoid men who are not virgins. Just don’t go near them. And the way to find out is to make the guy court you for two years, with letters, white roses and eye contact talking, without so much as a kiss on the cheek. It should not be about anything physical. Make the man put out love, every day. I’ll e-mail you privately and give you the numbers on my current relationship to explain how men SHOULD comport themselves.
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I have a friend who was working in research. Almost any survey can get skewed. So I’m very careful as to who I trust. Barna is more trustworthy and unbiased than most. So I think I’ll stick with the sort of surveys they do. I believe they more accurately reflect actual data.
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“update your intuitions”
That was a bit of a snotty nosed kid response. :)
I don’t analyze with intuition. I prefer to stick with known facts.
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Alisha, you rock! This is EXACTLY the impression I get too.
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Thanks, Mary!
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Oh it is mild? Good, lol. Last week, a writer came at me on my blog because she wrote how the “Black church” is keeping African American woman single. I wrote how wrong she is, and well, she found me and let me know wrong I was.
Why am I telling you this story? Because you and her share a similar feeling about marriage. Nowadays, don’t do it. And that’s sad.
I’m glad you found something in my rant of value, lol. I tried to find you on FB, but alas, you weren’t there. :-(
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Oh, and so sorry for all the grammatical errors. I was really typing away madly, and re-reading it is making me cringe.
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“Women need to be smart and avoid men who are not virgins. Just don’t go near them. “
Good advice for teenagers. But beyond that, we have to believe that God is able to heal, truly mend what sin does to us. Primary thing is to not go near a non Christian, and to not engage in sinful behavior with anyone — period.
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I agree with TL here. Well, and I agree with Wintery. It would be BEST if both parties were virgins when they marry, but that’s unfortunately not usually the case. If I took your advice, Wintery, I would not be married to my amazing K right now. I was not the first woman he was with, but he had repented and waited with me.
Please remember that all sin and fall short, and we all have a past. If God is wonderful and just to forgive, I believe those who act with chivalry, sincerity and Godliness should not be written off so cavalierly.
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“The job of the church is to teach The Bible, not to comfort women (or men).
It’s better to not have these people who just seek comfort. Let them join the world than to poison the church.”
I’m not real sure how you meant this, but let’s consider what Jesus came to do.
Isa. 61: “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound; ”
IMO one of the main things that needs to change in marriages and in relationships between members of the body of Christ is that young men need to respect young women (and all women) treating them with the same considerations they would like for themselves.
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and also verse 3
“3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”
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Thanks, TL. There are many more than these but I don’t have time tonight.
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Much of the problem with the church is caused by the church trying too hard to be relevant in the world, in the process loosing her salt and her light, blending in with the world, becoming just like the world.
The church’s job is not to comfort people, it’s the truth that will comfort people, and the church’s job is to preach that truth, the good news.
I’ve read quite a few of Mara’s posts that basically blame the church for not comforting women, and so those women flee the church and into feminism.
That’s where I was coming from.
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Anon: “Where did I say line up with my version of the Bible? I’m just saying that the church should not compromise biblical teaching in the sake of comforting people.
People find comfort when they accept Jesus and the truth found in The Bible.
The church should not change to comfort people, the people need to change to find comfort.”
And where did I say we need to compromise biblical teaching for the sake of comforting people. It’s off-balance teaching that is hurting these women.
As far as biblical is concerned–
Slavery is Biblical.
Polygamy is Biblical.
Having a concubine is Biblical.
Because they are all found in the Bible with rules and regulations concerning them.
But being biblical/found-in-the-Bible doesn’t make something right or applicable in our culture as was discussed so eloquently on the MUST-HEAR debate on slavery thread here.
https://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2010/06/26/must-hear-a-great-debate-on-whether-the-bible-condones-slavery/
Women are fleeing the church because a certain biblical (as in, men taking the liberty of picking and choosing which Bible verses are important to them) teaching is encrouching on the true gospel and making it bitter, and, using a word you brought up, a poison to their souls.
These women need the comfort of the True and Living God to know that God did not sanction the abuses they suffered, nor set up the system that was used to abuse them in church or family. God is NO male-chauvanist pig. He gets accused of that, but not because of anything HE did. It is what men have done in His name that brought this reproach on Him and shut the door of fellowship and healing between Him and these women.
