Tag Archives: Divine Hiddenness

Polemics

Why doesn’t God gives us more evidence that he exists?

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Welcome, Please Convince Me listeners! This post was mentioned in Please Convince Me Podcast #190.

Have you ever heard someone say that if God existed, he would give us more evidence? This is called the “hiddenness of God” argument. It’s also known as the argument from “rational non-belief”.

Basically the argument is something like this:

  1. God is all powerful
  2. God is all loving
  3. God wants all people to know about him
  4. Some people don’t know about him
  5. Therefore, there is no God.

You may hear have heard this argument before, when talking to atheists, as in William Lane Craig’s debate with Theodore Drange, (audio, video).

Basically, the atheist is saying that he’s looked for God real hard and that if God were there, he should have found him by now. After all, God can do anything he wants that’s logically possible, and he wants us to know that he exists. To defeat the argument we need to find a possible explanation of why God would want to remain hidden when our eternal destination depends on our knowledge of his existence.

What reason could God have for remaining hidden?

Dr. Michael Murray, a brilliant professor of philosophy at Franklin & Marshall College, has found a reason for God to remain hidden.

His paper on divine hiddenness is here:
“Coercion and the Hiddenness of God“, American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol 30, 1993.

He argues that if God reveals himself too much to people, he takes away our freedom to make morally-significant decisions, including responding to his self-revelation to us. Murray argues that God stays somewhat hidden, so that he gives people space to either 1) respond to God, or 2) avoid God so we can keep our autonomy from him. God places a higher value on people having the free will to respond to him, and if he shows too much of himself he takes away their free choice to respond to him, because once he is too overt about his existence, people will just feel obligated to belief in him in order to avoid being punished.

But believing in God just to avoid punishment is NOT what God wants for us. If it is too obvious to us that God exists and that he really will judge us, then people will respond to him and behave morally out of self-preservation. But God wants us to respond to him out of interest in him, just like we might try to get to know someone we admire. God has to dial down the immediacy of the threat of judgment, and the probability that the threat is actual. That leaves it up to us to respond to God’s veiled revelation of himself to us, in nature and in Scripture.

(Note: I think that we don’t seek God on our own, and that he must take the initiative to reach out to us and draw us to him. But I do think that we are free to resist his revelation, at which point God stops himself short of coercing our will. We are therefore responsible for our own fate).

The atheist’s argument is a logical/deductive argument. It aims to show that there is a contradiction between God’s will for us and his hiding from us. In order to derive a contradiction, God MUST NOT have any possible reason to remain hidden. If he has a reason for remaining hidden that is consistent with his goodness, then the argument will not go through.

When Murray offers a possible reason for God to remain hidden in order to allow people to freely respond to him, then the argument is defeated. God wants people to respond to him freely so that there is a genuine love relationship – not coercion by overt threat of damnation. To rescue the argument, the atheist has to be able to prove that God could provide more evidence of his existence without interfering with the free choice of his creatures to reject him.

People choose to separate themselves from God for many reasons. Maybe they are professors in academia and didn’t want to be thought of as weird by their colleagues. Maybe they didn’t want to be burdened with traditional morality when tempted by some sin, especially sexual sin. Maybe their fundamentalist parents ordered them around too much without providing any reasons. Maybe the brittle fundamentalist beliefs of their childhood were exploded by evidence for micro-evolution or New Testament manuscript variants. Maybe they wanted something really bad, that God did not give them. How could a good God allow them to suffer like that?

The point is that there a lot of people who don’t want to know God, and God chooses not to violate their freedom by forcing himself on them. God wants a relationship – he wants you to respond to him. (See Matthew 7:7-8) For those people who don’t want to know him, he allows them to speculate about unobservable entities like the multiverse. He allows them to think that all religions are the same and that there is nothing special about Christianity. He allows them to believe that God has no plan for those who never hear about Jesus. He allows them to be so disappointed because of some instance of suffering that they reject him. God doesn’t force people to love him. If they don’t want to look into these things because they want to avoid having to care what he thinks, then he lets them think anything they want that “works for them”. What they think is false, but so long as they don’t investigate anything, then they can keep doing what they want and thinking it’s fine.

Michael Murray’s work

Murray has defended the argument in works published by prestigious academic presses such as Cambridge University Press, (ISBN: 0521006104, 2001) and Routledge (ISBN: 0415380383, 2007). The book chapter from the Cambridge book is here. The book chapter from the Routledge book is here.

Michael Murray’s papers are really fun to read, because he uses hilarious examples. (But I disagree with his view that God’s work of introducing biological information in living creatures has to be front-loaded).

Here’s more terrific stuff from Dr. Murray:

Mentoring

Christian theologian C. Michael Patton writes about his depression

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C. Michael Patton of Parchment & Pen is depressed.

