Is it the man’s responsibility to pursue the woman, or the other way around?

Telling a woman how to make wise decisions protects her
Telling a woman how to make wise decisions protects her

If you ask this question theoretically, most people will probably say that it’s the man’s responsibility, especially in the church. Is this because women don’t like the idea of having to plan out and achieve something? Maybe. But what is interesting is that the man-pursues view is very popular in the church, even though it’s not very common in the Bible. Dalrock posted something about this.

He writes:

One comment I see from fathers with surprising regularity is that their unmarried daughter is in a great position to find a husband because she’s not remotely interested in the kind of men who express interest in her.

I… think this is tied into the erroneous idea that the Bible teaches that men should pursue and women should judge the performance. But it isn’t the Bible that teaches this ethic, it is the religion of Courtly Love that teaches this. Think of the only two women to have books of the Bible named after them. Both Ruth and Esther pursued their eventual husbands. Ruth’s pursuit of Boaz resulted in her being the grandmother of King David, which meant that Christ would come from her line. Esther’s pursuit of Ahasuerus allowed her to save the Jews.

Cane Caldo was actually the first to write about this on his blog:

According to traditionalists (and others): Men are supposed to chase, and women are supposed to be caught. Or they might say: Men are to initiate, and women are to respond.

[…]If you fancy yourself a traditionalist… [s]earch your Bible for a story about a man who woos a woman directly.

So, just consider that for a minute. Ruth is probably the best example of a woman who just makes decisions to get on with life, and happens across a wealthy single man. Then she consults with Naomi and takes action to pursue that man. It works out for her. Where in the Bible does the man pursue the woman?

Derek Ramsey was able to come up with two examples, and he commented on Dalrock’s blog:

You can find examples of all cases in the Bible: fully arranged marriages (for Isaac), where the man pursued the woman (Jacob; Hosea), where the woman pursued the man (Ruth; Esther), and where both pursued each other or it wasn’t clearly stated one way or the other (Samson; Solomon). I would argue that pursuit (by either sex) is neither condemned nor encouraged. Each situation is different and there is no rule one way or the other.

I think that Derek wins the argument, here. But I still think that practically speaking, in such a time (of feminism) as this, it’s much much wiser for women to take action to “pursue” men she is interested in. That doesn’t mean asking men out, though.

thedeti explains in a comment:

A man setting his sights on one or two or three women and then pursuing them really hard trying to get on their radar isn’t the best way to find a woman who’s interested in him and who is the best match.

Instead, he should be his best version of himself, and then see which women are tossing subtle signs of interest at him. Which women just kind of show up where he is, which ones make a point to say hi to him, which ones reach out to him, which ones contact him, which ones strike up conversations with him. And then from THOSE women he should select a few he is interested in and then pursue them.

That certainly isn’t what most Christians are teaching their children. I certainly wasn’t taught this.

And a bit later, thedeti says:

In the current #MeToo climate, false rape allegations, and sexual harassment’s current definition as “any conduct or words uttered by any man anywhere that any woman within sight or earshot didn’t like”, this model can be downright dangerous for men.

A man can no longer just pick a few girls he’s interested in and pursue them. If he selects some girls who dont’ like him, he’s in for a world of hurt by trying to “perform” for them. If he selects one who kind of likes him, but he makes even one wrong move or says one remotely mildly offensive thing, he’s done. Not only will she know about it, all her friends will know too.

When a woman is very interested and shows it, she’ll be much more forgiving of his expected missteps. That gives him room to run, and gives a budding relationship the space it needs to germinate and grow.

Deti advises women to just show up in places where men they are interested in are, and not actively discourage them. Maybe ask him questions about what he is doing as a Christian, and ask for his advice about something he knows about, etc. And deti warns women to consider that in a culture where false accusations and frivolous no-fault divorces are everywhere, men with good educations, degrees and finances will be very careful about pursuing women.

My thoughts

I was speaking to someone who thinks that she wants to be pursued by a man. I suggested that she read the book of Ruth to counter her view. The first and most important piece of advice I gave her was to “cross the room” for any man she is interested in. Stand up, walk directly at him, and speak right in his face. Maintain eye contact and speak directly to him about things he is interested in. On another day, I told her that the most important thing you can ask a man about is his vision to serve God.

