More and more women are asking why they can’t find a good man to marry

Do young women understand how to get to a stable marriage?
Do young women understand how to get to a stable marriage?

In the last few months, I’ve met 5 different Christian women in their 30s who all asked me the same question: where are all the good men who want to marry me?

Christian men’s rights blogger Dalrock had two different posts where he described the answer to this question.

Here is the first post from Dalrock that concisely illustrates the problem:

As I wrote in A very long season, feminists don’t want to waste a day more of their youth and fertility on their husbands than absolutely necessary. As if to prove this very point, 30 year old Mona Chalabi writes in the NY Times* I Want My 2.3 Bonus Years:

If I could prolong my time as a young adult by, say, 2.3 years, here is a list of things I would like to do:

• Go to more parties. Preferably wild parties that I can think about, years later, at mild parties.

[…]• Have more romantic partners.

[…]• Get a bit higher up the career ladder a bit earlier on. That would probably boost my earnings, giving me more financial security. I could use that money to go to more parties, get a membership to a fancy gym and maybe even meet a romantic partner on the ab machines.

To drive the message home, the image at the top of the article is a cartoon of a resentful Chalabi giving her future husband the side eye for her lost years of sampling penises!

Surely, this must be an isolated case just for New York Times feminists, right? It’s not widespread, is it?

Second post from Dalrock:

Margaret Wente at the Globe and Mail* asks where all the good men have gone.  Wente comes to the conclusion that women need a sex cartel:

…it’s up to us to make the rules. “Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?” my father used to say. It drove me crazy when he said that. Now, it’s dawned on me that he was right.

Since the women’s cartel collapsed, women’s bargaining power has seriously eroded. That’s why so many single women hate Tinder, which has further commodified sex for the benefit of men. Women are just another consumer good in the shop window.

The apex fallacy aside, Wente is partially right.  Women (as a group) have signaled to men that what they really want are exciting sexy badboys, not boring loyal dudes. It isn’t that women no longer want to marry beta providers, they just don’t want to waste a day more of their youth and fertility on their husband than absolutely necessary.

As a result, some up and coming boring loyal dudes aren’t knocking themselves out in their twenties while they wait for their future wife to tire of having sex with other men.

If you wonder why men are no longer performing in school, and exchanging careers for video games, the answer is simple. Men have realized that young women today, under the influence of feminism, are not interested in traditional husbands during their late teens and 20s. During these years, women are interested in travel, fun, drinking, hook-ups and cohabitation with amoral atheists. This is what I have personally observed. In the minds of young women, the highest value men are good-looking men who have no religion, and make no moral judgments, and are left of center politically – especially on abortion. There are many good men who are romantic about women from their youth, and want to get married. But when they see what young women really want, they just give up on school and work, since doing the traditional male roles has no value to young women. Many good men even give up on morality and Christianity because they want a relationship with a woman so badly.

More from second post:

What Wente doesn’t understand is that timing is everything.  From an economic point of view, women are dividing up sexual access that traditionally would have been reserved only for their husband into two blocks.  The first block contains their most attractive and fertile years, and it is dedicated to no strings sex with exciting badboys.  Then, once women reach what Rollo calls the epiphany phase, they want to bargain sexual access in their remaining (older and less fertile) years for maximum beta bucks.

The problem with this strategy is (generally speaking) not that the previously overlooked beta men will refuse to marry the suddenly reformed party girls.  The problem is that young men now look at the men 3-5 (and even 5-10) years older than them and don’t see an indication that signaling provider status will make them attractive to women.  They also see a society that holds married fathers in contempt**.  Most of these men are still working hard in their late teens and twenties to prepare to signal provider status in their 30s.  But a growing minority of young men are no longer doing so.  These men are instead working like women.  Once the reformed party girls are ready to find Mr. Beta Bucks, there is a shortage of 30 something men who fit the bill.  Even worse, no amount of complaining or shaming will cause the missing beta providers to go back in time and spend the prior decade preparing for this moment.

I’m one of the last men who followed the marriage-preparedness script for traditional men who wanted to marry and have four children and have a stay-at-home homeschooling mom to raise them from birth to graduate school. I find myself now in my early 40s, with a 6-figure income and a nearly 7-figure net worth. I declined to use those assets to play the field with hot bad girls, preferring instead to keep my sexual past completely clean for my eventual wife. However, what I observed in my late teens and 20s and even early 30s was a complete lack of interest in marriage ability, from non-Christian women and Christian women alike. Christian women aren’t learning to value early marriage from their married parents or their evangelical churches. None of the traditional husband skills are valued by young women, i.e. – chastity, gapless resume, alcohol abstinence, undergraduate and graduate STEM degrees, experience nurturing and mentoring others, stewardship of earned income.

I recently caused an uproar on my Facebook page by saying that even if the perfect woman showed up right now to marry me, I would not pursue her because the critical time where the woman could have applied maximum youth, beauty and fertility as a wife to make an impact on my education, early career, health, and finances has passed. A younger woman develops value to her husband precisely by applying herself to him and to her family in these critical early years. Men who have experienced this self-sacrificial love and support are loyal to their wives even after their wives lose their youth and beauty. Why? Because the men know that they are much better than they could have been, having enjoyed that early investment of value made by their young wives.

