Tag Archives: Manosphere

MUST-HEAR: Jennifer Roback Morse debates on marriage at Columbia University

Cloning her would solve the marriage problem
Dr. J makes marriage interesting and fun!

Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse defends marriage at Columbia University in this short hour-long exchange. This is your chance to hear how anti-child advocates of same-sex marriage really are. And Dr. J links SSM to unilateral divorce at the end of the Q&A, too. Awesome! This debate really needed to go for twice the time, and I look forward to hearing MORE debates from Dr. J.

Details:

Columbia University’s Federalist Society hosts a debate between Dr J and Professor Katherine Franke based on the question “Is Marriage Equality Possible?”  About an hour of audio includes opening position (Dr J), arguments (Prof. Franke), and rebuttal (Dr J), as well as a brief question-and-answer period.

The MP3 file is here.

Dr. J’s opening speech (15 min.)

Two basic contentions:

  • 1) same-sex marriage is not the equivalent of traditional marriage
  • 2) if we legislate that they are equal, then we are really redefining marriage by changing the essential purpose of marriage

A case study from Ireland:

  • a known sperm donor for a lesbian couple was excluded from having a relationship with the child he conceived
  • after the child was born, the sperm donor wanted regular contact with the child, but the women opposed giving him access
  • same-sex marriage requires that courts are able to assign parental rights instead of having rights assigned biologically, as with traditional marriage
  • That is why SSM is different from TM

What is the purpose of marriage?

  • Marriage is about attaching mothers and fathers to children, and mothers and fathers to one another
  • Children are born helpless from two opposite-sex parents and they need parental guidance and care during development
  • In TM, there is no third party needed in order to have a child
  • In TM, the biological parents have rights and responsibilities for the child
  • TM is about providing the child with justice
  • Every child is entitled a relationship to both biological parents, and is entitled to care, protection and nourishment from both parents, and every child is entitled to a stable family environment
  • the problem is that children don’t have standing to sue for these rights in court
  • so the purpose of marriage is that we have a social construct to provide these rights to children naturally, without the state having to intervene

The purpose of marriage according to SSM?

  • In SSM, the essential child-centered  purpose marriage is replaced with new purposes like pooling resources and having same-sex couples recognized by society

SSM redefines marriage in four ways:

  • it diminishes the entitlement of children to a relationship with both biological parents
  • it diminishes the identification of parental roles with biology
  • it requires the state to determine parental relationships, instead of recognizing biological parents
  • it enshrines the idea that mothers and fathers are interchangeable, that children don’t really need mothers AND fathers

Dr. Franke’s opening speech (20 min.)

Hard cases make bad law 1: the presumption of paternity

  • consider the case where a mother is married and has an affair resulting in a child
  • the Supreme Court has ruled that the father of the child has no right of contact
  • this is a case where marriage gets in the way of biological parents having a relationship with the child
  • so it can be the case where marriage is in conflict with the relationships to biological parents

Hard cases make bad law 2: the purpose of marriage can be changed

  • marriages was used to keep peace between families and communities
  • marriage used to be about trading and trafficking of women
  • so the concern for offspring was not always the greatest concern

TM and SSM are both equally able to create stability for children:

  • same-sex unions are just as stable for children as TM marriages

Same-sex unions do provide justice for the child:

  • giving the adults in same-sex couples the social recognition that opposite sex married couples have is good for children

Children can sue in court

  • children can use guardians to sue their parents in court to get their rights

Opposing SSM is racism

  • opposing same-sex marriage is equivalent to racism
  • we could abolish marriage completely and let individuals form private contracts, then the state would really be neutral on marriage

Dr. J’s rebuttal speech (5 min.)

The state cannot be neutral on marriage

  • what the deinstutionalization of marriage means is that the private contracts are made by adults and children will have no consideration in those contracts

Regarding the adultery case

  • the presumption of paternity is there to protect the marriage
  • such borderline cases almost never happen with TM, whereas in SSM these third party problems occur in 100% of the cases

Children are not happy being separated from their biological parents

  • adults do not have a right to exclude a child’s biological parents from having a relationship with them, and children are often not happy being excluded from their biological parents

Related posts

Jennifer Roback Morse podcasts on same-sex marriage and prop 8

Cloning her would solve the marriage problem
Dr. Jennifer Roback Morse

From the Ruth Institute podcast page.