As women age and lose their beauty, the only thing that remains is the man’s passion – his plan – and the place of the woman within it. Men stay in love with women who have invested in the plan they made to serve God. Naturally, it’s POINTLESS to choose any man unless he has a plan to serve God effectively that he has demonstrated his willingness to sacrifice for. In my case, writing this blog is a sacrifice, and giving money to Christian apologists and pro-life debaters is a sacrifice. A woman should be skeptical about anything a man says – look at what he has already done for his vision, and whether he is actually practical and determined enough to achieve anything. That’s where you’ll find your place. And that’s what you need to investigate in a husband candidate. Standing back and remaining passive, waiting to be pursued, is just going to attract a lot of non-Christian men who are pursuing you for sex. If the man is pursuing you, and he hasn’t told you his vision (why he needs you as his wife anyway), then he wants sex.

The pursuit of women by non-Christian alpha male bad boys seems to be welcomed, surprisingly, by a lot of passive Christian women who kind of lie back and expect to just acquiesce to experiences that feel good. Women today don’t like to think about marriage in a structured way. And they especially don’t want to be asked by men about past decisions, demonstrated abilities, future wife responsibilities and obligations, etc. (How dare men evaluate them for a marriage plan!) They don’t want marriage, defined as self-sacrificial commitment. They want marriage as constant tingles, supplied by an alpha male bad boy who exists solely to generate feelings of happiness in them, and feelings of envy in their girlfriends. Think about marriage as a plan? That’s boring. Let’s get drunk and hook up with an alpha male bad boy, and see if he calls back after the abortion.

Alpha male bad boys feel good (for a while) and this is how women get trapped into relationships with men who have no reason to commit to them. A much better strategy is to stop being attracted to alpha male bad boys, and deliberately engage in conversations with marriage-ready men. As my friend Lindsay says, you need to learn to become attracted to men who have a vision that will survive the loss of your youth and beauty.

In my own case, I’ll be able to retire at 50 with a net worth well north of 7 figures. Because of this, it would be stupid for me to waste my time pursuing Christian women whose criteria for men has nothing to do with the marriage enterprise, and is INDISTINGUISHABLE from the criteria used by non-Christian women. The ONLY thing that would catch my eye at this point is a woman who is equal to me (chaste, no tattoos, STEM degree(s), debt-free, married parents, house or savings, into apologetics, conservative politics, and between the ages of 23-28). And that’s a minimum. And she can forget about being pursued by me. She’ll have to approach me, and question me about what my plan is, and where she would fit into it.

I’ve often been told by wise female Christian advisors that I need to do a better job of showing off my situation to women. But if I spent the money on sparkly things and fun, I wouldn’t be financially secure, would I? It’s up to women to stop being so shallow and emotional. They need to look beyond appearances and fun. They need to have a marriage focus, and they need to choose men, show up and start investigating and investing. I simply don’t have the time to flail around in a feminist culture where women, including Christian women, are woefully unqualified for the marriage enterprise. It’s not my job, after having made thousands of good decisions, to risk my fortune by pursuing women who have made thousands of bad decisions (promiscuity, debt, useless degrees, etc). The entitled attitudes of women today, including Christian women, is nothing short of astonishing to men like me who have spent a lifetime being careful about being chaste, sober, practical, frugal and effective.

Alistair Begg has a great sermon series on Ruth that emphasizes Ruth’s agency, and her willingness to make decisions that were practical without any sort of being led by feelings or being nudged by God. Christian women, if you want to get married, then get to work on finding a man and making it easy for him to choose you.

40 thoughts on “Is it the man’s responsibility to pursue the woman, or the other way around?”

  1. ‘It’s up to women to stop being so shallow and emotional. They need to look beyond appearances and fun. They need to have a marriage focus, and they need to choose men, show up and start investigating and investing.’

    Yes they need to cut out the 451 point bullet list which is basically about a guy’s height, money, hawtness, or sense of humor and dig into some spiritual insights or figure out how they can be part of his plan. Heck finding out if he has a vision or goal is a good start.

    Liked by 4 people

    1. Thing is… Women need male authority in their lives to give them that GUIDANCE to know they need to have a “proper plan” when considering a man as a potential husband candidate.

      This is mainly where a woman’s father, brothers, uncles, grandfathers, and other male family members and relatives come in to GUIDE HER in considering potential husband candidates.

