Why do women flock to movies like Switch and Eat, Pray, Love?

My friend Robert, who has an amazing apologetics-enabled wife, asked me to write about this topic. And Mary helped me to edit it, because the first version was really really mean. Now the last half of the post is a lot more positive, thanks to her input. The meanest part is right after the movie review excerpts and before the advice for Christians.

First, a little blurb about Switch.

Excerpt:

It’s a feminist adage that “a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle”, but Hollywood actress Jennifer Aniston is taking that message a step further, saying that women don’t need to “fiddle” with men in order to have and raise a child, thanks to artificial insemination.

Aniston, 41, is the star of an upcoming Miramax film “Switch,” in which Aniston’s character decides she is tired of waiting for a man to come into her life to have a baby, and elects for artificial insemination. Apparently the film is supposed to be a romantic comedy, as it turns out that the best friend of Aniston’s character is the sperm donor.

A reporter at a Sunday press conference in Los Angeles, where the actress was highlighting her movie, questioned Aniston’s character, suggesting it was “selfish” to deprive a child of a father in order to fulfill a personal dream of parenthood.

“Women are realizing more and more that you don’t have to settle, they don’t have to fiddle with a man to have that child,” the actress asserted in their exchange. “They are realizing if it’s that time in their life and they want this part, they can do it with or without that.””The point of the movie is, what is that which defines family?” Aniston continued. “It isn’t necessarily the traditional mother, father, two children and a dog named Spot.”

She stated, “Love is love and family is what is around you and who is in your immediate sphere.”

Second, a little blurb about Eat, Pray, Love.

Excerpt:

The movie stars Julia Roberts as Liz Gilbert, a writer who suddenly decides she doesn’t like being married to her husband any more.

[…]…Liz decides to visit India to look up her former lover’s Hindu guru. At the guru’s place, she gets into Hinduism, including Hindu meditation, really heavily. She also befriends a young Indian girl going into an arranged marriage and a troubled former alcoholic who’s lost his family. From all these experiences, Liz comes to believe in meditation and pantheism, where the believer uses meditation to become like God. She also comes to believe she has to forgive herself, not apologize to the people she’s harmed, especially her former husband, who seems to be a decent, sincere man.

Finally, Liz heads to Bali to consult an elderly spiritual healer and fortune teller she had met before. In Bali, Liz helps a battered wife, finds further spiritual anti-enlightenment and a new lover.

[…]The biggest problem, however, is that the female protagonist is a selfish woman trying to find personal enlightenment and happiness apart from the God of the Bible. Sadly, she jumps from man to man. Even worse, she eventually finds spiritual darkness in the false religion of Hinduism and pantheism, the belief that everyone is god or has a piece of god inside herself.

Another problem with the movie is it presents a negative, feminist view of marriage.

I know that many young unmarried women really really like these movies – even Christian women – so what message are they finding so attractive?

Here’s what the popularity of these movies tells me about what young unmarried Western women believe. (This is the mean part)

Moral obligations are bad

Young, unmarried Western women oppose the idea that their will to be happy can be constrained by moral obligations, especially obligations to their husband and children. They want relationships to be all about fulfilling their emotional needs, which often includes their need for a career so they can be just like men. They want to be able to enter relationships like marriage and parenting when it pleases them, and then to walk away from those relationships when it doesn’t please them. They also want to avoid being judged morally when they act selfishly and destructively. And they believe that any financial difficulties they suffer that result from acting selfishly can be solved with bigger subsidies from the government – like single-payer health care (abortions, IVF, etc.), single-payer education, single-payer day care, etc. And when they act selfishly and impose these social costs on others, they want to be celebrated for it, perhaps even using the force of law in order to censor and coerce dissenters into celebrating their selfishness.

Knowledge and planning are bad

Young, unmarried Western women don’t invest much time and effort into learning the requirements of marriage and parenting. They don’t research the difficulties that men and children will face (e.g. – taxes, public schools), and they don’t research the needs of men and children. For example, they won’t study no-fault divorce, school choice, state-run day care, tax rates, etc., and they won’t make plans to help their husbands with any of these challenges, because it doesn’t make them happy to solve problems for other people. If they read anything then it will be probably be something that blames men for being “controlling” or blames children for not being “resilient”. They aren’t going to be  supportive of men as protectors, providers, and moral leaders, either, because they resent the traditional role of men. They are especially resentful of being supported, of being corrected on facts, and of being judged by men on moral grounds. Any authority that constrains their freedom to pursue happiness at any moment will be harshly criticized.

An amusing, entertaining man is the best man

If you read down a typical young, unmarried Western woman’s list of desirable attributes in a man, you’ll find that what they are looking for is amusement and entertainment – things that are not the main focus in a serious Christian marriage founded on self-sacrificial love and service to God. They really haven’t thought out what marriage is about, so they don’t know what men do in a marriage – they think that the best mate is the one who makes them feel happy. They especially avoid virtuous men, because those are harder to blame if they get caught being selfish. Women who watch these movies want Mr. Right Now, not Mr. Right. And that is why they are now thinking that men are not necessary for raising children – they’ve learned that “all” men are unreliable because all the men they freely chose using their hedonistic criteria didn’t pan out as husbands and fathers. This is what’s behind the impulse to replace men with sperm donors, welfare checks and social programs. “You can’t trust a man” these women say – and of course, they’re right. You can’t trust a man who is selected based on his ability to be amusing, entertaining, unchaste, passionate, exciting and amoral. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy – they get the bad men they set out to find, and the bad men abandon/abuse them. And then they blame the bad man that they freely chose for being bad!

Marriage-minded men are not willing to suppress their God-given inclinations to be protectors, providers and moral leaders, just to be approved by selfish women. And so women reject those marriage-minded men, and instead prefer to pursue dramatic, passionate hook-ups and temporary cohabitations with immature alpha males and pick-up artists. And that’s why 70% of divorces are initiated by women for “unhappiness” and 50% of all marriages end in divorce and 40% of children are born out-of-wedlock and 77% of young unmarried women voted for bigger government and more welfare in 2008. Not to mention abortion,  which is supported by most (77%) young, unmarried Western women because they vote for Democrats, a party that supports abortion to the point where they want it to be funded by pro-life taxpayers.

What about Christian women – are they any better?

(This is the nice part) Well, the ideal for Christian woman is to not be like this at all, although some are like this. Now initially, I wrote this section as a mean rant against fake Christian women, but Mary urged me to re-write it to express what Christian women ought to do to avoid all the mistakes I had before. So I hope this is better, because all my male  friends liked the first angry version better.

OK, so, Christian women are supposed to be Christian, and that means that they even have to love in Christian ways. So, instead of looking at men as a source of happiness, Christian women should think about how to love men SELF-SACRIFICIALLY. In other words, they should spend more time trying to find out what wounds a man has that are stopping him for contributing more to the Lord and heal those. Then she can turn to helping him with his work, his investing, and other major projects. And she should be rigorous about interviewing him, reading books about men and marriage, and then having a plan to invest in him as a person to make him the most effective Christian he can be. That is how a woman scores with a man, by loving him well and helping him to be a better Christian. Part of that will come back to her as he becomes a better husband and father.

Christian women also make it easier for a man to concentrate on the morals and skills that will help him in the marriage. For example, she encourages him to choose a field that will allow him to earn a living or make a difference. Good fields are fields like engineering, and engineering and engineering. That way, he can build up a nice-sized portfolio so that he is ready to shine in his traditional Biblical role as provider. She should encourage him to lift weights, fire guns and learn self-defense, and she should vote for laws that favor parental rights, school choice and firearm ownership – so that he can be a protector. And she should regularly submit herself to moral criticism so that she encourages him to hold her accountable for her selfishness to prepare him for his role as moral leader of the home. That all starts in courtship, and it takes planning to be effective. It’s not about having a good time, and having passionate experiences – it’s about intentionally and intelligently building something together. Serving together.

Not only is the woman supposed to be effective at molding a man into his role by taking an active interest in his work, strength and character, but she has to give him the opportunity to exercise and practice those skills. She should let him provide gifts to her, and defend her from skeptics and atheists. She should take his advice and learn from him about how to defend her faith. She should read books he hasn’t read so that she can solve problems for him, like problems of how to buy a home, how to rollover a 401K, and how to apply for a Ph.D. And finally, she should also encourage him in Christian virtues like chastity, chivalry and sobriety. She should be the first and best person that he can rely on to honor him for his dedication to Christian morality. She should NEVER EVER make him feel bad about being a virgin, being self-controlled and stoic, being a prude, etc. In the whole world there is no one who encourages a Christian man to be virtuous -it’s the woman’s job to stand by that man. She should also read about things like no-fault divorce, oxytocin, gender identity disorder, etc. and encourage her man to be strong in his moral convictions – even if that leaves her with no one to blame but herself when she’s selfish. She’ll just have to realize that the love of a good man is more important than being able to deflect guilt and responsibility by blaming men.