Speaking of Biblical, I notice that no one here is concerned with the fact that we have not kept a biblical principle that is mentioned no less than five times in the New Testament. Four times by Paul and once by Peter who stands as the second witness that this teaching is set and unalterable. It hurts no one, yet men dismiss it as a cultural thing with no regard to living biblical lives because it makes them uncomfortable in this western cultere of ours.
So guys, when you are ready to follow this doctrine with all your heart, soul, and strength and joyfully submit to it as the Word of God, then you might have a leg to stand on to demand others follow other ‘biblical’ teaching even though it makes them uncomfortable.
Romans 16:16; I Corinthians 16:20; II Corinthians 13:12; I Thessalonians 5:26; and I Peter 5:14.
Please give these ignored scriptures you utmost attention and respect as they represent a lost doctrine that will save Western civilization as we know it. And if you have a problem with them, take it up with Paul and Peter, not me. They are the ones who gave the command under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I’m only the messanger. And you know that we cannot compromise sound biblical teaching for the sake of comforting anyone for any reason. ;)
(How’d I do Shalini? Did I handle it with logic and reason and a little bit of humor to lighten the situation up a bit, even though I felt somewhat frustrated?)
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You got me all wrong there. Read my posts and you’ll find that I actually didn’t argue for any interpretation of scriptures.
I’m not about “your interpretation is wrong, mine is right”. You’d find most of the time my comments are about the principles.
I don’t think my interpretation and understanding of the scriptures is perfect, so I try to understand how other interprets them and learn.
I believe that the church needs to stick to preaching the truth. Yes we comfort people, but not at the expense of preaching the truth!
If the truth hurts, we must still preach it and teach it. If you want comfort from the church at the expense of the truth, then I believe the church should not give that false comfort.
Even if the truth drives many people away from church, the church must remain preaching the truth.
Now, having said all that, I do disagree with you on the topic of men as head of the family. I think there are too many verses that would be difficult to reconcile with your view. But I’m open to renew my understanding … and that’s true for any topic as far as I’m concern
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I thank you for this much, Anon.
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“As far as biblical is concerned–
Slavery is Biblical.
Polygamy is Biblical.
Having a concubine is Biblical.
Because they are all found in the Bible with rules and regulations concerning them.”
Perhaps you should learn from apologetic articles like this one for a start:
http://www.mandm.org.nz/2010/04/contra-mundum-slavery-and-the-old-testament.html
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I find some of the things that Mara says very disturbing. It’s not just that she believes these things, and attacks Christians in public, but that she seems to be unaware of the Christian responses to these charges. I think that the marginal blogs that she links to (instead of linking to research studies and policies) shows me that she is fishing for any anecdote that will confirm her view, rather than looking at research to find the truth and then conforming her view to that. Like when she denies that bio-dads are safer for children by merely asserting the bare existence of ONE abusive bio-dad instead of conforming her view to the actual numbers. It’s disturbing to me as a Christian man. It does not make me feel safe. I want Christian women to conform their views to the way the world really is. Not to invent their own views and then look for a case here or there to confirm it, and then not to seek out the Christian rebuttal. Every time she attacks Christianity and the Bible, it’s like she is attacking Christ himself – diminishing his reputation and asserting her own emotions and experiences as objective truth. It’s scary. How do you deal with someone like that in a close-quarters situation?
I had another woman this week send me a story from the radical feminist web site Jezebel, which had unsubstantiated reports from a radical feminist communist journalist claiming that she was sexually assaulted by police after being arrested. She worked for a fringe organization and the story appeared on a fringe web site. The police said that everything was video-taped and they could disprove everything the reporter was saying. The article did not mention that the reporter laid any criminal charges. It sounds to me that she just made up the fake charges to slam people who arrested her, and to play the victim in order to get sympathy. She had no evidence. And yet the radical feminists on Jezebel ate this up like it was experimental observations confirming that water boils at 100 degrees Celsius. They believed it because they wanted to believe it. Words were just used to confirm emotions, without any defensible link to objective reality.
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Anon, I’ll give your article a look-see when I can. If don’t lose the link in all these posts.
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Okay, I read it. So what’s your point?
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Was just responding to your comment:
“As far as biblical is concerned–
Slavery is Biblical.”
Now you know it isn’t
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Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.