      A woman “naturally” on her own just usually isn’t capable to make logical, rational decisions for IMPORTANT MATTERS based on REASON & FACT than feelings and emotions the female brain succumbs to.

      Wish it wasn’t the case but reality is what it is.

      I mean we know EVE was deceived by the Serpent and how that went down. Adam only “gave in” to eating the Forbidden Fruit because of his love/lust for Eve and so SINNED against God and bore the greater punishment for his SIN because ADAM was the LEADER and OVERSEER of his wife, Eve, and ADAM had the RESPONSIBILITY OF LEADERSHIP as the MAN towards the WOMAN.

      Thus women were not created to be the “leaders” and are really not to make most “important decisions” on their on without a MAN’S AUTHORITY given when there are men present in women’s lives and the women aren’t “left alone” where it’s just the woman or group of women around.

      Now when women are “on their own” and have no form of “male guidance and/or oversight” in their lives; yes they’ll have to make their own decisions completely on their own… And as history and current Western society shows us: many women don’t make the best decisions for themselves and others in the long-term unfortunately… :/

      ~ Bro. Jed

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  2. My wife turned to me and said “I’ll help you”. Those were her first words to me the moment we met.
    We didn’t even know each others names. She just saw me, turned to me and interrupted my conversation about my rent house needing work and blurted out “I’ll help you”.
    Still together and very happy 30 years later.

    Liked by 6 people

    1. The idea that a woman should get a man’s attention by offering to help him seems to be lost. Its not seen in many places. I was just looking at a photo of elaborate meal prep done by a lady I know who is a stay at home e wife and mom. Her husband definitely picked a good one.

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      1. My wife also a stay at home mom. She had dinner on the table every night, complete with cloth napkins in napkin rings.

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  3. To mention food I don’t know how young guys find a wife with young women that can’t cook.
    I couldn’t marry a woman that can’t cook. I enjoy a good meal and a wife that is happy to make me a meal so we don’t have to waste all our money in restaurants.
    Even non Christian guys I mention it to agree a good meal in the long run is more important to many husbands than sex.
    Practical things like this will matter in the long run but they are devalued in society

    Liked by 3 people

    1. In my case I often go through $16 a day at Chick-fil-A. So I’m burning through capital that could be put to better use. When I think of a woman helping, I think of that. It would be a dream come true to get help with my new house. I don’t know how to do a damn thing except mow the lawn, water the lawn, and laundry. The help that a woman could give is on my mind many times a day!

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  4. The problem is this is basically telling people, “have a long time preference, don’t have a short time preference!”

    This is the standard Conservative talking point and it just fails the history test. A large part of that in people is biological (genetic and epigenetic): IQ, neurotransmitters, and hormonal. They can’t choose to think things through because they can’t choose to be smarter then they are.

    The solution for all of history for this problem was Tradition. Short term people peer pressured into behaving as if they had long term preferences. People just carrying out the actions without fully agreeing or understanding with them and getting better results, just like children wanting ice cream but ending up healthier if they eat vegetables.

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    1. “The solution for all of history for this problem was Tradition.”

      This is a fantastic point.

      For most of history, opposition to divorce and keeping children with a mother and father were traditional. Even if two people were somewhat bad matches, they were coerced into finding a way to make it work. Non-widowed single-motherhood was shameful.

      Many single virgin men can’t find a spouse because there is no longer any tradition that might steer quality women in their direction. WK is trying to work around this by talking women into making good decisions. It’s worthwhile, but it’s an uphill battle.

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      1. True! much of this “any family is a real family” propaganda and hook up culture and radial feminism is making it harder for men to find virtuous wives who won’t leave him at the drop of a hat, or have saved themselves for him instead of sleeping with every guy she dated! Same for women wanting men to protect and provide for them, while most of the men now are feminized wimps having been raised by bitter single mothers! The glorification of single parenthood and divorce culture is breaking the traditional family up, and the kids pay the price when marriage is devalued and cheapened into dating 2.0!
        https://aladyofreason.wordpress.com/

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  5. So in the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s (basically capped by the 1997 Joshua Harris book, “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”), the late Elisabeth Elliot (“Passion and Purity” etc.) was idolized. According to Ms. Elliot, Christian women had no business even speculating if Christian men were interested, and worrying about marriage (let alone dating) or even being intentional about dating was equivalent to not trusting in God. Of course, if we applied the same thinking to looking for a job, it would be ridiculous. Sure, people can make an idolatry about marriage or spouse-seeking — but Ms. Elliott’s suggestions were pretty extreme. (Ms. Elliott also endorsed Joshua Harris’ book.) Many Christian women followed Ms. Elliott’s advice in being completely passive about dating matters.