A Christian woman should not think of a man as an accessory for creating feelings of happiness in her. We’re beyond that now. There’s a war on, and every man who takes his faith seriously is busy trying to serve the Lord effectively. For myself, I am focused on charity, writing and doing apologetics with non-Christians. Things like these should be  more interesting than fun for a Christian woman – in fact they should be the ONLY things on her list of criteria of what makes a good match. She should put her desire for happiness behind her and love a good man self-sacrificially as a way of serving God by making her chosen man more effective at serving God. And that is why it is so important to screen a man about his faith, and especially about how that faith works out practically, before marrying him. A Christian woman loves a man before the face of God – she is trying to honor Christ in the way she chooses a man, and in the way she loves him. Her satisfaction about his appearance and his conformity to a secular alpha-male ideal should be the LEAST of her concerns. (In any case, many of those trivial things are easy to change)

Good movies

Oh, and if you’re looking for movies where you can learn something about what really happens to selfish women, watch “Madame Bovary” (1949) and “Anna Karenina” (1948). If you want something newer, I like “Kramer vs. Kramer” and “Ordinary People”. I also heard good things about “Mommie Dearest”, but have not seen it.

By the way, if you want to go see a movie that’s out now, go see “The Expendables” instead. (Here’s a good review) I also thought that the new Rambo was good.

Here’s my full list of good movies.

  • Rules of Engagement (Samuel L. Jackson)
  • Bella
  • Henry V (Kenneth Brannagh)
  • The Lives of Others
  • United 93
  • Taken (Liam Neeson)
  • Cinderella Man
  • The Blind Side
  • Cyrano de Bergerac (Gerard Depardieu)
  • Amazing Grace (Ioan Gruffudd)
  • Gettysburg
  • We Were Soldiers
  • Stand and Deliver
  • Blackhawk Down
  • The Pursuit of Happyness
  • High Noon

These are good movies for courting – to teach women what men are like, and how they ought to treat men.

Related posts

110 thoughts on “Why do women flock to movies like Switch and Eat, Pray, Love?”

  1. My wife digs kung-fu flicks, watches The Ultimate Fighter with me, and hates chick flicks.

    There’s hope yet, WK…

    Like

      1. She wasn’t married when we met, and even liked Kung Fu movies then… :)

        Of course there’s compromise… Our first date was to go out dancing…

        Like

  2. I would add Rocky to your list. Rocky is utterly devoted to Adrian as well as being the Italian Stallion! He ain’t too bright, but he has a heart of gold and he openly prays before his fights. Rocky goes the distance, fights the good fight and inspires us all to work hard.

    Also, I am a big fan of the 1970s British series All Creatures Great and Small series. Gentle, G-rated stories about the life and love of a country vet in England. Each episode contains a moral lesson that is skillfully woven into the narrative and does not appear preachy. Involves courtship, hardwork, sacrifice, love of duty and love of family and friends. No explicit talk of Christianity, but Christian weddings etc. occur and there is no criticism of the Christian worldview that I can recall.

    Like

    1. Stephen, I am REALLY SORRY for writing this terrible thing. Sometimes I get angry and just want to give young unmarried women some advice on how they look to me. I have Christian friends in India and South Africa and they are WONDERFUL! Nothing like these spoiled American gals.

      Naturally, I could write a terrible post about men, but I’m too tired. But I could!

      I saw the new Rocky but I liked the older Rocky movies better. I haven’t seen the All Creatures Great and Small series, but I’ll get right on that and report back to you! I’m playing Dragon Quest IX right now and I’m an angel running around helping everyone. I love this game! ECM recommended it to me. I helped an old lady and an old man already. I’m getting ideas for real life. Some people believe in me and some people don’t, but I have to help everybody.

      UPDATE: I just cleaned out someone’s barn because the guy was working so hard he fell asleep, so I just cleaned it without disturbing him. Is this what angels do? It’s pretty easy so far – no fighting devils, etc. I think I’ll go rescue the mayor’s son next.

      Like

    2. I love the early Rocky movies! Me and one of my girl friends love discussing them. Rocky for president! [starts singing Eye of the Tiger] :D

      Like

  3. I haven’t seen all the movies on your list.
    But the ones I have, I love.
    Stand and Deliver (Used to own it, VHS.)
    Taken, Cinderella Man, Blind Side, the Pursuit of Happyness.

    Like

    1. But but! Aren’t you mad at me? I know you’re married so I don’t think YOU’RE bad. (I know about you, so I know you’re actually good) Well, sorry for sounding so horrible, but these very wilful women make me unhappy. I’m hard on young unmarried Western women who divorce and have children without fathers because I know lots of kids who grew up with me with those problems, and the kids were devastated. I just don’t like it – kids are really vulnerable to bad parenting!

      Like

      1. Wintery.
        I want women to be empowered.
        Not selfish.
        Willful is fine as long as it’s used for the good of others and not to selfish ends.

        I want women to see the Deborahs, Huldahs, Pricillas, Elizabeth’s (as in the first queen of england, not the present one), Golda Miers, and Margaret Thatchers as their role models.

        Not Jennifer Aniston or Julia Roberts. Speaking of Aniston, talk about a woman left out to dry by a man who pledged undying devotion. (Way to go Brad Pitt. Have fun with your floosie.) Why do you think women, like Aniston, do these movies? Because they learned that the faithfulness of men cannot be counted on. They need to put their hope in God not men, and not themselves and ‘finding themselves’.

        A woman leaving a husband on a quest to find herself is just as distastful as a man leaving his wife for the same reason.

        If I’m mad at you for any reason, it’s that you buy into the idea that it’s the ‘evil woman’ that is destroying our culture and sometimes you appear to give men a pass.

        Evil is equal opportunity and focusing only on what women are doing wrong is really one sided and unfair. Especially when equal numbers of men are working to destroy it as well by pursuing their own selfish ends.

        I’m coming closer to the middle with this and seeing how both men and women fall prey to looking at the opposite sex as the cause of all of societies ills. And I’m seeing that taking this view, by either side, does not help.

        Had a neat experience on another blog owned by a woman more gracious than I. And I learned from her, am still learning as I read it.

        She’s not feminist, nor comp, as far as I can see. She thinks the ‘battle of the sexes’ has no place in the body of Christ and knows what a ‘feminist’ as you describe it, can do to a man, because she watched her brother go through it.

        Go there if you like.
        You don’t have to, of course.
        But if you do, you’ll see another step in the softening of my anger toward some men that I disagree with.

        (You’ll also see me lay into one foul-mouthed punk who disrespected the gracious lady who owned that blog. You know me. I’m not afraid to lock horns with anyone. But I have to admit, she handled him better than I did. As I said, I can learn.)

        http://denimjumpers2bluejeans.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/the-porn-factor-and-its-relation-to-the-treatment-of-women/

        [gosh darn it, Wintery. Why do I let you do this to me. All I wanted to do was agree with you on something tonight. Guess you know how to get me started. Getting me to shut up is another story though. Eh? ;) ]

        Like

        1. I’m reading it. It’s good when women have a son or a brother who goes through a divorce. The divorce is bad, but what she learns about the system is good for men. Although sometimes I worry that men will be TOO cautious and not love anyone at all.

          I think I would like it if filmakers made movies about Michele Bachmann, and then the younger women watched THAT. I’m a big fan of the movie Mrs. Miniver, for example. I’m sure that Mrs. Miniver would NEVER have chosen a dipstick like Brad Pitt and then expected him to stay married for life. That’s stupid and Mrs. Miniver is smart!

          UPDATE: Ok, I’m back. Mara, I just want to be clear that I only disagree with women who vote Democrat because I think their policies are bad for men and children. That’s all! I think of Republican women and married women as the salt of the Earth.

          Like

          1. I think Mara makes a good point that “evil is equal opportunity”. As I said to you in my feedback, it’s not like selfish, irresponsible behaviour is the sole domain of women. What about my female friend’s dad who decided he was meant to be a woman and now lives as one, depriving her of a father? Or what about another male friend of mine’s experience of a father who used to beat up his mother (until they finally divorced) and provided him with a horrible example so that he struggles with how to he can be unlike his father, by being loving and protective and gentle, and still be strong at the same time? The human race is broken as a whole, not just men or just women.

            I like the examples of strong women that Mara gives. Just a note on Elizabeth I. The poor woman had Henry the 8th (infamous for his philandering) for a father, which is enough to make anyone messed up. And then there would have been all sorts of opportunists seeking her hand in marriage for selfish reasons. As a result she had a very unhealthy view of marriage and a deep distrust of men.