First part is here. (The second part of his series is here)

Excerpt:

It is a very dark time in my life. I don’t know how else to describe it. About three or four weeks ago I changed.

[…]All I can say is that I have had some sort of mental breakdown. My strength is gone. Depression? Certainly. Anxiety? Definitely. Fighting with the Lord? Most assuredly. All I know is that I broke a few weeks ago and I don’t know how to fix myself. All of the advice that I have given to broken people over the years is now pointed back at me and I realize how empty it can be.

Why? I don’t know. I wish I did. I have spent the last few weeks obsessing with how to get “me” back. I have analyzed every possible turn. God seems to have gone AWOL and I can’t get in touch with him other than through the cold hard facts. Facts are facts. They are nice, but I am coming to realize how much I need his presence in other ways. He has not been seen in this neck of the woods in quit some time.

I am sometimes not in the best of spirits, but then I always fall back on my arguments and facts. I always thought that the facts would protect me, and they always have – from everything. Now I laugh at God when he lets bad things happen to me. I’m like “yeah, good one. You got me. So what do you want this time? More church? Or more prayer? More Bible reading? More donations?” I actually thank God for not trying to get my attention by going after my health or something more central to me. I am surprised that the facts failed Patton.

On the other hand, I understand why he feels depressed, because he and I have the same notion of what causes depression.

He says this:

My family was strong and they were all following you. Now everyone that I loved so dearly and saw you in is either dead, mentally incapacitated, doubting, or depressed. Some have three of the four. It is so dark at mom’s house. It used to be so wonderful. You were there. And my ministry: it was a joy I turned to so often and found you when you were gone in other places. For years you had surprise moves that energized my spirit with your presence. Now you have left the building here as well. I have come to the point where I am timid and insecure. The mandate that I had is gone.

I agree with this. It is extremely challenging to continue to do the right thing when God doesn’t seem to be supporting you. What is happening to him could happen to me, and I wish him a speedy recovery. But I do have some comments and I want to express them below, with humility.

My thoughts

My view of Christianity has always been consistent with being a secret agent. When things go wrong, your government abandons you and disowns you. My view of the Christian life has always been like that. Even the Father turned away from the Son when the Son was doing his duty on the Cross, atoning for the sins of the whole world. So a good Christian like Patton can do all the right things, but because people have free will, and natural evil happens, things may not work out – and that is OK. So, I have really low expectations.

For me, the Christian life is like the old spy series Mission Impossible.

Most episodes begin with the leader of the IMF getting orders from a hidden tape recorder and an envelope of photos and information which explains the mission. The tape always begins with “Good Morning Mr. Phelps/Briggs”, explains the situation, and ends with “Your mission, should you decide to accept it”, with a brief explanation of the goal of the mission, along with a reminder that “as always, should you or any of your IM force be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions.”

I don’t expect anything – I just do my job, and try to bleed as little as possible on God’s rug when my teeth get kicked in. I think that something idealistic died in me a long time ago when I first realized that doing the right thing gets you killed. It got Jesus killed. He was without sin, yet the Father would not save him from his duty to obey. So what’s the problem? This life doesn’t work. You can do the right thing, but there are no guarantees. We need to realize that the story of Jesus doesn’t turn happy until after he dies.

This intro to the movie Casino Royale makes my point in a cool way:

Or the Bible, if you prefer:

1 Corinthians 4:1-4:

1So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God.

2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful.

3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.

4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.

Daniel 3:13-18:

13 Furious with rage, Nebuchadnezzar summoned Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. So these men were brought before the king,

14 and Nebuchadnezzar said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the image of gold I have set up?

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?”

16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter.

17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king.

18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.”

Daniel 3:18 actually has an amazing story that goes with it, but one that would never ever be preached on in the feminized church.

I think that Patton shows us that even the best Christians have a breaking point. I’m probably not as strong as he is – and he certainly attempts more for the Lord than I do, but I try to avoid exposing myself to threats. It’s best not to be overconfident about your limitations. Instead, live in a way so that you can stand your ground when God withdraws his support.

So here’s my advice. Save your money, don’t spend it on fun stuff. Make financial investments. Don’t take risks unless it’s for the Kingdom. Be careful to avoid sin. Don’t attempt to do more than you can handle. Don’t make poor decisions and hope to be bailed out by God. Run your faith like a business – think everything through the best you can, objectively. Focus on truth when building your worldview – not feelings. Find out how everything in life works so you aren’t surprised. Don’t believe that you can sin and escape the damage – you can’t, even if God forgives you. Tell your friends the truth, and teach them apologetics so that they can stand with you. Keep in mind that Satan is real and would love to crush your plans, and you with them. Be careful. Be prepared.

We all need to encourage one another intentionally – as if our lives depended on it. There’s a war on, soldier. Look out for the man next to you, and train him to be able to look out for you.