    In 2000, things started changing. Joshua Harris got married! He advocated “courting,” being intentional with developing a relationship that might (likely) lead to marriage. In the same year, Jeremy Clark penned a semi-polemic, “I Gave Dating a Chance.”

    Furthermore, there was a proliferation of Christian Dating books which really vary in value and advice/wisdom. Sure, we’ll even name some names like “Boundaries in Dating” (Cloud and Townsend), “How to Get A Date Worth Keeping” (Henry Cloud), Neil Clark Warren’s many books (“Finding the Love of Your Life,” “Date or Soul Mate,” “Falling in Love For All the Right Reasons,” “How to Know if Someone Is Worth Pursuing in Two Dates Or Less” [which is the basis of eHarmony]), etc.

    [Interestingly, even Henry Cloud’s book does mention that if one isn’t meeting eligible Christians that one should change one’s traffic patterns. He puts the onus on the individual. From NCW’s books, he advocates critically examining shopping lists and intentionally prioritizing.]

    There were also cultural and technological shifts (outside the church, women were initiating more; increase in average first marriage age; the rise of singles’ ministries; dating websites; accusations from women about sexual harassment; etc. — not exhaustive here).

    In the early-to-mid-2000’s, I was on good terms with our singles’ ministry leaders and overheard some of the conversations highlighting some of the difficulties. Who should initiate? Women complained that the wrong kind of guys were asking them out, and the men they fancied wouldn’t respond or ask them out (often accusing them of being cowards). Men complained that some Christian women were ‘ice queens.’

    Modern Christian Dating is tough. I don’t miss it at all.

    We might step away from dating to back up a bit and start with the Bible.

    1. Singleness like marriage is a gift from God, as is meant for the betterment (the edification) of the church.

    Paul was absolutely correct that a married man (let alone a family man) is not able to serve directly in terms of ministry. It’s really challenging to do seminary (as well as serve in all the capacities that I’ve served in) as a married and now family man. It was definitely far easier to serve as a single. Or put differently, my current ministry as a family man is my family.

    2. Marriage does not guarantee happiness.

    My wife and I had a lot of conflict in our first year (and second year) of marriage.

    I’ve seen my share of bad marriages (and divorces, and been privy to details).

    I’ve seen plenty of godly couples suffer through miscarriage, cancer (including becoming barren due to cancer treatment), infertility, and tragedy.

    Marriage, like singleness, are ways that God sanctifies us. Marriage is like a crash course in addressing sinful/selfish habits as well as to increase our holiness.

    Ultimately, we do have to trust that God is good, and God has us where He wants us FOR NOW.

    3. Desiring to be married is not a sin, and is not “distrusting God.”
    In 1Corinthians 7, Paul uses the parallel between a) slaves who desire their freedom (1Cor. 7:21) and b) singles who desire to be married (7:25ff).

    It isn’t a sin for a single person to desire to be married, and moreover, we can (I argue: should) take steps including marriage preparation and seeking out good candidates.

    Honestly, it was a piece of cake to plan a wedding, post-wedding in-church meet and greet, and reception — because of my previous ministry leadership. It’s way easier to organize a reception and maintain a certain budget when I’ve already done this quite a number of times.

    4. If people want something that the Bible says is not sinful, then use wisdom to seek that out.
    A college education is not sinful. (Debt is unwise, meaning we should have a careful plan of how to deal with it. Time value of money, future/current value, blah blah blah.)

    The same is true of dating and marriage.

    Ruth is a great text (as is Abraham, Isaac, and the unnamed servant).

    In Ruth, we have a Moabitess (someone racially different than an Israelite, who had no business being married to an Israelite) and a widow — and then we have Boaz, who appears to be an older man. They ultimately seek each other out based on character. (Interracial marriage and crossing socioeconomic boundaries are two more cans of worms. Makes things pretty challenging.)

