Tag Archives: Moral Argument

Upcoming debate on morality: Matt Flannagan vs. Ray Bradley

News of an upcoming debate featuring Matt Flannagan from MandM.

Details:

Raymond Bradley and Matthew Flannagan will debate the topic “Is God the Source of Morality? Is it rational to ground right and wrong in commands issued by God?”

The debate will be held at the University of Auckland on Monday 2 August from 7-9pm in “The Centennial” 260 – 098 OGGB (the bottom level of the Business School) on 12 Grafton Rd, Auckland City.

Bradley is an Emeritus Professor of Philosophy with areas of specialty in Philosophical Logic, Metaphysics, Logical Atomism; he has previously debated William Lane Craig, Edward Blaiklock and many other Christian scholars and describes himself as an older generation “new atheist”.

Matthew FlannaganFlannagan is an Auckland based Philosopher and Theologian with areas of specialty in Philosophy of Religion, Ethics and Theology; he has previously debated Bill Cooke, Zoe During and, of course, writes for this blog.

The format of the debate will be as follows:

  • Dr Bradley: Opening Comments [20 min]
  • Dr Flannagan: Opening Comments [20 min]
  • Dr Bradley: Reply to Dr Flannagan [10 min]
  • Dr Flannagan: Reply to Dr Bradley[10 min]
  • Dr Bradley: Closing Comments [7 min]
  • Dr Flannagan: Closing Comments [7 min]
  • Questions from the floor: [30 min]

And here is an article on the thought of the atheist Ray Bradley by Glenn Peoples. Glenn’s post is short and to the point – he excerpts the main argument from a post by Bradley against the moral argument and shows why it has no force.

And you can read more about William Lane Craig’s debate with Ray Bradley on Hell, too.

Brian Auten interviews philosopher Paul Copan

Brian Auten does it gain with an interview of one my favorite Christian scholars, Paul Copan.

The MP3 file is here.

Topics:

  • how Christians should deal with hard questions
  • finding balance in communication
  • using the moral argument in conversation
  • common errors when using the moral argument
  • the content of his upcoming book, Is God a Moral Monster?
  • advice for the apologist
  • and more!

Paul Copan is really a very hands-on, practical philosopher, solidly evangelical and fearless on defending the toughest Christian convictions.

Why is it rational to act in a self-sacrificial way on Christian theism?

I guess everybody who reads the blog is familiar with my view that self-sacrificial moral behavior is not rationally grounded on atheism. Well, I got a great (snarky) question from a commenter (Gregory Lewis) who wanted me to explain WHY self-sacrifical morality is rational if Christian theism is true. So I wrote the stuff below to try to answer it. I’m not completely happy with it, but I tried.

Note, this is not exactly theologically correct. I do understand that salvation is by grace, and that doing good deeds is part of sanctification, not justificiation. I.e. – the good deeds do not save you, but they do affect your relationship with God, and everyone else, in the after-life.

My response

The question to be answered is why should a person act in a self-sacrificial way when it does not give them pleasure and may even result in punishment. On atheism, self-sacrifice is irrational because morality is illusory, we have no free will, and life is temporary. Your life purpose on atheism is to be as happy as possible before you die, and there is no room for self-sacrificial love just to be good. So it is not rational to sacrifice yourself for the “moral law”. There is no moral law, on atheism. That’s what I mean when I say that morality is not rational on atheism. I mean self-sacrificial morality is not rational, and it seems to me that this morality is the only kind that counts.

But here’s what is true on Christian theism:

1) the moral law is real (objective) not subjective and not arbitrary
2) humans have free will – we are not biologically determined
3) there is a real Creator/Designer who says we ought to obey the moral law
4) there is a final judgment where our free choices to obey or not are measured
5) obedience to the moral law affects the quality (not duration) of that eternal life
6) the author of the moral law loves us self-sacrificially

And what does all of this mean, on Christian Theism:

There is an objective moral standard that specifies what we (morally) ought to do on Christian theism, like self-sacrificial love. Our capacity to make a choice to accomodate that moral obligation is real, because we have consciousness and free will on Christian theism. There is a real way we ought to be, and a real capacity to choose to be that way. But sometimes being good that way sets us back, personally. Is self-sacrificial love rational when it reduces our pleasure in this life? What happens when doing the right thing results in LESS happiness in this life and maybe even LESS time to live in this life? Is self-sacrifice rational on Christianity?

Well, there are two things better than a finite amount of happiness in this life and a finite duration of this life. And that’s an infinite amount of happiness and an infinite duration of life. If we could get that by taking a little short-term pain here and now, then it would make sense for us to suffer now and get something better later, if the world really were designed that way as a matter of fact. And that’s what Christian theists believe is the case.

So, on Christian theism, self-sacrificial love is rational because it is in our own best interest to do so AND because it’s what we were designed to do. It’s the way the world is that makes it rational, and that objective reality can be investigated and sustained in a debate using the standard arguments. Self-sacrifice is rational on Christian theism because there is a state of affairs that makes it rational.

But there is more to it than just self-interest. You have to remember that Jesus’ self-sacrificial death on our behalf is a kind of call to action as well. It may be that many or even most Christians never think about rational self-interest. They think of relationships. They look around at the world and they are willing to take on the obligations of the moral law in the context of having a relationship with God. They don’t think of obeying the moral law as a way to get eternal happiness and eternal life, but as the only possible rational response to another person who sacrifices themselves to love them. It’s not just that we want eternal life, or eternal happiness. We want a relationship with that person who loves us. We have a desire to be loved in a non-temporary way. We want to know that other person as he really is. I would not call that desire self-interest.

I’m thinking of what I feel like when I ask a woman to spend time talking to me over a meal that I will pay for, and she says yes. She probably isn’t thinking that she is doing this in order to be made 100% happy with no demands on her own behavior. There is something more going on there than self-interest – she wants to have a relationship, and she is willing to make adjustments to have that relationship. Most Christians aren’t thinking that they are going to get eternal life or eternal happiness. They want to know who this God person is and they are not concerned about the fact that this person wants them to act a certain way as part of that relationship. We want the relationship. It’s rational for us to act in a way that keeps the relationship going.

Normally, to get a relationship started, I give a woman a book to read or a DVD to watch. That’s not fun for her. But it is a gift. Either she is going to want to know this person who chose her or she isn’t. Maybe she thinks I will make her happy, but that’s not why she takes that first step to follow me. She wants the relationship.

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