Young women very supportive of premarital sex
Young women very supportive of premarital sex

As Christian writer Matt Walsh notes in a recent article at the Daily Wire, this “follow your heart” focus on happiness in women is lethal to marital stability, and men know it.

Excerpt:

There was an article in Cosmo this week with a title that summarizes all that’s wrong with Cosmo and modern society as a whole: “I eloped at 25, divorced at 26, and dated my way across Europe all summer.” Of course, by “dated my way across Europe” she means that she slept with half the continent.

The author, Elise, says she “started fighting” with her husband and within a few months they both decided that their differences were irreconcilable. Despite counseling, she says, “neither of us was happy.” So, exhausted from 12 whole months of marriage, Elise embarked on a voyage of self-discovery and STD cultivation. She met random dudes in half a dozen countries and had sex with them, learning quite a lot as she went, though she can’t really explain what exactly she learned or why sex was a necessary component in learning it. Finally, she came home and started dating some other guy. The end.

Well, not really the end. 20 years from now I’m sure we’ll get the follow up article: “I’m alone and miserable and it’s everyone’s fault but mine.” After all, you may be able to fill the emptiness in your soul with frivolous sex when you’re young and physically desirable, but that phase is fleeting. People who don’t want to “waste” their beauty and youth on a spouse, so they waste it instead on strangers who don’t love them or even care what happens to them tomorrow, will be shocked when a tomorrow comes where even strangers aren’t interested anymore. This is where the single-minded, utterly selfish pursuit of “happiness” at all costs inevitably leads: to rejection, despair, and a quiet, unnoticed death on a lonely hospital bed.

As Elise helpfully demonstrated, “do what makes you happy” is poison in a marriage. Many a vow has been broken because one or both partners decide to chase “happiness” instead of commitment, fidelity, and love. “I deserve to be happy,” reports the legion of serial divorcees, as they drift on to the next spouse, and the next, and the next, and the next, looking for the one — the one, finally — who might cure the misery they’ve inflicted on themselves. Increasingly unhappy, yet increasingly convinced that they deserve to be.

And this follow your heart to happiness situation is alive and well in the church today. Marriage-minded Christian men who have prepared for husband roles are surprised to find that there is often little or no difference between Elise and the Christian women the church produces. Christian men who desire to invest in a marriage that is stable, productive and influential have nowhere to turn for a wife who is able and willing to help. In my experience, the problem with happiness-focused women who delay marriage is never discussed in churches from the pulpit. The “good men to marry” that today’s 30-something women are looking for were plentiful back when those same women were in their early-to-mid 20s.

54 thoughts on “More and more women are asking why they can’t find a good man to marry”

  1. Exactly. What isn’t talked about enough is that this practice is alive and well inside the church. Glad you brought it up.

    No, not every church-going single Christian woman is having sex across Europe, nor her own city or town. What is alive and well. Is a very, very passive-aggressive attitude towards men. Here are some of the qualities an average, Christian woman wants in a man. These of course are not too much to expect by someone who has been “Saved” because a real man will meet everyone of her requirements. If not? He is a wretched boy who refuses to “man up” and better himself. Here is a very short list of what he must have in order to marry an average looking, boring, zero personality Christian woman that fills 90% of the pews in the USA today! Remember, these requirements are not a complete list.

    He is to be a leader (but that “leadership” is never clearly defined, as long as his leadership also doesn’t make her mad or uncomfortable), he is to be good looking on a cultural standard. He is to have money saved for his future children for their college fund. A down payment READY for a brand new house, and if he doesn’t have that at 21???? Shame on him!!! He has all the opportunities in the world because he was born a man!!!!!! He will have a well paying job at 21, 22, 34, 36, 45. He is to be a man with a plan, have it all figured out, be outgoing…but not too outgoing, be confident (what she really means is arrogant), and bold, 100000 million percent for Jesus….but only when it benefits her. He should be able to fix all her problems, but yet be belittled in front of other men, ex-boyfriends and other female cliques in the church. He should know divination, ESP, and mind reading and be able to know exactly when she is PMS-ing so her can adjust his behavior to make her life easier. He should be sensitive and caring……but not too sensitive because that would make him a wuss. He should be exactly like Jesus. He WILL cause envy with all the other women in the church and if he is a reformed bad-boy, she will get the credit for “bringing him to Jesus” also remember, if he is a bad-boy…..all the above requirements go out the window until she gets buyers remorse……so then she can blame him for her bad choices…….He will have an amazing testimony, and will have done at least 3 mission trips by the time he is 25.

    All of this to “pursue” an average woman, past her prime for children for the most part, and be a “yes my queen” servant and still miss the mark. To be reminded every month for a ring that cost WAY more than two months salary, and other bills for an overpriced wedding. An average wedding (Christian or not) costs well over 25K today….and takes several YEARS to pay off.

    We hear ALL THE TIME how men won’t step up. Wont be “men” and won’t pursue.

    The only thing too many Christian women in the USA bring to the table is: sex, and from all the books…….sermons, help guides online, classes…it’s only to be given begrudgingly or only for “making children”
    or when he is a “good boy” for a few months.