    Boaz makes every attempt to be honorable. Ruth actually proposes marriage to Boaz — twice: once verbally, once with her actions. Take that, Ms. Elliott!

    As I’ve mentioned before, my Christian aunt gave me a book by James Dobson on marriage and dating, long before I became a Christian. I remember his wisdom, in looking for a life partner, to look in three major areas:
    Morals
    Goals
    Values

    I don’t think we can assume any more that all Christian women are “good Christian women.” It is important for us good Christian men to discern on this matter.

    You mentioned Dr. Craig this week about his secret weapon: Jan. She shared his values, of how to best advance the Kingdom of God.

    I also met various female seminarians who had a different calling (or maybe “vision”) that I did — and you know what? That’s okay.

    Maybe a woman is called to be a missionary to a sub-Saharan country. Great for her! I’m not.

    Maybe a woman is called to be a mother of at least a half-dozen children. Great for her! Be fruitful and multiply.

    None of these things is inherently sinful, but each factor that a woman (or man) requires will reduce the number of eligible candidates.

    My post is getting long, so I’ll curtail it here. I might post on some other bits of advice for men and women in terms of Christian dating (on topics like discernment, impressions and image, “is it really a numbers game?” and so on).

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  6. ‘Men try to attract fun-focused women into marriage with fun, and then when those women see how marriage is work, they divorce.’

    That is a good point. If a woman has been living off thrills in her 20s…she’s already proven she couldn’t handle the hard work and sacrifice marriage requires. If on the other hand she has some skills and assets…she has something to show for her marital chances.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. where the man pursued the woman (Jacob; Hosea)

    Where does it show that either of these men pursued the woman?

    Hosea certainly didn’t pursue his adulteress wife, particularly in the sense implied in today’s lexicon. He married her because God told him to do so.

    As far as Jacob, while he desired Rachel he didn’t pursue her either. He approached her father and negotiated for her hand.

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    1. The Jacob one is clearly pursuit because it was seven years if work to earn her hand. The hosea one is debatable, but it cannot be denied that he took the initiative. It wasn’t wooing in the traditional sense, if course.

      So it’s Ruth vs Jacob.

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      1. Sorry, pursuit, particularly in today’s lexicon, is about pleasing the woman being sought. Jacob’s transaction, while it might have pleased Rachel, has nothing to do with how she felt about the matter. Cane Caldo and other’s in the thread pretty neatly pull Derek’s argument apart if you’re willing to not color it with modern sensibilities that wouldn’t have applied at the time.

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        1. I see what you’re saying about pleasing the woman, but that’s not what I meant. I meant taking the initiative to push the relationship to marriage. Jacob does that and Ruth does that. So it’s a stalemate. Today, I think women should adopt the Ruth approach given what thedeti said about the risks to men in an age of feminist laws and policies.

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          1. “Second, Boaz was unable to initiate the relationship because the culture prevented it.”

            My argument is actually stronger than I let on. Naomi had to agree to sell Elimelek’s property (including Ruth along with it). Boaz was unable to execute a plan to marry Ruth until Naomi made it possible. Boaz was only constrained by law, not desire. Naomi knew this, which is why she told Ruth that Boaz would immediately act and to follow along.

            Now this is speculation on my part, but there is a strong implication here that Naomi knew about Boaz’s interest in Ruth. Regardless, Ruth’s propositioning Boaz was unequivocally interpreted as a demand that Boaz execute the rights of the kinsman-redeemer. It necessarily implied that Naomi was offering her (and the property) for sale. It was a business transaction offer that Boaz did not misinterpret.

            Ruth, for her part, seems pretty passive and oblivious in the whole affair.

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          2. This goes against what Alistair Begg says in his sermon series, where Ruth is the primary actor. Seeking work, asking her motherhin+law for advice, following the advice, etc. Boaz just responds to her actions in an honorable way. He even say that she is blessed for not choosing younger men, which implies that she chose him and not the reverse.