9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I have it on good authority that the Bible IS “THE” instruction manual for Christian living. I’ve also learned from well respected teachers that the plain reading of Scripture is the preferred way to do it and the roles now save you. Or perhaps it was that roles will save Western Civilization as we know it. Can’t exactly remember. But I do remember how concerned they were over the destruction of roles.
So why aren’t people concerned over Biblical masterhood and slavehood?
And why are they being so inconsistent in their interpretation of the word, picking and choosing which instructions we want to follow and which ones we want to ignore. I’m seeing cafeteria religion here, not plain reading and consistant acceptance of the blue print for ‘Biblical living’
;)
Wintery, you can send Shalini my email now if you like. My first post is up.
Shalini, let me know if you change your mind about coming. I understand if you do.
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Shouldn’t you be seeking to give a defense of these passages on slavery instead of using them to to undermine the authority of the Bible? I mean – if you listened to that debate I posted on this issue, and read the post from MandM, this should not be a problem for you any more – right? Surely by now you understand the difference between indentured servitude and slavery? Talking about “the plain meaning” of the text makes no sense when the word and the practice are totally different from practices from the modern era that happen to use the same name “slavery” but are completely different.
I think you should be careful about spending all your time attacking Christianity and the Bible. When you sign on, the goal is to give Christianity the benefit of the doubt and see how you can agree with it. I’ve posted ample material to correct your view. I am not for a plain reading of Scripture – I am neither a fideist nor a populist. I am for a reading of Scripture that is scholarly, informed and seeks the intent of the author. I am concerned with genre, textual context, and historical context. There’s many a misunderstanding that arises when someone refuses to study troubling passages more to find out what they really meant to the author in the time and place in which they were written.
I am also not sure what slavery has to do with the fact that men are imprisoned for inability to pay alimony and child support, and how this injustice may deter single Christian men from marrying, which is the original topic of the post.
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First, the scriptures I listed were on Roman slavery, not Hebrew slavery. They were ruled by Roman law, not Hebrew. And I’ll be the first to admit that the laws God set up in the OT are far more just than any slavery laws of any nation before and since. Same goes for polygamy, the status of concubines and women in general.
(Shoot, there is a test for men to use if they think their wives are being unfaithful that I’m sure would make certain feminists hotter than Hades. But I see it as a protection for women against unreasonable, jealous husbands. But that’s another story.)
Second, I knew when I made that post that I was pushing hard and fully expected you or someone else to push hard back. In fact, if no one did I was going to question if everyone was feeling all right, do I need to just comment light and fluffy for a while, or what?
Anyway, I knew that when I demonstrated absurdity by being absurd, it would get a reaction.
Please react. Prove me wrong, if you can.
That is what good, healthy debate is about.
But I guess what I’m really having a hard time with, what I’m really getting tired of is the assumption that I am attacking the Bible and Christianity.
You are way off on that.
I’m attacking a doctrine that I see taking over the church and hurting people.
Disagree with me on that. Defend your view of that doctrine.
Disagree up one side and down the other.
I know you believe it is true and it is the gospel and that this doctrine has saving power for family and nation.
But my disagreement with it is not based on disagreeing with the Bible. It’s disagreeing with the teachers of that doctrine.
There is a big difference.
And there is just as much good, honest, scholarly work on the egal side as the comp side. Just as much if not more.
I know of former comps who set out to disprove egal thought and when they found the body of evidence, evidence the comp teachers ignore and sometimes even hide, they turned.
But they didn’t turn because they were mad at God, Christianity, or the Bible. They turned because of the volume of scholarly evidence they encountered once they stop believing the strawmen arguments giving by comp leaders.
One strawman argument is that egals don’t respect scripture.
This couldn’t be further from the truth. Yet it is put forth as fact. And I see it in your attitude about my position. Disagreeing with this doctrine you hold dear is undermining scripture. That is a teaching on the comp side. Problem is, that teaching doesn’t make comp right. It makes it cultish.
Guess what I’m saying is, bottom line, if this is going to deteriorate to a, “You don’t respect the scriptures” then I can’t participate.
I fully understand if you don’t want me to participate anymore. I do push hard. Probably, many times I push a bit too hard. Forgive me. But just as you fully believe your position, so do I believe mine.