            Mrs Miniver is an excellent movie! As a woman, I can recommend it too.

            I have some books to recommend as well.

            On the negative side: “The Awakening” by Kate Chopin. (It’s supposed to be sympathetic to the selfish female protagonist, but it just infuriated me.)
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Awakening_%28novel%29

            On the positive side: “Little Dorrit” by Charles Dickens (It’s long and complex, but wonderful. And it gives a lovely picture of feminine virtue and selfless love.)
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Dorrit
            There’s a brilliant 1988 film version starring Alec Guinness and Derek Jacobi.

            Like

  4. This is a great movie list – thanks for posting these! I think a good example of a Christian wife is the Proverbs 31 woman. We’ll never be that perfect Christian wife, but we can make the right choices every day, which is outlined very well in the book, “Principle Centered Living,” by Rev. Dr. Sheldon E. Williams. What I liked about this book is that the author demonstrates how doing the right thing is the best way to live and fosters a winning situation for all. You should check it out!

    Like

  5. Okay! Was I lame to have done a little victory jig when The Expendables totally beat Eat, Pray, Love in the box office. (So I am a huge Sly fan, so sue me!) I don’t care if it’s a ‘all brawn, no brain’ movie, am sure it will be much better than the narcissistic movie that Eat, Pray, Love is! I am so going to watch The Expendables. :D

    I agree with Stephen about the Rocky movies. I love the first 2 and final installation, the best. Rocky is such a character driven movie, and boy what a character that guy is. I love how he fell in love with a woman who wasn’t exactly a beauty, who had no self-confidence and brought out the best in her. I loved that he visited her grave everyday, long after she was gone. I loved that he was forgiving. (His b-i-l, coach, and son). I loved how, despite losing all his wealth to a cheat, he never lost his dignity. I love how he was the father figure to fatherless boy in the final episode. The guy rocks!! Truth to be told, I was more of a Rocky fan than a Sly fan but Sly claims that he has returned to his faith now. He says he was arrogant and thought he didn’t need God when fame came but God has humbled him now. I don’t mind believing him. Because it’s after this transformation that he made Rocky Balboa and John Rambo (I love how the atheist Rambo became John Rambo) and he insists that he intended the movies to have Christian messages. Besides he’s Republican! (I know he’s a 2 time divorcee but I don’t mind giving the guy a chance when he says he has changed now.) Since Mary has already started singing ‘Eye of the tiger’, I’ll take ‘Gonna fly now’. :D

    As for the rest, I love ‘Taken’ and ‘The Pursuit of Happyness’. In fact, I made my dad sit with me when I was watching ‘The Pursuit of happyness’, ’cause he hasn’t watched a movie in a long time. He was touched. Then we sat did some research on Chris Gardner. :)

    Agree with Mara and Mary on LOTR. The movies did justice to the book.

    As for chick flicks, I do watch some merely for entertainment. I don’t expect to learn any life lessons from them. But I would never watch a Julia Roberts movie or a Jen Aniston movie. Can’t stand them. I would have said ‘Bridget Jones Diary’ isn’t all that bad ’cause of Mark Darcy (who is the modern day Mr. Darcy) but then he says he likes her ‘just as she is’, which isn’t really a good thing, so even that’s bad.

    Hey, I like ‘The Sound of Music’ but then I have a thing for musicals. But ‘The Sound of Music’ IS really a good movie. I have a thing for war movies as well.

    As for the rest of the post, no comments. What? You are talking about western woman, right? ;) But I do have to admit, it’s not just western women who like amusing, entertaining men. That goes for women in my part of the world too.

    Like

    1. “Rocky is such a character driven movie, and boy what a character that guy is. I love how he fell in love with a woman who wasn’t exactly a beauty, who had no self-confidence and brought out the best in her. I loved that he visited her grave everyday, long after she was gone. I loved that he was forgiving. (His b-i-l, coach, and son). I loved how, despite losing all his wealth to a cheat, he never lost his dignity. I love how he was the father figure to fatherless boy in the final installation.”

      I like that you like all of this!

      “I would have said ‘Bridget Jones Diary’ isn’t all that bad ’cause of Mark Darcy (who is the modern day Mr. Darcy) but then he says he likes her ‘just as she is’, which isn’t really a good thing, so even that’s bad.”

      Oh, it’s good that you said this, too!

      Like

    2. Shalini, it’s soooooo cool to find someone who thinks (mostly) like me. :D

      Sound of Music is one of my favourites! When I was a little girl I announced to my mom that I was going to become a nun – because I thought they sang and danced and loved God and married the really nice guy. :D My mom smiled and said “yes dear” with a twinkle in her eye. ;-) And I love musicals too. :) Anything with Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly especially, cos more than the wonderful singing and dancing, they’re gentlemen… *sigh*

      And I think old war movies are really cool too.

      The only thing I might disagree with you on is Bridget Jones’ Diary. The Bridget Jones character isn’t a patch on Elizabeth Bennett. The BBC version of P&P with Colin Firth and Jennifer Ehle is the best thing since sliced bread. :)

      And while we’re on a Jane Austen trend, Emma is lovely too. Mr Knightley is my ideal man.

      Like

        1. Oh but it makes so much sense. He’s good and kind and intelligent. And he challenges Emma when she behaves thoughtlessly and builds her up into a better person. And he notices when she changes as a result of his advice.

          Like

      1. Oh Mary! But we do agree about BJD. I only said it wasn’t all that bad! :D And I love 1995 BBC adaptation of P&P. It was awesome. I agree with you that Knightley is an awesome man but I love Darcy too. Darcy is 10 yrs younger than Knightley, so I am assuming he’ll grow to be a better man than he already is, thanks to Elizabeth. To be honest I like Frederick Wentworth and Henry Tilney too, but Knightley and Darcy are most favourite Jane Austen men.

        But my ideal man is not someone Wintery likes that much. It’s Atticus Finch. Well, not really my ideal man but he’s my most favourite novel hero. My 2nd fav is Poirot. :)

        Like

        1. I also love P&P, Emma, and Sense and Sensibility.

          I’m in a funny position.

          I have sons and daughters.
          I watch Jane Austen and Disney with my girls, and guy movies with my son.

          My son is so funny, he doesn’t like it that I watch girly movies and teases me that I don’t really like them. I really like the guy movies I watch with him.
          He took me out to see the newest Star Trek two Mother’s Days ago and he’s talking about going through the Star Wars saga again.

          But we all watched Blind Side together the other night. And we all loved it.
          We can find common ground

          Like

          1. Oh, Mara! You are such a good mother. I wish my mother had been more like you. She never took me anywhere to do anything – she was always working or watching TV.

            Like

          2. Aw shucks, Wintery.
            I don’t know how good I am. But I do believe in being involved.

            I watch movies with my kids the way my parents watched them with me.
            If somebody does something stupid or unethical, Mom made a point to let me know about it.

            I remember that growing up. That, and any time there was a snake scene, Mom would take off her glasses and cover her eyes until it was over.

            Case in point.
            In the movie “Taken” when the girl’s friend told that guy they were at the apartment alone, I blew a gasket.
            Good news, though. I had trained my daughter well. She said, “I know Mom, you already taught me that”.

            Like

          3. I like guys movies more than girl movies because I mostly watch movies with my brother. But then he humours me and watches girly movies with me too. I miss the days we used to watch movies as a family. My parents don’t have interest in the current crop of movies but we make them watch movies which we think they would really like. I think watching movies with my parents really shaped our interests in movies.

            Like

        2. Oh I wouldn’t mind a Darcy either. ;-)

          Atticus Finch is good in that he’s principled and kind. I’m not so keen on the thing about not being overt about one’s faith though. I think one SHOULD be overt about one’s Christianity. It’s a good book, but there’s quite a bit of very subtle liberal sentiment in it, which irritates me a bit.

          Poirot I also like for his intelligence, but the focus there is very different.

          Like

          1. I’m staying quiet, but listening to you two go back and forth on this topic is really filling me with joy and admiration. But don’t let me stop you by complimenting, just keep going! I love it!

            Like

          2. Agree with the ‘not-being-overtly-Christian’ part and the liberal undertones. Irked me a bit too. But I love that he was a good father. As for Poirot, don’t mind me. I think he’s cute and super intelligent. But I am not thinking about marrying either of them. Thinking about marrying Poirot would be way too creepy!!

            If it’s marriage we are thinking about, then Darcy or Knightley it is! :D

            Like

  6. Hey so was thinking about chick flicks and I remembered ‘The Notebook’. It’s not exactly a chick flick in a strict sense but a romantic film. I was thinking how much I hated the fact the leading lady Allie chose Noah over Lon. Of the 2, Lon was definitely the better guy. In fact, he was the only good one if you ask. I hated the message the movie gave to young girls, really.