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          3. “I meant taking the initiative to push the relationship to marriage. Jacob does that and Ruth does that.”
            This demands a response. Let’s look at Ruth in more detail.
            First, Naomi manipulated Ruth’s every action, going so far as to instructing Ruth to “initiate the relationship.” Ruth hardly took charge of the situation: she did what her elder told her to do. (Aside: this is an echo of Esther obeying Mordecai)
            Second, Boaz was unable to initiate the relationship because the culture prevented it. Boaz was not Ruth’s first kinsman-redeemer and did not have immediate claim to marry her. It would have been highly improper for him to make a move on her. It was not his place.
            Third, Boaz clearly “initiated first contact” with Ruth. He went out of his way to make her life easier. He had her dine with him. Yet he was prevented from acting upon it.
            Fourth, it was not until Naomi forced the issue by having Ruth proposition Boaz that he tried to find a way to marry her. He still had to go through proper legal channels to do so. The fact that he was willing to do so is another way that he took charge of the situation.
            We should also be careful using the story of Ruth as some kind of template for finding a marriage partner: she initiated the relationship by propositioning Boaz. She was offering (literally or symbolically is debated) to have sex with (i.e. be married to) Boaz.

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          4. “This goes against what Alistair Begg says in his sermon series, where Ruth is the primary actor.”

            Yes, you are correct: I overstated the passivity of Ruth. She initiated going to the fields to glean. She wished to find the favor of the owner of a field so she could eat (to survive) and because it was dangerous otherwise, perhaps because she was a foreigner. No other motives are given. She didn’t even know that Boaz was family.

            Naomi initiated the process to get Ruth married. Ruth was passive and did what she was told without question. Being a foreigner, she was inexperienced in local traditions and Naomi had to explain them to her.

            “He even say that she is blessed for not choosing younger men, which implies that she chose him and not the reverse.”

            Strictly speaking she did choose Boaz. It was the only way the relationship could have been initiated. Boaz was not permitted to do so on his own, at least until the offer was made. But once it was, he sprang into action on his own. Considering did not have the right of first refusal, this is not the action of a man who didn’t already know who he wanted.

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          5. For me, it’s a foregone conclusion that no man should try to convince a woman to marry him by impressing her with fun and thrills, since this is not sending the right message to her about her roles, responsibilities and obligations in the marriage. That’s not a live option for me. I actually think that’s why there are so many divorces. Men try to attract fun-focused women into marriage with fun, and then when those women see how marriage is work, they divorce.
            The only interesting question is who should take the initiative in a world of false accusations, no-fault divorce, etc. Answer: the woman should, because the man is already on defense in a feminist culture. The woman has to initiate, listen to the man’s plan, and show how she can help him.
            I quoted dalrock and cane’s posts and it’s pretty clear that the example of Jacob doing work for to win Rachel is a counterexample to the view that the Bible does not have men taking the initiative. However it certainly is not Jacob trying to entertain his way into a wife by acting like a clown, which is what women expect of men today, apparently.

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        2. “Cane Caldo and other’s in the thread pretty neatly pull Derek’s argument apart”
          LOL. You call that irrationality pulling my argument apart?
          “…pursuit, particularly in today’s lexicon, is about pleasing the woman being sought.”
          Dalrock’s proper procedure as follows: A woman signals to a man that she is interested in him. Men should never seek a woman who is not signaling him. He should never chase her, that is, try to convince a reluctant woman. A man may put on whatever show he wishes to prove his worth. He should not attempt to be her friend first.
          This is not biblical. Courtly Love might even be more biblical than this.
          I agree with WK that in today’s culture the best choice in many cases is for the woman to initiate the relationship. Yet, there are almost no instances in the Bible where a woman explicitly went after a man. The relationship has almost universally been driven by the men, many who have gone to great lengths (including acts of valor) to acquire their women.
          Women in different cultures are pleased by different things, but men have always been trying to please women.

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          1. Always Remeber that as a man you will find women attractive so even Christian men can feel desires. So it is wise to keep yourself from being alone all the time with women that you find attractive. Also avoid women that are dangerous too that may make accusations or lead to slanderous talk.

            Other then that I think rules are somewhat flexible on dating in Christianity.

            Just don’t waste time dating people that won’t make a good wife. And if you recognize bad traits in a person you are u date don’t feel you must continue dating ro avoid hurting their feelings. It is better to realise it won’t work prior to sex, marriage and kids than after

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  8. I think there might be some confusion over the idea of pursuit. The man should be taking the lead in the relationship, but that does not mean the woman should be passive or expect to be waited on hand and foot. I think a lot of Christian women think the man taking the lead and pursuing them means they are supposed to do nothing but wait to be discovered and have him do all the work in the relationship. But a woman’s job is to invite pursuit from a suitable man and to encourage his pursuit once he begins. She has a very important part to play and if she doesn’t do her part, the relationship doesn’t work properly. It’s a delicate dance that our culture seems to have forgotten in between serial recreational dating and hook-ups, and then the Christian overreaction in the opposite direction to make relationships overly complicated and with little to no period between “hi” and “I do” to get to know one another.