And sometimes you push me hard. Perhaps I’m misreading your pushing as permission to push back. If so, I apologize for that too.
But I don’t apologize for attacking Christianity and the Bible because I am not doing that.
I’m questioning a doctrine. And I have good reason to question it.
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Douglas Groothuis is an egalitarian guy. I respect him a lot.
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Thank you.
Could you please remove the link from my name in the above post. That was an accident.
Thanks again.
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Wow, I love that, M! And it’s preceded in the last citation by this:
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
I think this site is devoted too often to warning them that are unruly and too little (or not at all) about the others, particularly the comforting, supporting, patience, following that which is good, rejoicing, praying without ceasing, and giving thanks to God aspects. (WK, I know you are in complete disagreement, but I’d like to hear how you disagree with these commands, not how you disagree with “feminization).”
Just wondering how you can conflate these essential activities with the downfall of churches.
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LOL I don’t know about WK … but I’m actually a happy chappy guy :D
I love debating because I learn best from such activity, it challenges the mind and make it think hard. Although sometime it can get too heated and become a quarrel which is terrible.
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“Much of the problem with the church is caused by the church trying too hard to be relevant in the world, in the process loosing her salt and her light, blending in with the world, becoming just like the world”
This is a good point anon. The most despicable way that the church copies the world is in it’s insistence of corporate systems. Instead of godly men and women called and equipped by God seeking to lay down their lives sacrificially in serving God’s people according to the directions of the Holy Spirit, we have corporate structures giving glory and honor to humans. And these corporate structures seldom have much to offer hurting and damaged souls that need the answers only the Holy Spirit can give.
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And what do you mean by corporate structure?
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Anon,
Scripture structures the church with ministries and serving, people laying down their lives to do the will of God in helping the rest of the body of Christ. Yes, we give them honor, respect and are to set ourselves to be willing to be instructed.
Corporate structures have bosses, owners, presidents to whom everyone under them must obey. The business is owned by them and everyone else must please them to get ahead and must fulfill their goals.
In Christ’s church, we all ‘own’ it with Christ because we are the church. It is God’s goals we are to align ourselves with, which we see in Scripture and in God’s personal calling on lives. We don’t get to make up our own goals. It’s God’s directions we are to follow. Leaders are to be a team, not one person and the team is to work together to follow God’s directives.
It is unfortunate that today many church are a strong mix of corporate structures and Biblical structures.
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I don’t know churches with owners/presidents that the church goers must obey. Except perhaps the Catholic church.
Churches I know do send missionaries to dangerous countries where the governments are hostile to Christianity.
The church I attend for example has missionaries in China, Thailand, Arab nations, the jungle of Papua. Building orphanages, elderly homes, and so on.
I have one close friend who almost died when her church was attacked by terrorist bomb. She could identify the bomber, but was silenced by the military of that country.
Christians who are cynical about Christianity need to look what’s happening outside their own comfort zones.
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“Christians who are cynical about Christianity need to look what’s happening outside their own comfort zones.”
Agreed.
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Good grief, people. If we were to listen only to Wintery and co, we’d believe that women are almost exclusively to blame for the bad state of the world and if were were to listen only to Mara and co, we’d believe that men are almost exclusively to blame.
The bottom line is that both men AND women are fallen creatures in need of God’s redemption. Let’s stop trying to pin the blame on the opposite sex. This is exactly the sort of strife that Satan revels in. Instead, let’s all get over ourselves, develop a God-centred approach and go about making a difference by restoring manhood and womanhood to what it is meant to be.
Let’s stop being reactionary and cynical about the opposite sex. Instead, let’s be realistic with regard to the challenges but hopeful, in light of the amazing power of God to forgive us our sin and restore what is broken. And I don’t mean “hopeful” in a wishful thinking sense, I mean it in the sense of having hope because of a certainty. God is powerful, people! Not just powerful… He’s all-powerful. He’s unstoppable! And He has already won the victory. Jesus did it all on the Cross. And one day it WILL all be fully realised. Not maybe. DEFINITELY. It’s there in Revelation. So be strong and of good courage. Join your Commander-in-chief in spiritual battle with confidence and zeal, because He has won already.
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Well, not every woman is like you, Mary. But if they were then I wouldn’t be complaining at all.