    And then since Lon was played by James Marsden, I remembered Enchanted. I loved the doofus Prince Edward. He was so adorable. And that lead me to think about men dressed in antediluvian costume running around New York, i.e. Leopold. Kate and Leopold is not a great movie, but Leopold was a good guy. Liked him a lot. He was played Hugh Jackman.

    Now Marsden and Jackman acted together in the Xmen. Don’t care much for the movies, but the movies got me interested in Nightcrawler because… Yeah, ’cause he was a devout Catholic. So I was digging for Nightcrawler videos in Youtube and look what I found!! Am sure left would never allow a thing like this in children’s cartoon but it’s still awesome this was in a famous cartoon in the 90’s.

    Christian X-Men 1
    Christian X-Men 2

    Like

    1. I’ve heard about The Notebook. Yeah, Nicholas Sparks’ stuff… Haven’t seen that one, but saw Message in a Bottle – which got on my nerves. But I know a lot of people love the stuff. People keep telling me to watch The Notebook.

      Those movies you posted sound cool. :)

      When it comes to the superheroes, I like Superman (although he disappointed me in the later movies). Batman is my favourite superhero – probably because he’s more human and complex. And I dig the Batmobile. ;-) I prefer the comics over the live movies and don’t want to see the superviolent latest stuff.

      Why do they always mess up a good series as time goes by? I used to watch something called “Due South” and the Mountie in that was very, very cool. And then they made him morally ambiguous in the last runs. Such a let-down.

      Like

      1. Ah I like Superman ’cause he’s such a boyscout!! :) Batman, well. Yeah, I agree he’s more human and complex, but I think he’s more like a Byronic hero. I am not very fond of that type. So it’s Superman for me but Superman Returns was such a disappointment. Strangely, I liked Richard White more than Superman in a Superman movie!! :-|

        Like

        1. Yeah, I know Batman is moody and brooding and all that. But it’s because his parents were murdered when he was a child. (Gosh, now I’m talking about him as if he’s real. :-P) I also like the style of artwork for Batman.

          Like

      1. Well I am not sure. Can you change it to ‘Christian X-men’? That’s the video title anyway. This has Nightcrawler who’s a priest talking about God and how He never abandons us. And he convinces the most popular X-men, Wolverine, to read the Bible. I think it’s great that they made a very popular comic superhero read a verse from the Bible.

        Like

  7. Perhaps you should do a post on why women so often appear as doorprizes and temptresses, strippers or assassins in most movies in which men are the central characters. Then you’d understand why women in general flock to chick flicks. They want to see strong women, women who call the shots. Nothing hard to understand about that one.

    Like

    1. MCS, I know what a good woman can do for a husband and for children. It’s nowhere to be found in movies today. Horrible. Instead you get stuff like Stepford Wives that make fun of women who are devoted to their husbands. That’s why I liked “High Noon”, “Rocky”, “Mrs. Miniver”, “Cinderella Man”, etc. I like movies where a woman helps a man to achieve his plan.

      Like

      1. You know, McS brings up and excellent point, one that I point out to my daughters all the time. (most)Movies are made for men, young or old. You can tell by who they cast and what they look like. Old men get to kick @@@ just like the young ones. Old women don’t. They are weak and usually the hero’s grandma or mother, if older women even appear at all.

        As I’m writing, I’m thinking of one exception. Sure Mad Max’s grandma was old and walked with the help of leg braces, but she carried a shot gun and knew how to use it against the bad guys.

        Be she is very much the exception to the rules.

        You know. I think what I have a problem with, sometimes, is that is seems you are all about the man being all that he can be and the woman helping him.
        Jesus gave us all talents. Anyone who burys them, including women who bury their talents in order to promote their husbands, they aren’t pleasing God.
        There’s got to be a way that husbands and wives can encourage and promote each other’s gifts and talents and it not being all about just one of them.
        Because scripture doesn’t teach that it’s okay for women to bury their talents, even if it is top promote their husband.

        Like

        1. I think that women’s talents are more like passing legislation, and reasoning with children about God, and engineering activities for children that form their worldview – like starting their own businesses or making things for other people.

          Why do you think that mere differences have to be squashed down? Why can’t a man shoot terrorists on the battlefield at the same time as a woman is at home reasoning with children about the problem of evil? Both are important – why do you think that women have to do the same things as men in order to have value?

          Like

          1. I don’t think women have to do the same things as men. I think women should have the same freedoms as men to pursue their gifts and talents. The scripture talking about talent is not pink and blue. It applies to men and women equally. Equally, they should be encouraged to pursue them, not pressed into preformed molds.

            I am against rigid gender roles because they are man-made (culturally influenced) boxes that restrict. Structure it good. Differences are good. Male and female expressions in doing similar things are good. Motherhood and fatherhood are essential. Moms staying home with their children, especially when they are young, is an excellent thing to encourage among young couples. I did it with mine and my children benefited from it.

            But women are more than just moms just as much as men are more than just fathers. And mothering, though very intense when the babies are first born, is a series of teaching the children how to rely on the mom less and less and less as they get older. And then the kids leave the nest. But they have been working on leaving the nest from the beginning.

            Turning women into men’s little helpers is not biblical. It’s cultural.
            Proverbs 31 woman absolutely does not represent CBMW’s ideal woman. But the Proverbs 31 woman represents God’s ideal woman.
            She was a business woman, a philanthropist, a teacher, did husbandry (relax, it means farming) and was a leader.
            She fully pursued her gifts and talents all the while not neglecting the management of her home.

            Your short list of what women can do is just that. Too short a list. It is influenced far more by cultural preference than what the Bible says women can do.

            I will concede that most women do not have the giftings or talents required to go kill terrorists. I sure as heck don’t. But a few do. Judges 4:17-22. Must you really press them all down into a one-size-fits-all mold based on culture rather than the Bible?

            Like

          2. The view that rejects sex roles is now the dominant view shared by the legislatures, the courts, the entertainment industry and the news media. I disagree with that view, and think that it is unBiblical. And my thesis is that the repudiation of defined blue/pink sex roles means the end of marriage.

            Having said that, my position is this: “I think women should have the same freedoms as men to pursue their gifts and talents.” And my ideal is the Proverbs 31 women, or, in her modern day incarnation, Michele Bachmann and Jennifer Roback Morse. Notice how both of those are serious about raising their own children and they understand that this entails changing the culture so that it is safe for their children – but it doesn’t mean that they marginalize fathers by replacing them with government social programs that incentivize fatherlessness. So I am for women having opportunities.

            But the goal of those who reject sex roles is a 50-50 distribution in every profession especially those normally viewed as being male only. And they do that through Title IX, affirmative action, co-ed public schools, and many other discriminatory anti-male laws, not to mention the courts. Insofar as these anti-male social engineers and social workers are now in control of society, I must opt out of marriage. Without sex roles, there is no such thing as marriage. It’s a fragile concept, and in my opinion, it’s deader than a doornail thanks to the rejection of sex roles in courting and marriage.

            I put every social problem that we see today down to the rejection of sex roles – out-of-wedlock birth rates, abortion, divorce, domestic violence. As soon as you tell women to have sex like a man, all bets are off on society. Either women control themselves and guard sex from men until they get marriage first, or society crumbles. And feminism made women abandon chastity. We’re dealing with the effects of women’s open-embrace of feminism and rejection of sex roles. And I already proved to you that the feminism you like so much is FOUNDED on the idea of women rejecting chastity and having sex like men do. It’s the feminists who rejected sex roles who brought in this idea that sex before marriage is a great thing – their goal is the elimination of marriage – because marriage REQUIRES sex roles in order to work.

            If women treat sex like a recreational activity, then men respond to that and marriage is dead. Chrsitian men who start out chaste eventually realize that women don’t want men who believe in the sex roles specified in the Bible any more, and they change into men who don’t think that there is ANY way that men OUGHT TO BE. It’s the free availability of sex that your side started that makes men turn to hedonism instead of “loving their wives as Christ loved the church”. Your side started this when they told women to act like men. And by this they meant – act like non-Christian men who have sex before marriage, and ignore the needs of men and children as much as possible on your way to selfish self-actualization. It’s all your fault.

            For the record, I am a virgin and advocate that men remain chaste before marriage. My view is not agreed to by the majority of women today, who think that sex is for recreation. So I recommend that men like me who believe in courtly love, romance and chastity AVOID MARRIAGE. Until Christian women get off their duffs and go out there and repudiate feminism and reinstate sex roles, it really is a bad deal for men to marry. We don’t get anything out of it and the risk of being coerced by the feminist state that rejects male leadership in the home is too high. Not to mention the 40% tax rate that has to go to pay for social programs to deal with the fallout from feminism, (crime, etc.).