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  9. Wife qualifications in Proverbs 31: 10-31
    First line: Who can find?
    There’s your answer. GO FIND HER.

    A good wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels. 11 The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he will have no lack of gain. 12 She does him good, and not harm, all the days of her life. 13 She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands. 14 She is like the ships of the merchant, she brings her food from afar. 15 She rises while it is yet night and provides food for her household and tasks for her maidens. 16 She considers a field and buys it; with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard. 17 She girds her loins with strength and makes her arms strong. 18 She perceives that her merchandise is profitable. Her lamp does not go out at night. 19 She puts her hands to the distaff, and her hands hold the spindle. 20 She opens her hand to the poor, and reaches out her hands to the needy. 21 She is not afraid of snow for her household, for all her household are clothed in scarlet. 22 She makes herself coverings; her clothing is fine linen and purple. 23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sits among the elders of the land. 24 She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers girdles to the merchant. 25 Strength and dignity are her clothing, and she laughs at the time to come. 26 She opens her mouth with wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue. 27 She looks well to the ways of her household, and does not eat the bread of idleness. 28 Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her: 29 “Many women have done excellently, but you surpass them all.” 30 Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. 31 Give her of the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her in the gates.

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  10. I think men should be the leader in relationships, and in the family in marriage, but now with hyper feminized men raised by single mothers, women will have to take on more of the male role to get these wimps out of their shell! The strong man who can protect and provide for a woman is mostly gone and decried as “toxic masculinity” and taking the lead in the relationship is therefore deemed “toxic” and sexist! 😦 Women are encouraged by the radical feminists to be more unladylike and forward, instead of the subtle demure lady who gently signaled her desire for romance and marriage, rather than the domineering ‘Nasty Woman” pulling her wimp of a boyfriend by the ear to the alter! That is IF they decide to actually marry instead of “cohabitate”!
    https://aladyofreason.wordpress.com/

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  11. Hi, I agree with most of this post and wanted to share a story from my own marriage on what you say about women and fun/responsibility. Just last month we moved into a new house and it was my birthday the following weekend and grandparents offered to watch the kids. My husband asked if I would like to go on a weekend getaway to the Ritz Carlton (we stay there on points from time to time) or would I like to take the kid free time to finish unpacking and really get the house organized. I opted to unpack and organize rather than have fun at a fancy hotel. My husband joked with me that I am the only woman who would turn down the Ritz to unpack, lol! I knew the feeling of completion would be a lot more rewarding than laying around at the pool. It was a good choice.

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  12. Wintery, and I share this with love, can you please read this again?

    In my case I often go through $16 a day at Chick-fil-A. So I’m burning through capital that could be put to better use. When I think of a woman helping, I think of that. It would be a dream come true to get help with my new house. I don’t know how to do a damn thing except mow the lawn, water the lawn, and laundry. The help that a woman could give is on my mind many times a day!

    You seem to have SO many “requirements” for a wife……but could it be that perhaps an older, respectful, responsible, Christian woman would be interested and willing to support your vision? How about a “non-STEMmer,” but a loyal, loving, housewife and a GREAT cook?

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    1. Sarah, when I was 14, I remember thinking that I wanted to get married. But now I am old. I have kept hold of my chastity all this time, and we now know that my decisions in education, career and finances were wise, and would have allowed me to be a provider to a large family. During the time after I graduated college and started working, no woman chose to put their youth and beauty to work in supporting me in the critical period when a wife would have helped. That was when marriage would have been good FOR ME.

      What I have found is that the way the world works, and this is agreed to by Christian parents, Christian pastors, radical feminists, etc., is that young, unmarried Christian women are taught to use their youth and beauty seeking fun and thrills. They use up their best years when they are prettiest chasing thrills with the tall, handsome bad boys. Only when they reach their 30s and 40s do they decide to scramble around looking for a wealthy husband. This is not a good match for me, given the decisions I’ve made with chastity, education, career, and finances.