Anyway, my complaints are all evidence-based. I just argue the evidence. Did you see the post I just put up on the hook-up culture? EVIDENCE.
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Hm. I shall take that as a compliment.
Yes, your complaints are evidence-based. That’s all well and good. But you’re only addressing ONE issue: feminism. Yes, it’s bad. Agreed. But the kind of feminism you decry is a product of a bigger problem: humanism. The architects of humanism were mainly men. Humanism says it’s all about MEEEE, MEEEE, MEEEE. So feminists, who have bought into humanism, say it’s all about MEEEE, MEEEE, MEEEE.
Also, please stop equating women with feminism. Grrrrr… Some of us get a rash at the mere thought of third wave feminism in particular. Plenty of men are complicit in the rise of feminism too. 10% of men actually identify as feminists (!) and lots more just go with the flow because they enjoy the opportunity it offers for easy sexual access to women. Like Alisha says, this constant harping on about feminism just comes across as a whiny “see how bad women are” rant. And the reactionary “oh well, we won’t get married then” is positively childish. Where’s the courage, Mr.Knight? Take up your lance! Ride into battle! I know I’m being a bit mean, but it’s for your own good. You can take it.
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Yeah, that’s not gonna work on me though, because I’m not stupid and uninformed about the risks. I can do better for God without marriage, thank you very much. It’s not going to help God for me to sign over my net worth to divorce lawyers, state employees and some horrible feminist woman.
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As if you don’t have a choice about the woman you marry! I believe this is called cutting off your nose to spite your face… There are godly reasons for choosing to remain single (such as having more time to devote to God) and if you cited one of those I would applaud you, but this is not one of them. This reason is ungodly, my friend.
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OH, I feel so guilty now that a horrible feminist has chastised me – maybe I should get married… oh, wait, what’s that on my desk? No-fault divorce laws? Mandatory housework laws? 50% income tax laws? Domestic violence laws criminalizing making a woman feel bad? News reports about “battered wives” being exonerated for murdering the husbands they chose to marry? Well… never mind. I’ll stay single. Nice try, though.
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Whoa, WK! Okay, you are getting whiny and cynical. I know you are joking about Mary, which shows you haven’t turned to the dark side.
But you REALLY are starting to worry me. If any of us provides you with a point you agree with, it seems like you quickly acknowledge it only to counter with more cold, ugly facts about the state of women, marriage, the world, etc. I don’t want to write things here meant for encouragement only to have you concede it contains some logical fact in it, then ignore it straight out.
I was very happy reading your white rose post, and I hope you can find more of that chivalrous spirit within you to write some more balanced articles.
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Yes, there’s a thing women do where they try to shame men as cowards for being prudent – I have to immediately stop that when I see it. It’s not good for anyone when women do that.
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Prudence is choosing a wife carefully. Cowardice is saying “I’ll never get married because the stats are bad”. As if you get a wife by the lottery or something! I call a spade a spade and I’ll call cowardice cowardice when I see it. And it’s very much for your good when I say this.
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Rrraaarr! I just want to let you know that I can handle that, and you are totally fine.
Here you go:
I don’t know how that could be you, but it is!
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Of course you can handle that.
I dig that picture. Especially the flower. Nice touch. Oooooh, and I get a light sabre AND a sword. YEAHH!!! Rrraaarr!
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Well, I have to hold women to a standard in public, and then in private I spoil them rotten with love, attention and affection! The women I like hate feminism anyway.
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“OH, I feel so guilty now that a horrible feminist has chatised me – maybe I should get married… oh, wait, what’s that on my desk? No-fault divorce laws? Mandatory housework laws? 50% income tax laws? Domestic violence laws criminalizing making a woman feel bad? News reports about “battered wives” being exonerated for murdering the husbands thy chose to marry? Well… never mind. I’ll stay single. Nice try, though.”
Wintery,
1. Didn’t see Mary say she was a feminist, or horrible! Wow!
2. what are mandatory housework laws??
3. what’s wrong with 50% income (or divorce settlement) laws. Are you of the opinion that it all belongs to the man?
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She’s not really a feminist. But she is a giant lobster who sails the South African seas, a-pirating! I am not making that up. She has a hook, an eye-patch, a peg leg… everything. Isn’t that right, Mary?
Mandatory housework laws in socialist Spain.