An update on the federal trial on California’s Proposition 8

The MP3 file is here. (from 1/19/2010)

Topics:

  • what is the prop 8 federal court trial about?
  • what is at stake in the prop 8 trial?
  • what is the only argument in favor of SSM?
  • what is the purpose of marriage?
  • what is the end goal of the marriage redefiners?
  • what would happen if sexual orientation were protected like race?
  • what happens to people today who disagree with SSM?
  • does SSM diminish the biological basis for assigning parenthood?

Reponding to Ted Olson’s pro-SSM arguments:

  • traditional marriage violate the Equal Protection clause
  • people have a right to demand respect from other people
  • children don’t need a mother and father
  • there are no differences between same-sex and opposite-sex couples

Understanding same-sex marriage

The MP3 file is here. (from 1/21/2010)

Topics:

  • how did Dr. J get interested in the marriage issue?
  • what got the pro-marriage Prop 8 movement started?
  • what do we know about the federal judge in the prop 8 trial?
  • how will the school curriculum change if SSM becomes legal?
  • how same-sex unions are a stepping stone to legalizing SSM
  • how SSM empowers the state to regulate private relationships
  • children have a right to a relationship with their parents
  • how SSM threatens the rights of free speech and association
  • how the purpose of SSM differs than the purpose of TM
  • how SSM expands the state’s power to coerce individuals
  • how the province of Quebec opposes heterosexuality as normal
  • SSM’s goal is the elimination of sex differences
  • how the SSM agenda is an extension of third-wave feminism

Wonderful stuff. I really, really like listening to her talk about these things!

Dr. J’s wonderful blog is here.  Please give it a visit! She has really been writing a lot of her own thoughts into her posts lately. It’s very fun and engaging!

It’s too bad that more single women don’t talk about the things that Dr. J talks about. Do you know what single Christian men think of when a single Christian woman comes along and starts talking about the role of husband/father, marriage and children? He thinks about marriage and children, of course, and it’s fun to talk about things like that.

How Christian women can make Christian men marry without using sex appeal

I just want to jot down a few points about this in brief – this will not be a comprehensive treatment. This is a rush job – I’m leaving things out, it will probably come across as very insulting and scatter-brained.

First, I am addressing this to women who are interested in marriage and children. If you are a woman and you are not interested in marriage and children, this will be no good to you. The reason why is because this method only works for men who are interested in marriage and children.

I’m addressing this to an imaginary Christian woman, whom I will henceforth refer to as “you”.

The wrong approach

Here are some things that women do wrong when trying to get a man to marry.

  • choosing a man based on non-Christian criteria or just selfishness
  • choosing a man based on his appearance of first impressions
  • choosing a man based on whether he is fun and popular
  • thinking that Christianity is a check box on an application form, rather than a 3-hour exam
  • thinking of marriage as bliss that will work out somehow, without planning and effort
  • not understanding what men are really like
  • not understanding what children are really like
  • not understanding what the Bible has to say about marriage
  • thinking that you can make a man love you by using sex appeal or sex itself
  • thinking that acting like a man is what a man wants

In short, marriage should be understood as a task, requiring planning by both partners, as well as study, skills and a will. You’re not picking a man, you’re picking a plan, the plan that you think will help God the most. And there is absolutely no need to resort to sex or alcohol or anything order to discuss these things. What actually works on me is writing me a good long essay about anything. Because marriage is more about communication and relationships than anything else. You can have intimacy without alcohol just by turning the conversation to topics that matter and writing about them.

The lever

Since you will not be using sex, you might as well get clear on what you can use. You can use three things.

  • The Bible, theology, church history and apologetics
  • The man’s own plan to marry and the steps he’s taken so far
  • Your own willingness to do whatever it takes to make your relationship please God

The basic idea is that you are going to find out what marriage in a Christian context is about. Then you are going to find out the man’s plan for marriage within the context of his Christian worldview. Then you are going to convince him that the most rational thing to do in order to achieve his plan is to marry you. You’re going to convince him that he will get a much higher degree of success with you, than without you. Not to mention the possibility of you bearing children and then helping him to parent children who will also count for God.

You’re the helper

Biblically, the role of the woman in the marriage is supposed that of helper. That doesn’t mean that you cannot have your own plan as well, it just means that the way you are going to have a relationship with a man is by helping him with his plan. And in order to help him with his plan, you have to talk to him about his plan. You have to show him that he isn’t going to get dragged away from his high ideals by you if he marries you. On the contrary – you are going to catapult him into the stars, in ways he cannot even imagine.