            Like

          3. No, Wintery.
            You never proved to me that the feminism that I like is founded on the idea of women rejecting chastity and having sex like men do.

            You obviously do not understand MY feminism at all.

            We actually have far more agreement than you realize.
            I think much of that is due to communication break down.
            And part of that is due to you not understanding what CBMW means when they talk about gender roles.
            You really are much closer to my beliefs than to the Danvers.

            I think that affirmative action and the programs similar to that for women should not exist.
            But I also feel the doors should be opened for women to pursue things like engineering. They are more open now, than when I was going through college. But it hasn’t been that way in the past.

            I think women having options, like going into the military or pursuing a career, can save them from a bad marriage because they don’t have to marry in order to survive. I know too many girls who married to escape a bad home situation (where the dad was present, sorry to burst your bubble) and it was out of the frying pan and into the fire.

            I’m VERY sorry about the sex-is-a-free-for-all-recreation mentality that has overtaken our nation.
            But I totally part ways with you in laying the blame at the feet of women, feminists in particular.
            This cancer has been going on for a long time, chipping away at our country’s high moral standards.
            And it started with the pornography industry that men either secertly or openly embracing, funneling large amounts of money into it so that places like the playboy mansion exist and men like hefner can be billionaires. Women did not fund these things. Men did.

            Yeah, I think women are stupid for jumping on the band wagon of their own demise.
            I feel I need to warn women about it whenever I can.
            But who started the freaking band wagon to begin with?

            It wasn’t the women. Men are just reaping what they sowed. Some like it that way. But the smarter ones, like you, see it for what it is. Rotteness and decay.

            Where we differ in that you hold women responsible for something that both men and women are guilty of now.

            And you don’t understand that my feminism has nothing to do with the sexual revolution. My feminism has everything to do with taking the Bible as a whole. CBMW and Danvers is about men with agendas picking out their favorite verses and piecing them together to support a pet doctrine.

            I understand that you disagree with me on this.
            I feel much better about our disagreements because I have a better understanding of your heart towards women.
            You are no misogynist.
            I believe you when you say you love women.
            You are, imo, just a bit misinformed on the big picture, how all the parts play together, and what the ultimate solution(s) would be.

            Really wish you’d actually look at the egal argument honestly. But I know you can’t until you are good and ready.

            Like

          4. I repeat from my earlier post.

            In the ’70s, [Germaine] Greer… declared a guerrilla war against dependency on men.

            Greer called for the revolutionary breakdown of sex roles. She encouraged women to be promiscuous and otherwise sexually adventurous. She claimed that women have no idea of how much men hate them. Greer recounted stories of gang rape and brutality, and seemed to consider such violence to be the norm between men and women. Her solution: women should refuse to marry. If they do marry, they should refuse be monogamous or to accept the ‘trappings’ of marriage such as the husband’s last name, a shared tax return, a wedding ring….

            […]The truly radical assault on the family began with Kate Millett’s book Sexual Politics (1970). Although Millett’s views were extreme, she presented them in a dispassionate and well researched manner that lent her credibility. In dealing with male/female relations (‘sexual politics’), Millett dwelt almost obsessively on pornography and sado-masochistic literature, rather than on love, motherhood or successful marriages. To her, pornography seemed to epitomize the male/female relationship. And in attacking sexual politics, Millett attacked the entire structure of power in society; that is, patriarchy. Marriage was the agency that maintained the traditional pattern of man’s power over woman.

            These are the architects of the feminist movement. If you want to be a feminist, then you are with them. Marriage doesn’t work if there are no sex roles. And I have to admit, you do sound simlilar to them – so why disown the means of abolishing sex roles (and consequently, marriage) that they chose? Namely – unilateral rejection of chastity by WOMEN themselves. This is the whole plan – were you not clued in on the details?

            Having said that, we aren’t REALLY far apart but we are far apart.

            Like

          5. Rejecting gender roles is not rejecting marriage. You cannot prove such a thing. Unless you actually mean sex roles, as in women not having sex like women, but rather having sex like men, or being the man in the act of sex.???

            And when, in all of history, have women ever been able to ‘unilaterally’ reject chastity without the consent of men? Unless you mean lesbianism, this is not only impossible, it doesn’t even make sense.

            Actaully Wintery, I could say many more things. But I see that this is going nowhere. And rather than push the issue I’m going to drop it.

            Not because you are right in your accusations of me and my versions of feminism. You are dead wrong. But rather because, at this point, there is nothing I can say to make you understand, or even want to understand where I’m really coming from.

            Like

          6. Maybe I am overreacting a little. But just a very little bit. Maybe we do agree more than we disagree. But we still disagree a lot!

            I think marriage is OK so long as you are marrying Michele Bachmann. But for everyone else – NO!

            Like

          7. I’m sorry that I’m being so mean to you. I’m in a terribly sad mood. Mary already knows why. If you can try to be nice to me for a little while, that would help.

            Like

          8. I’m not giving you the cold shoulder.
            I just know when I’ve had enough and need to back off.
            I’ve gone off on you before on your blog over the things we disagree about and that’s poor blog etiquette. I’ve pretty much sworn off ever doing that again.

            I so hope you get out of your funk soon. I don’t like it when you are sad. I like the old Wintery better.

            Like

          9. Sigh. I guess that marriage is fine, but only if it’s to someone who believes that God designed the sexes to have different capacities and different roles based on their sex, and that men are supposed to be leaders, and women should carefully and wisely choose the one man who they believe is adequate to lead them and to love them over a lifetime. That is to encourage them to be cautious, as opposed to the drunken hook-up method of mate selection.

            But where did the drunken hook-up method of courtship originate?

            I’ll quote Stuart Schneiderman’s comments on a piece by a prominent feminist in the New York Times to remind you what feminism’s rejection of sex roles means in practice:

            In Bauer’s words: “If there’s anything that feminism has bequeathed to young women of means, it’s that power is their birthright. Visit an American college campus on a Monday morning and you’ll find any number of amazingly ambitious and talented young women wielding their brain power, determined not to let anything– including a relationship with some needy, dependent man– get in their way. Come back on party night, and you’ll find many of these same girls… wielding their sexual power, dressed as provocatively as they dare, matching guys drink for drink– and then hook up for hook up.”

            Given the relatively lesser body mass of women compared with that of men, matching men drink for drink is a fool’s errand. Anyone who glorifies such behavior has completely lost touch with reality.

            And why should Bauer be in awe of the fact that these girls can match men, hook up for hook up? If these women are so desirous of becoming unique individual self-creations, why should they be trying to emulate male behavior?

            And let’s not overlook the piece of undisguised contempt for “some needy, dependent man” with whom these women might have relationships. The latest wave of feminism prefers hooking up to relationships.

            According to Bauer, the party ends with said liberated empowered inebriated woman down on her knees. As Bauer so nicely expresses it: “When they’re on their knees in front of a worked-up guy they just met at a party, they genuinely feel powerful– sadistic even.”

            The whole point of the drunken hook-up method of courting is for women to reject traditional courtship and marriage because of the sex roles inherent in those practices.

            And we saw before in the IAV survey that the drinking is done specifically so that the woman can blame the alcohol later, and not have to blame herself for her own choices. It makes no sense, but this habit of doing what you want and then blaming others rather than apologizing is something I encounter all the time.

            Like

        1. Well, MCS, you’re welcome to that. Not me, and not men like me.

          Secretly though, I wanted to put the last woman I liked through law school, so she would be able to protect the family more effectively, but publicly I have to disagree with you. In any case, that was a secondary thing – just so she would be able to raise the children better and advocate for things like school choice and defend us from the overreaching of the state. The main plan of course is for us to invite non-Christians into our homes for discussions and meals, to host traveling scholars and activists, to support Christian students, and to invite Christian scholars to lecture and debate in our area. So yes, she’s not entitled to her own plan, but my plan involves her doing amazing things, just like Michele Bachmann and Jennifer Roback Morse.

          Like

  8. Wintery, you have oversimplified this for the sake of having a clearly definable position. But your position is weakened by your insistence on generalization based on how things were when the movement got started 40 years ago.

    Feminism has evolved with the times and has many different forms, as Mara states. I’d suggest you’d do yourself a favor by trying to understand the dynamics involved from women’s point of view, but somehow I don’t think that’s in the cards. In any event, it resonates with women and men because the idea of equal rights is one we all agree on, even if we don’t like the outcome sometimes. I know you don’t like the outcome of women being able to do all the things that used to be men’s domain, but if you don’t like that, you should be attempting to get men to change.

    You know what you should do? Write an article for a men’s magazine about chastity and virginity. Now that would make an impact. But lecturing women? Honey, we do that well enough for ourselves, thank you.