Woman murders man for criticizing her for falling for the Nigerian-check-hoax, gets a few months in therapy and custody of the kids. There was never any independent evidence of abuse, not even verbal. The children denied there was any abuse.
I had to edit your comment to delete remarks about me personally.
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Yes, I’m a pirate! Arrrrrrrrr!
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Are you going to keel-haul me, or make me walk the plank?
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You can choose. I’m nice like that.
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Anyway, thanks for the link about the Spanish housework laws. In my memories of Spanish men and women, the men are fairly prone to expecting the women to do everything. They seem to figure if they go to work and come home with the money, they’ve contributed more than enough to the marital duties. As for making it a law. That’s interesting, but stretching the interference in marriages.
I think most American men know better. When American women work, though, they still do more than an equal share of the housework. I suspect that generally many people think a paying job is worth more than manual labors of keeping up a household.
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I think that the most important thing is the relationships that each family member has with God. Everything the married couple does should be focused on that. They shouldn’t do anything in the marriage to wreck that vertical relationship for the adults or the children.
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Totally agree! :)
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THIS I can heartily agree with.
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Regarding the newsdaily articles, it’s really impossible what to believe from a newspaper article. I know personally of a woman who was married to a pastor who regularly abused her, even to slamming her around, strangling her and threatening to kill her. Fortunately she got away with her children but the man was so charismatic in public that no one would have believed he was anything but a faithful kind husband.
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And the point is?
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Probably the same kind of point that Wintery has when he posts about a divorced father not getting to see his children, or another father having his daughter murdered by a step father. There are certain sectors that don’t get a lot of sympathy. Divorce fathers and abused minister’s wives.
Could be wrong on that one. But that’s my best guess, considering the direction things have been going here.
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WK’s point was to point out how the legal system is not fair.
With this minister’s abuse case, is your point that the Bible is not fair towards women?
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No. My point is that the church is unfair. It is more important to keep up appearances than to deal with real issues.
There is a verse that encourages people to come to church leaders when there is a dispute between two believers. I wish the church were at a point where this could actually be done. But she’s not.
Because I’m seeing a pattern here. People who go to the state court systems get the stuffings beat out of them. Abusers, both male and female, continue to abuse on into the court system and use it to continue to abuse both the children and the non-abusing parent.
We see this in Wintery’s articles on court abuse against men. And to bring balance to this issue and to stop making this a gender issue but an abuse issue, I bring a couple of links. First from the mouth of babes.
http://courageouskids.net/
And one explanation of the problem.
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““Socialism scares me because it’s not blatantly black. It gives people the feeling of righteousness and goodness (which we all oh-so-crave to be) that people are completely blind to atrocities it commits. Like the public funded abortions in the name of health care. And women seem to be buying it so easily. Mind you, I am not saying women are naive, but they are beguiled by the faux charity socialism speaks of. ””
Some women are beguiled because they are simply not given all the facts. And these are usually young women whose families have not spent the time to prepare them for life in the real world.
Wintery says……”Better for Christians to give to charity.”
Even better is for Christians to give the help themselves. Real people helping real people.
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TL, we are in complete agreement.
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“With this minister’s abuse case, is your point that the Bible is not fair towards women?”
1st Bible is a written record, not a person. If you mean is God fair, God is more than fair, God is just and merciful. But my point had nothing to do with that.
My point in bringing up the minister’s abuse case is that we cannot trust newspapers. And we cannot always trust public opinion as public opinion does not always know all the facts.
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Hi there,
There have always been some casualty in war. However we cannot use the casulty to define or camoflaged the necessity for war. The real issue is that there are violence in our christian homes whether it is perpetuated by men or woman it is wrong and goes against the teaching of the bible. We must work together to find a solution that is equitable and fair. I am sorry that I do not empathetize with Mr. Dolan situation. Quite frankly He has a weak case as far as I am concerned. Why can’t he get a job, any job to support his children do you realize that some men even quit their job to avoid paying alimony and child support? Women are left to take care of their children the best way they can. Yet the bible teaches that if a man does not take care of his family he has left the faith and is a infidel. Women are often left to fend for themselves and their children with the breakdown of a marriage while some men do whatever they can to avoid paying child support. Women are left with no choice but to use the legal system to their advantage. A system by the way that sometimes further penialize them such as in equalization of property.
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