      Instead of telling me that I need to do anything, why not instead turn to these young, unmarried women in their teens, and tell them to do what I did when I was a teen. Be chaste. Study things that are difficult. Don’t do what you’re passionate about. Don’t take jobs that are easy. Don’t spend money on alcohol, fun, thrills, travel, etc. Never follow your heart. And pursue marriage-prepared men in their early 20s with the view of having an early marriage.

      Now is not the time to approach me, after I have made all the right decisions, and try to get me to match up with someone who didn’t make good decisions. God forgives everyone who asks for it, but I don’t have to marry women who were quite comfortable in an anti-Christian, anti-marriage culture during their young and beautiful years. Feminist hedonism works for women for a time, and then it doesn’t work.

      Marriage is an enterprise. It’s not for women’s happiness. And I am not obligated to make women who didn’t make wise decisions happy when it’s too late for them to invest in me. Women have value in that specific interval when a man is doing hard things early in their careers. Those were the most difficult years of my life, and there was no woman when I needed her. Not even to make me a sandwich or touch my face or hold my hand. There was a narrow window of time in my 20s when marriage to a young, beautiful, chaste and self-sacrificial supporter would have made sense. I was the right man for the husband and father job, and I should have been chosen then for that investment. The time has passed. The women available now cannot go back in time and invest in me when I needed it. I am quite comfortable on my own. They will have to find some other way forward.

      Right now, we are in a period where many women have been voting for taxpayer-funded contraceptives, taxpayer-funded abortions, relaxed divorce laws, student loan bailouts for non-STEM degrees, “pay equity” so that women with women’s studies degrees make as much as petroleum engineers, and many big government social welfare programs designed to allow them to pursue relationships with hot, attractive bad boys. When I see women start to prioritize marriage as God intended it, then maybe I’ll change my mind about marriage.

      Right now, it’s very clear from their relationship choices and voting that they have other priorities than marriage. Women are trying to make a world in which it is easy for them to indulge in relationships with the men they are attracted to, and using government as a safety net, should the hot bad boy plan not “work out”. They don’t want marriage to men like me in the time window that we benefit from marriage. The problem is with them, not me.

      Liked by 1 person

        1. Thanks. I try not to think about it too much.It doesn’t seem to be a concern for anyone how I feel about how women choose, but everywhere I turn, there are lots of people interested in making sure that women get what they want out of me.

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          1. Whatever they decide. Biblically you have Pauls recommendation that if you can control your lust don’t marry because you can focus more on things of God rather than the world if you marry.

            The is no biblical command saying one must marry

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  13. Hello Wintery,
    Thanks for your reply. I’m older (52), and I have saved, earned, and amassed wealth and property (as an English high school teacher!). I’m retired. I’m divorced. My Christian husband left me years ago for another after I had 7 miscarriages due to uterine fibroid tumors. I healed and now relish my roles as mentor, aunt, neighbor, friend and role model. I am fit, healthy, and considered “universally attractive.” I’m not fertile, but I’m receptive and affectionate. You REALLY mean that someone like me, who doesn’t need OR want your wealth, has no value to you? I am an avid cook, homemaker, creator of family holiday celebrations, and I’m active in my community. I volunteer. I have pets and love animals. ALL of this means nothing to you? There are LOTS of women, just like me, who would love to help you.

    “Now is not the time to approach me, after I have made all the right decisions, and try to get me to match up with someone who didn’t make good decisions.”

    OK—but what if an older woman DID make good decisions?

    “I am not obligated to make women who didn’t make wise decisions happy when it’s too late for them to invest in me. Women have value in that specific interval when a man is doing hard things early in their careers.”

    Finding a partner now who shares your beliefs AND supports your interests would NOT be a good investment for your goals now?

    “Those were the most difficult years of my life, and there was no woman when I needed her. Not even to make me a sandwich or touch my face or hold my hand.”

    I’m so sad to read this. It’s frustrating, and very unfair. Still, a sandwich today, gentle touches, a hand to hold……it’s NOT too late. It’s not too late. Why do you seem so closed?

    “I am quite comfortable on my own. They will have to find some other way forward.”

    I hear you. And they will. It just hurts me to think that you seem to have closed the door to partnership.

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