    Like

  9. This was a pretty interesting conversation to read- these comments- more interesting than the actual post (sorry Wintery, no offense).

    Okay… I’ll give my opinion, although it was not asked for, because… he he he, I can. As for these movies, let’s get a few things straight- there are some chick flicks I like (“Mean Girls”, “Clueless”) while most I can’t even bother to watch (I’ve heard how I MUST watch “The Notebook”, but anything that I MUST do usually turns me off). As for “Eat, Pray, Love”, I might watch it, might not. Will definitely read the book. And here’s where you all must pay attention: the movie differs from the book a great deal. In the book, Liz gets dumped by her husband, then goes through heartbreak in the following relationship. Movie Liz comes off self-absorbed and spoiled. She could just take off for a year, while Book Liz is actually traveling for work. Why the film makers chose to make these major changes, I don’t know, but I’m surprised no one on this post has pointed that out.

    I understand what Mara is getting at here. The problem of society shouldn’t rest predominately at either sex’s feet. That’s dumb, I’m sorry. Mankind, male and female, we all fall short. Even if we could somehow do away with misogyny or ultra-lib feminists, rest assured Friends, we’d still be no good as a society… apart from God’s grace. What bothers me is that many of these posts (and comments) lack the sacrificial love of Christ in their tone. I know you’re a sweetheart, Wintery. And I believe most of the people who comment here are, too. But we all should be careful about what we write.

    Also, Wintery, I have a problem with your very hard set mold for males and females. In our marriage, my husband and I often do things which shatter such rigid view. He’s the cook. I do the dishes. We both work, and do the laundry together. I keep track of most of the finances, scheduling and paperwork. We both assemble things and clean the bathroom. And right now, he’s most exciting endeavor is building a website for me- since he believes in my writing so. I like apologetics- and usually get HIM to read literature on the subject. I want to go practice at a shooting range… he’s leary of the idea. He on the other hand, is working to get me to face my fear… and learn to swim.

    My point is, what you desire is awesome. And I can see how it correlates to Scripture. But I believe our marriage does, too. We encourage each other in our gifts from God. He’s the head of our marriage, but ultimately God is the head of our lives.

    I guess I see a bit more grace as far as this is concerned…

    Like

    1. Thanks Alisha.
      I’m really not the hard line feminist that I can appear to be at times.
      I would like to see more grace in this area too and only reply strongly when I feel people here fall into the “It’s all the evil woman’s fault” cliche.
      Our society’s issues are much more complicated than the cliche will allow for.

      Like

  10. Been thinking about this movie thing some more.

    I’ve mentioned that most movies are made by men for men and women in these movie often have little basis in fact. I like what McS says about how women are often portrayed as “doorprizes and temptresses, strippers or assassins”

    Guy movies that I like that are the exception that I don’t think have been mentioned yet are Gladiator and Braveheart.

    But I’d like to explore a couple girly movies that don’t neatly fall into the ‘chick flick’ catagory

    One is a, surprise surprise, Disney teeny-bopper movie that is refreshing in it’s exploration of different female approaches to life.
    It’s called “Ice Princess” and it’s about a high school girl with a high IQ studying physics and wanting to learn about it in the ice skating rink.
    The girl’s mother is an intellectual who, because of not being the beauty queen but the nerd, in high school, has a prejudice against the ice skating coach mom and daughter who are like the ‘cheer leader/beauty queens’ of the story.
    It comes to some nice conclusions.

    Another movie made by women for women that, I think, played on the Hallmark Channel is called, “Where the Heart Is.”
    This is a secular movie that contains some secular values that I don’t agree with.
    HOWEVER
    It comes to the same conclusions that Wintery is trying to promote to women here.
    It comes to the conclusion, and makes wonderful arguments for women to stop chasing after the hunky, bad boy and to start looking around at the good men, who will pledge their love and livelyhood to women who will appreciate and love them in return.
    The opening scenes involve the hunky, bad boy and his pregnant girlfriend driving cross country so he can make it big in Hollywood, or somewhere. He feels smothered by he impending fatherhood and abandons the heroine at a Wal-mart along the way.
    Note: there is Christian representation in this movie in two forms. There’s the evil “Westboro Baptist Church” representation. But it is countered by a very flawed, but very likable, honest, and generous, Christian lady who takes the abandoned heroine in.

    So, no, I absolutely am not interested in Switch or Eat, Pray, Love. But I am interested in how women deal with their world and what measures can be used to help them make wiser, healthier choices than what many of them are making now.
    And the guy movies just don’t explore these issues enough. They are all about the guy and they pigeon hole women far to heavily.

    Like

    1. “It comes to the conclusion, and makes wonderful arguments for women to stop chasing after the hunky, bad boy and to start looking around at the good men, who will pledge their love and livelyhood to women who will appreciate and love them in return.”

      You know who really stinks at judging people based on appearances? M-E-N. Men never think about what women actually have to do in the marriage or with the children, and they don’t connect their choice of women to serving God. Not all women will allow you to love them the same, and not all women care what the children believe. But let’s keep that a secret, since I’m trying to make women stop blaming men. Only *I* may blame men.

      Like

  11. Wintery, you crack me up.

    As for me, I didn’t like E, P, L because the protagonist was weepy and didn’t really seem to come to an understanding of it during the movie. But the real reason I went is because I adore Javier Bardem. It was all about the hunky, guy, I’m afraid. Although he had a soul, here. So you get beauty and brains in one nice Latin, uh, package. As to other movies, I loved The Young Victoria (Queen Victoria and Prince Albert find each other), Bright Star (about John Keats and his lady love) and the Hurt Locker (directed by a chick)! Other great war movies: the Messenger. Hated Sex in the City. Ugggh. But I did go see it, alas.

    Like

    1. Loved Bright Star. Just saw it recently and when the other gals were talking about Jane Austen, I couldn’t remember it’s name or I would have mentioned it.

      Another one I liked that is completely different but you reminded me when you mentioned Bright Star.

      Stardust is the classic story of a young man learning the difference between infatuation and real love.

      Like

  12. PS: as part of your successful strategy to get women to stop blaming men, perhaps you should try a bit of your own medicine.

    Stop blaming women. Now there’s a concept.

    Like

        1. I wish I did work for Fox News, because I’d be working where you are, and we could have lunch every day! Wouldn’t that be dreamy? And I’d insist on paying, holding the door, and walking on the outside of the sidewalk to protect you.

          Like

          1. No need to protect me. I’m nearly six feet tall–and I’m very good at disarming evil. But I appreciate the offer. Where would we dine? I’m having fun, just thinking about it. Outdoor picnic? Candlelight? Should I dress up?

            Like

          2. I love tall women. If I’m ever in New York we can go out to a nice restaurant. You would have to dress up because my standard uniform is white shirt and retro black tie.

            Like

    1. McS, Guess we need to start reporting only the facts, facts, facts that point out men’s contributions to the downfall of our society.
      If that’s the only criteria determining whether or not we can blame men for anything, then we have quite an arsenal at our disposal. And I’m not talking about third wave feminist’s versions of the facts.

      Like

      1. NOooooo! You can e-mail stories to me and then I can post them, that’s allowed.

        How about the 150 rapes in the Congo. That happened this week. Rape makes me want to throw up. And I mean real rape, not like telling someone not to run up the family credit card, which is also counted as rape in academia.

        Like

        1. I know this is totally off topic, but Wintery, that reference to the Congo is horrifying. Can you please link to that story? I’m so sick of only stories like Tiger Woods’ divorce being reported, and something this tragic is not mentioned.

          Thanks.

          Like

          1. Tell me not to vote Democrat? Didn’t I tell you I don’t pledge allegiance to EITHER party? I’m independent. Please don’t confuse my… sarcasm, artsiness and… well whatever vibe I give off as evidence of political association. I personally think I’m never liberal enough for the liberals or conservative enough for the conservatives. But ah well… I think I like being courted as a swing voter ;-)

            Like

          2. I vote conservative. Which ever party better best represents my conservative views is the party I vote for.
            So far, it hasn’t been the Democrats.

            Except we do have one local Democrat who is pro-life and pro-home school.
            So, yeah, locally, I do vote for him. But he’s a state representative and has little to do with Washington D.
            C.

            Like

          3. Here’s an article by NIcholas Kristof, a NYTimes reporter who’s written extensively about rape as a war strategy and also human trafficking.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/15/opinion/15kristof.html

            You may want to check out his recent book, Half the Sky, as well as http://www.halftheskymovement.org/
            dedicated to fighting poverty and extremism in the world by empowering women and girls, particularly in countries where they are the primary victims of three major abuses: sex trafficking and forced prostitution; gender-based violence including honor killings and mass rape; and maternal mortality.