Here’s what you can do.

  • convince yourself that Christianity is true by studying apologetics, etc.
  • read about chivalry, romance and courtly love
  • get used to the idea that God comes above your own needs and desires
  • begin to view men as tools for serving God instead of tools for serving you
  • learn to evaluate men on the quality of their plans and whether it will help God
  • spend time writing and talking to the man about his plan (eye contact talking)
  • learn to hold your temper in check in order to gain his confidence
  • study to find out more about his goals, and how to achieve them
  • study to find out more about what forces are working against him
  • buy him things to help him with his plan
  • assign him tasks to do that you think will help him to serve God better
  • think of solutions to problems that he is facing and tell him
  • solve those problems and then report to him that the problems are solved
  • form his character by approving and affirming Christian/family behaviors
  • practice evangelism and apologetics to show that you care about nurturing other people’s worldviews
  • take on difficult long-term commitments like starting a business, being a missionary, earning degrees

Who wouldn’t want to have someone around who really knows them, who they can really talk to, and who is always improving their character and helping them to solve problems? The more you study what he is doing and learn things that can help him, the more he will want to have you around everywhere he goes. Every skill you get has potential for solving problems that you both may face when you start a family. It’s actually a very good idea to collect useful skills, make money and have a plan of your own. And I’ll explain why.

Nothing impresses a man more than a woman who is passionate, but rational, about some issue bigger than her own needs. Look at Michele Bachmann and Jennifer Roback Morse. Men are chivalrous. They want to protect and provide for women who are chaste and honorable. But they don’t want to waste time on women who are not engaged in some sort of noble enterprise. And they don’t want to waste time trying to commit to a woman who tries to manipulate them by rushing them into sex, either. Working on your own plan communicates to a man that you are more interested in helping God than in your own needs.

Women should be able to persuade people without getting personal or straying from arguments and evidence. Standing up for your view should be easy for you, but don’t overpower the man just to get your way. Ideally, you should win arguments with him because your ideas are just plain more effective at serving God than his ideas. Of course, if you think he’s right, then go along with him, by all means. I have actually gotten to the point with two women where arguing is a recreational activity than always ends in compliments for them about how happy I am that I can be myself with them. And that’s what a man really wants, anyway.

Marriage and children

But there’s more to being a helper than that. There’s the duties of a wife and mother. Marriage today is an enormous risk and responsibility for a man. The way to persuade a man to marry is to show him that you have studied his concerns, that his concerns are actually much worse than he knows, and that you have solutions to all of his problems. Show him that you have studied these things in detail, that you have written about these concerns passionately in public, and that you are serious about solving them. If you can’t solve the problems, (e.g. – hate crime bills, taxes for public schools), then show him that you are informed about these issues, on his side, and have at least spoken or written passionately about it somewhere public.

Here are some ideas for learning how to be a good wife and mother.

  • study what men think about wives, marriage and children
  • study threats to marriage from taxes, family courts, public schools, etc.
  • study the risks that men are taking on by deciding to marry and become fathers
  • think and write about how you can make your husband and children a gift for God
  • understand the proper care and feeding of husbands and children – how do they thrive?
  • practice taking care others – plants, cars, friends, pets, elderly, children, the poor
  • study to find out what divorce does to men and children
  • study what fatherlessness does to a child
  • study to understand the competition for liberty and resources between family and state
  • practice arguing with men about facts and policies, disregarding your own person, and focusing on the arguments
  • you should absolutely abhor feminism and argue against it at every opportunity
  • be ready to drop everything at a moment’s notice and focus your attention on your relationship

Remember, the way that you treat a man in terms of encouraging and supporting his plan is the main way that you tell him two things: 1) that you will continue to do this after the marriage, so that he doesn’t have to give up his noble plan, and 2) that you will be encouraging and supporting his children towards their goals, so that he can have complete confidence in leaving the children with you until they get old enough for him to take over more of the parenting, (say, age 6 and on). If you help him, then pleasing you will become part of his plan.

It is extremely important to a man that he can trust you to teach the children right from wrong, and the Christian faith, especially when it goes against your compassionate feminine nature. I have actually seen this done, where a mother understands parenting and child development so much that she won’t yield to a screaming disobedient child because he has to learn the habits that will see him on to a Ph.D in physics. What’s even more fun is when she explains to you why she’s doing it, and where she studied it. That what makes a man happy.

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