My favorite lecture of all time

Now may be a good time to point you all to the lecture that changed my life: Dr. Walter Bradley’s “Giants in the Land”.

Dr. Walter L. Bradley

  • Ph.D. in Materials Science, University of Texas at Austin, 1968
  • B.S. in Engineering Science, University of Texas at Austin, 1965

My favorite lecture of all time:

That is what Christianity is about. It’s not about what you see in church on Sundays.

Related posts

Polemics

Why doesn’t God show us more evidence for his existence?

9 Comments

Have you ever heard someone say that if God existed, he would give us more evidence? This is called the “hiddenness of God” argument. It’s also known as the argument from “rational non-belief”.

Basically the argument is something like this:

  1. God is all powerful
  2. God is all loving
  3. God wants all people to know about him
  4. Some people don’t know about him
  5. Therefore, there is no God.

You may hear have heard this argument before, when talking to atheists, as in William Lane Craig’s debate with Theodore Drange, (audio, video).

Basically, the atheist is saying that he’s looked for God real hard and that if God were there, he should have found him by now. After all, God can do anything he wants that’s logically possible, and he wants us to know that he exists. To defeat the argument we need to find a possible explanation of why God would want to remain hidden when our eternal destination depends on our knowledge of his existence.

What reason could God have for remaining hidden?

Dr. Michael Murray, a brilliant professor of philosophy at Franklin & Marshall College, has found a reason for God to remain hidden.

His paper on divine hiddenness is here:
“Coercion and the Hiddenness of God“, American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol 30, 1993.

He argues that if God reveals himself too much to people, he takes away our freedom to make morally-significant decisions, including responding to his self-revelation to us. Murray argues that God stays somewhat hidden, so that he gives people space to either 1) respond to God, or 2) avoid God so we can keep our autonomy from him. God places a higher value on people having the free will to respond to him, and if he shows too much of himself he takes away their free choice to respond to him, because once he is too overt about his existence, people will just feel obligated to belief in him in order to avoid being punished.

But believing in God just to avoid punishment is NOT what God wants for us. If it is too obvious to us that God exists and that he really will judge us, then people will respond to him and behave morally out of self-preservation. But God wants us to respond to him out of interest in him, just like we might try to get to know someone we admire. God has to dial down the immediacy of the threat of judgment, and the probability that the threat is actual. That leaves it up to us to respond to God’s veiled revelation of himself to us, in nature and in Scripture.

(Note: I think that we don’t seek God on our own, and that he must take the initiative to reach out to us and draw us to him. But I do think that we are free to resist his revelation, at which point God stops himself short of coercing our will. We are therefore responsible for our own fate).

The atheist’s argument is a logical/deductive argument. It aims to show that there is a contradiction between God’s will for us and his hiding from us. In order to derive a contradiction, God MUST NOT have any possible reason to remain hidden. If he has a reason for remaining hidden that is consistent with his goodness, then the argument will not go through.

When Murray offers a possible reason for God to remain hidden in order to allow people to freely respond to him, then the argument is defeated. God wants people to respond to him freely so that there is a genuine love relationship – not coercion by overt threat of damnation. To rescue the argument, the atheist has to be able to prove that God could provide more evidence of his existence without interfering with the free choice of his creatures to reject him.

People choose to separate themselves from God for many reasons. Maybe they are professors in academia and didn’t want to be thought of as weird by their colleagues. Maybe they didn’t want to be burdened with traditional morality when tempted by some sin, especially sexual sin. Maybe their fundamentalist parents ordered them around too much without providing any reasons. Maybe the brittle fundamentalist beliefs of their childhood were exploded by evidence for micro-evolution or New Testament manuscript variants. Maybe they wanted something really bad, that God did not give them. How could a good God allow them to suffer like that?

The point is that there a lot of people who don’t want to know God, and God chooses not to violate their freedom by forcing himself on them. God wants a relationship – he wants you to respond to him. (See Matthew 7:7-8) For those people who don’t want to know him, he allows them to speculate about unobservable entities like the multiverse. He allows them to think that all religions are the same and that there is nothing special about Christianity. He allows them to believe that God has no plan for those who never hear about Jesus. He allows them to be so disappointed because of some instance of suffering that they reject him. God doesn’t force people to love him.

More of Michael Murray’s work

Murray has defended the argument in works published by prestigious academic presses such as Cambridge University Press, (ISBN: 0521006104, 2001) and Routledge (ISBN: 0415380383, 2007). The book chapter from the Cambridge book is here.  The book chapter from the Routledge book is here.

Michael Murray’s papers are really fun to read, because he uses hilarious examples. (But I disagree with his view that God’s work of introducing biological information in living creatures has to be front-loaded).

Here’s more terrific stuff from Dr. Murray:

Related posts