            Like

          4. @Mary:
            Quote from your article:

            The Congolese government this year has demanded the withdrawal of the $1,35-billion-a-year UN mission, the largest peacekeeping force in the world with more than 20 000 soldiers, saying it has failed in its primary mandate to protect civilians.

            Like

  13. W,

    I lost an uncle in World War II. Shot down with a squadron of 16 men called the Reluctant Dragons, over Marcus Island, at the very end of the war, in the Pacific. This was my mom’s only brother. My grandparents never got over it.

    Before you go advocating peace through strength, I suggest you sign up yourself. How about it?

    Like

  14. Frankly, reading these arguments back and forth about men and women in your blog tires me out. When you people talk about leadership and submission, you are talking about Christian leadership and submission, right? If you are, then why all these disagreements?

    All this talk about wanting to be a leader, makes me wonder. Is that so easy and desirable a job? Like everything else for a Christian, Jesus is the ultimate example of a true leader. A leader is someone who is willing to serve and lay down his life guiding, loving and protecting his people. It’s not the kind of leader who bosses around people and make them do things according to his whims. That’s a leader in the eyes of the world. Being a Christian leader is a noble position but not really an enviable one. My dad is the leader of the family and he’s suffered so much humiliation in his life. In his businesses, he has been cheated by family and friends. But he always managed to shield his children from all that. I am not saying we didn’t know what he suffered, we just didn’t have to face it at all, ever.

    Sames applies to Christian submission. Jesus submitted Himself to the Father’s will, on His own free will. Free will is a beautiful gift from God. If God wouldn’t force us to do things which pleases Him, no man/woman should either. The reason God doesn’t is not because He can’t, but because He doesn’t want resigned submission. Resigned acceptance doesn’t entail happiness. It doesn’t involve trust. A relationship which lacks trust can’t last. That’s precisely why women should choose well. They should test men before choosing them. It’s easier to love, respect and trust a good man. It’s a easier to submit to him. This doesn’t exactly mean burying one’s talent. This simply means prioritizing.

    My own mom is an extremely talented woman. Besides being a financial virtuoso with excellent administrative skills, she has other beautiful talents like painting and singing. She’s also a culinary expert and an extraordinary interior decorator. Okay, you might think with all the adjectives I am using, I probably being biased and exaggerating. But no I am not. She’s all that and she could have made an excellent career for herself, but she chose to be there for her children. She has 5 children, and all of us are doing great. Not just financially but we are also deeply rooted in our Christian faith. My mom has no regrets about ‘wasting’ her talents. The only thing she cares for is that we stay devoted to God all our lives and do things that please Him. The success of her children is far more fulfilling to her than any success (Which am sure would have been huge) she would have had pursuing her talents. She’s an excellent wife as well. She’s the one who stood by my dad in difficult situations and has equal share in his success. She corrected him when she thought he was wrong and defended him when people turned against him. She might have done the role of a helper but she is a leader in her own right AND she made leaders out of her children. I am not saying people should do things the way my mom did, but I am just saying she’s well respected because of the choices she made of her own free will.

    As Jesus said, one who wants to be the leader should be willing to be the servant as well.

    Like

    1. Shalini,
      What I fight against is the growing trend that divides the body of Christ into leaders and followers down the gender lines.
      I’m fighting pigeon holing people and knowing people after the flesh rather than after the spirit.

      You are right. Christian leadership and servant leadership are really oxymorons that defy worldly understanding.
      But you are not seeing the wounded women leaving Christianity or at least backing way off to regroup after dealing with men’s understanding of servantleadership.
      They joke with each other openly and freely in large groups that servantleadership is really just code for the leader leading the servant. And women are always the servants. There’s a reason they are making these jokes. And it’s not because they are just rebellious women not worth our time. It’s because they have been chewed up and spit out by a doctrine gone awry.

      No, you are right. Men should not be striving to be leaders. Jesus spoke specifically against it. Even Paul, in lesser known portions of his epistles, warned against such things to the point of referring to it as rubbish/dung.

      The only reason I go after it is because of the damage I have seen and the fact that this trend is growing and consuming more of Christianity all the time.

      In truth, Jesus Christ is not about Complementarianism or Egalitarianism. These are secondary, or less, doctrines that have nothing to do with salvation or even national security for a Christian nation.

      Yet men teach it as though our lives depend on it. That society will fall apart if leaders don’t lead and followers don’t follow, all the while, defining leading and following by human constructs rather than by what you so well pointed out.
      Leadership in the Bible has been completely turned on its head and has nothing to do with what people think it does.

      And what Jesus actually said is, if you would be great in God’s kingdom, then learn to be servant of all. Whoever wants to be the greatest should work to be the least.
      i.e. whoever wants to be the leader will only accomplish it by being the servant according to God’s standard of measure.

      People tend to forget what Jesus said, not using it to measure what Paul said, but rather measure what Paul said by human standards of measure and have come up with some really hurtful doctrine. There are those on my outrageous list. And there are those who don’t make that list, yet still aren’t getting it right. They are off just enough to cause harm where there need not be any.

      Like

      1. Mara,

        I must admit I really haven’t seen women leaving Christianity because of hurtful doctrines you’ve mentioned. Not in my part of the world which is ironic ’cause I am an Indian. And it’s not just a case of not knowing, trust me. My sister was in an abusive marriage and the Church wasn’t the one which suggested to lose her dignity and self-esteem and submit to her husband’s unreasonable demands. (I say ‘was’ because the abuse has ended. They are leading a pretty normal life now, thanks to the Lord. And I also think it’s got a lot to do with my parents’ faith and parenting skills.)

        But you have to understand that leadership and submission isn’t really a bad thing in Christian context, as long as you do it right. I agree there is false doctrine going on which eventually does hurt the Church more than anything else, but in fighting against these false doctrines, we shouldn’t strive to dilute the role of a husband and wife in a Christian marriage, is all I am saying. You should know about this better than me, ’cause from your comments I do know you have crosses to bear in your marriage.

        My opinion is that, the stress should be more on the work that’s being done as leader than the title it self. And as I mentioned if the man is as self-sacrificial as the model prescribed by Christ, I wouldn’t have problems following his lead. It all boils down to trust, respect, love and the urge to serve the Lord.After all, isn’t that what Christian marriages are about? A man and a woman working as unit to do the will of God?

        “And what Jesus actually said is, if you would be great in God’s kingdom, then learn to be servant of all. Whoever wants to be the greatest should work to be the least.
        i.e. whoever wants to be the leader will only accomplish it by being the servant according to God’s standard of measure.”

        Yeah, you’ve worded it better. But see, Jesus didn’t say you can’t be the leader. He’s guiding us on how to be the leader. Don’t take the title, you do the job and it would be bestowed upon you.

        Like

    2. What exactly the man wants the woman to submit to, and how he approaches her, and how the woman helps, all has to come out during the courtship. There’s submitting to a plan to please God, and there’s submitting to arbitrary commands that serve no purpose. I can’t say more than that because I want women to take submission seriously and grill the man on what it means during courtship. It’s the woman’s responsibility to investigate exactly what she is getting into. But I’ll say this – for me it’s nothing like the barbaric stuff you’re imagining. I’m a persuasive lover. But I have to talk tough in public about it so women say “wow, I’d better validate his requirements during courting, because once I commit, I have to submit to this man”. Make him tell you his plan, and make him practice getting you to help. How does he get you to buy in during courting? Is it worth it? Test, test, test.

      Like

      1. “There’s submitting to a plan to please God, and there’s submitting to arbitrary commands that serve no purpose.”

        This is so TRUE! Ultimately, we must be seeking to please God as a unit!

        “Make him tell you his plan, and make him practice getting you to help. How does he get you to buy in during courting? Is it worth it? Test, test, test.”

        I wholeheartedly agree with this. I’m currently working on an article for my blog on a lovely Christian couple I know in my “Two Become One” series. Sadly, so many marriages are crumbling, so many people go into it with a half hearted “commitment”. They go in thinking, “But I can get out of this with a divorce.” Don’t get married then!

        But if you are serious about marriage, then heed Wintery’s advice to “Test, test, test”.

        Like

      2. W:

        You have asked many times what’s up with so many women initiating divorce. This may provide an answer: An article in US News and World Report entitled “Bad Marriages Harder on Women’s Health.” Haven’t read it, but it may explain a few things.

        http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/heart/articles/2009/03/05/bad-marriages-harder-on-womens-health.html

        The second thing I’ll say about what you propose is that it is wonderfully idealistic, but marriage isn’t about promises made before the marriage, but about changes unfolding during. I suspect that for everyone like Mara who struggles to maintain her family and also follow Christ that the person that her husband became once married was very different than the one who put a ring on her finger. Everyone is on best behavior prior to walking down the aisle (as least they should be). But people tend to marry young, when they’re unfinished. Very few know enough about themselves or the union they’re about to enter into to promise fairly or rightly. So while women and men should know who they are marrying, they can’t know who that person is in the process of becoming. That’s all.

        Like

        1. “…marriage isn’t about promises made before the marriage, but about changes unfolding during.” I’m going to have to disagree with the first part of your statement but agree with the last part. It’s about both. If promises made before marriage don’t matter, why an engagement? And what of the vows the couple takes during the wedding? I can’t see how a couple could even have a relationship, let alone a marriage without those words said to each other being and remaining valid.

          Now I’ll totally agree with you on that second part. People are organic. Our opinions can change along with habits and even beliefs. So if someone goes into a marriage believing their spouse will be exactly that forever is in for a big shock. To be honest, my husband will tell you I’m a whole lot better as a whole married then when we were dating and in the first of our marriage. I was more concerned with superficial things, like making sure my hair and nails were done, the apartment was spotless and things like that (it’s taking a lot for me to admit this). It actually bugged the mess out of him!

          “So while women and men should know who they are marrying, they can’t know who that person is in the process of becoming.” True. But here’s where our faith in God comes in. There may be times when a couple can’t stand each other. But when you feel you can’t love him or her, when you’re married to a fellow Believer, you can love the God in that person. You can humbly ask the Lord to guide you. And you pray the Holy Spirit gives you peace. You can go before the throne of grace and ask, “Father, help me to see him the way you do.” This is where the teaching of being equally yolked is so important. If you both are Christians, you know that vow isn’t just between you two, but made to God as well.

          I know got preachy. Apologies. I don’t tend to. I just wanted to respond to your comment. There’s so much about marriage I don’t know since I’m still pretty new at it. But I know I’ve grown more in the past two years as a person than in the previous ten because of our marriage.

          Like

    3. Thanks for this comment Shalini. I hope I am not coming across as bossy and a micro-manager. I think the actions of your Mom are ideal, because I won’t be able to micro-manage everything and I don’t KNOW everything there is to know, so I’m going to be relying on my wife to help me with her superior skills. I’m finding my life very stark and soldierly lately. I eat horribly, never have time for lifting weights, and I find myself so worried about Obama (poverty/totalitartianism) that I really need humor and a certain sense of whimsical pleasantness. In short, I think having a good wife would be excellent for me, but she would have to have all kinds of skills and capabilities like your mom does. Because life is complicated and dangerous, and I need someone with a lot of skills and virtues.

      Like

  15. Vows are important. Goes without saying. I was merely making a distinction between wedding day vows (that happen before the marriage) and what transpires in the lifetime of a marriage, with reference to high divorce rates. Wintery cautions women to “test, test, test” but that implies that the person who passes the tests will not change after the wedding. HIgh divorce rates among Christians and non Christians suggest this is the main ingredient in marriages breaking up. Failure to live up to the vows. Failure to keep the vows.

    Wintery advocates that women “test, test, test,” I think it’s possible that many couples do test each other, and are still disappointed after the tuxedos and wedding gown are put away. Of course, Wintery is advocating a perhaps more rigorous form of testing, but I see little evidence that men are up for this and women are tenacious enough to apply it. I’d like to be proven wrong here. I know plenty of women with very high standards and they are…alone.

    Perhaps there are many men in this category, too. I’d like to see a movie on that! Movies in which love isn’t wrapped up in some neat little ending where good guy (or the hero-guy) gets hot girl. Maybe a nice little flick in which the hot girl goes it alone or the good guy does or the people are ordinary. Not every happy ending involves the making of a new couple. That’s all I’m saying.

    Geez, that sounds rather bleak for a Saturday morning!

    Like

  16. PS: Alisha, I don’t mean that to sound confrontational. I suspect we are in agreement on many things. And I appreciate your experience in the subject. I am an observer, being single. I also agree with your comment on faith. I have known several couples with severe challenges to their marriages (two of them involving adultery). I would never stand for that. I’d be right out the door, but in both cases, the cheated on spouse (having gotten separated) spent time praying not only for the marriage and philandering partner, but in one case, the woman with whom her husband ran off. Both were reunited, neither of them quickly. I’m in awe of that. I know personally one of these couples and they are solid many years later.

    On the other hand, this is not the outcome for many couples that pray. I don’t know what makes one different from the other. Faith can make people very inflexible, that’s for sure.

    Like

  17. McS, You weren’t confrontational at all! I was hoping I didn’t come off that way. It’s hard to tell how people will take comments since they are simple little black words on a white screen and leave out all the gray of an actual conversation. I have read your comments for a while (ha ha, I sound like a creeper) and don’t think you are trolling for trouble. So I didn’t take it negatively.

    I’m married, but I wanted to point out that I’m new to this. I observed before I was married, and still do. I talk to people who have been married for 5, 10, 45 years. Life and marriage is a continual learning process.

    I think the two couples you know are amazing. That is a rarity, and even though I don’t know them, I am inspired. That’s Christ-like love in action.

    Faith shouldn’t make people rigid. Not true faith in God anyway. But love can turn people into gymnasts. ;-)

    Like

  18. Add Hell Boy (1 and 2) to the list of good relationship movies. Hell Boy and his girl have relatively deep characters with their own needs and, especially in 2 when the director had his cred and was able to make the story the way he truly wanted rather than the way the studio execs decided, work things out pretty well for an action/super hero/adventure flick.

    Like

  19. Honestly I love Eat Pray Love sorta movies..i think its fantastic because it is the raw truth things most of us dare not speak out or say or pretend we do not feel. I do not condone living with someone and then deciding suddenly then Im not having with him anymore. Then again i dun believe in divorce but do remember it is just a movie. We take what is inspirational, what helps us in the movie and learn from the characters in terms of here mistakes. Also I think its a big generalization to say American unmarried women are such, its a little unfair coz not 2 individuals are alike are they?
    The message I find attractive is not that she left her husband but that she had the courage to face her fears in the end, I understood and identified with some struggles (not all as I m not married), I identified the desire/the struggle within, the desperation.
    A lot of women say they can’t find that mr.right because they actually cant..is see nothing wrong with finding a man who is entertaining interesting or a man who makes me happy..what is wrong with that…it makes no sense….my dad fits all of this(his interesting ,entertaining and even a provider). So I really do not get you…

    Like

    1. I just ran across this post – WOW !!! Very very good( Thank you again for the incredible insight).

      Btw, I have to reply to Cherwith ( I wil be kind – promise).

      I have seen as well as experience selfishness / self centeredness in marriages and families and the result is devastating ( Children take the biggest hit). While I havent seen the movie, I am curious did it show the horrendous aftermath and damage caused to the man and children ? I would suspect not – it is tragic and heart breaking beyond words can describe.

      The man and woman took a vow before God and close friends and then she “breached” the contract. If it was the other way around and the man did it – he would be chastised as a absolute bastard. In business it is a breach of contract and breach carries consequences.

      By glorifying this abandonment and suggesting there are no consequences that befall people/children emotionally, mentally scarred is a “make believe” as Alice in Wonderland.

      With that being said – please dont get married and breed. Your cruelty will bring incredible harm to those who love you and end up destroying yourself by the causation / consequences of your actions.

      Thank you again WN for the movie suggestions and the fantastic post.

      Like

  20. Mike’s comment also brought this post to my attention.

    Interestingly, at the time “Eat, Pray, Love” came out I remember reading many angry, negative reviews from secular media sources. I believe there was one in Rolling Stone that was pretty down on her entitlement attitude. I personally was disgusted by the synopsis when I heard it, thinking “wait really? We’re gonna watch an hour an a half of a selfish woman do selfish things and then decide she’s okay with it?” Never mind that the book itself was written with an advance that she got from her publisher to go off and tour the world and write a book about it. Never mind if she actually had an epiphany or not, she had better come up with one to make back the advance they gave her. The whole thing made me rather furious. Apparently it did well at the box office, though. So, sigh.

    As for “The Switch,” I actually think the underlying message from that movie is that women still want the idea of marriage to the father of their children. The attraction of the movie is that even though she was all talk about how she was gonna “do it without a man”, the rom-com, happily-ever-after ending is that she and the father of her child get married. It’s actually rather a subversive message to its apparent “no man necessary” message.

    Like

    1. Francine,

      Could you please clarify for me ? I am uncertain of what you are saying and I am unclear about the circumstances surrounding the book / movie ( I rarely watch tv / movies).

      If I understand from what you are saying there was book written by a married female author with a family who took a advance from a publisher to have a “epiphany” or give the advance back ? Is that correct ?

      Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s