    The princess complex / mentality within the church walls today is stifling. All she has to do is just “show up”

    This is a stark reason why so many men inside the church are frankly done, and will never marry.

    1. Don’t forget the thousands for the wedding costs. And she isn’t paying for it, with her 20K of outstanding student loans!

      I’m fine with a woman in her mid-20s coming up to me and asking for all that stuff from me when she’s 25 and debt-free. That’s reasonable. If she is promising to not withhold sex, to be stay at home wife and mother, to homeschool / private school the kids, and to navigate them through college and to the workplace, and help them find mates, then that’s real value to me. I’d be willing to work to age 65 for a wife and kids and grand kids. But when the woman shows up at 35, what is the value proposition to to the man? I did all the work myself, already.

      1. AANNND don’t forget the tens to hundreds of thousands which the ex-husband will pay in alimony and ‘child support’ (even if he isn’t the children’s biological father), plus the cost of the house, car, and other properties, when the ex-Party Princess tires of being his wife, becomes “unhaaappy”, and files for divorce.

        1. This is my great worry about women and marriage.

          I’ve read a lot of books and studies on why women initiate 69% of divorces and my take-away lesson was that it is because they have this idea that marriage is going to make them happy without them having to do anything. They are looking for relationships that create no expectations and obligations on them, and they are terrified about being “trapped” into long-term commitments that don’t fulfill their needs. They expect marriage to be “happily ever after” – without them having to do anything self-sacrificial.

          I can remember my own mother telling my father that he promised her a house on a hill and two servants whenever he asked her to do anything around the house. He ended up doing all the cooking and the cleaning, too. Anything that she didn’t feel like doing, she didn’t do. Men need to understand that marriage requires them to hazard all their assets to this sort of passive entitlement. The woman’s perception of marriage is that she does nothing, and everyone around her exists for her happiness. Even her children, which is why so many women today are happy dumping them in daycare to get back to work.

          That’s what I am looking at, this perception is that marriage is for women. Anything that goes wrong is the man’s fault for not meeting her needs. I think that if that is the deal, I’m not interested, and I’ve never yet met a young, unmarried woman who had any idea that marriage would involve any work for her. She wants to do whatever she feels like doing to be happy, moment by moment, with no plan for the marriage to be effective and influential. No thought that the marriage has to count for anything above her own immediate needs for happiness.

          https://winteryknight.com/2015/08/31/new-study-the-majority-69-of-divorces-are-initiated-by-women/

          1. ‘He ended up doing all the cooking and the cleaning, too. Anything that she didn’t feel like doing, she didn’t do.’

            With a helpmate like that…he would of just been better off single

            (notwithstanding the fact you wouldn’t be here…but I hope you get my point)

      2. But when the woman shows up at 35, what is the value proposition to to the man?

        WK, that is an atrocious thing to say. A woman is only worth the work she does for you? If you really believe this, you don’t want a wife, you want a servant, and that, you can easily find at any time. Go for it!
        A woman, just like any human being, has intrinsic value. If you want a companion you can love, and serve, and enjoy, and bring closer to Christ, and support through the difficulties of life, and cry with, and rejoice with, and die for—someone who is not like you, who sees the world differently as a woman, who brings joy and beauty to the home you share, who sharpens you spiritually and intellectually, through whom God will make you more holy to your dying day (not just until she’s 35)—that, and much more, is the value of a woman.

        1. I think part of the problem we are seeing with women who delay marriage is that they are unable to state why men would marry at all. They think that it is their birthright to demand whenever they get around to it, and just assume that men will be there, and have no expectations whatsoever. I had a plan for my marriage. No one showed up in the time period when I felt it was a fair exchange of value. You may disagree with my view of value but it’s not your decision who I marry. It’s mine.

          Men don’t marry for the same reasons women do, and no amount of pouting is a substitute for what a woman in her early-to-mid 20s offers a man at the time when he is facing struggles in his education, early career, health, finances, and sex life. If my struggles were not a priority for women back then, then surely the needs of women NOW that I have matured on my own steam is similarly none of my concern. The issue is timing. The investment has maximum impact in a specific time period, and women have more of what influences a man when they are younger. For one thing, children. For another, sex drive. For a third, physical attractiveness.

          I wonder how far a man would get by talking about “intrinsic value” while refusing to do any of the canonical husband duties – like being the main provider? That’s a question women never ask themselves, in my experience. I wonder why that is? Regardless, it certainly makes my decision to fly solo an easy one. I find the comments trying to shame and bully me into a forced marriage terrifying, to say the least.

          1. Yeah how often do women talk about the man’s ‘intrinsic value’. They sure do forget about it when they are not happy and initiate divorce.

            I think you know the reason…women are run by their feelings and emotions and seem to think those dictate the world. It’s no surprise a lot of them feel like they can delay marriage for their fun phase and then expect a man to be there when they are 35. Then they get all mad when their feelings don’t produce the desired results because that’s not how reality works.

          2. (Responding to a couple comments here:) I think we’re talking past each other. I’m not challenging the idea that women ought to live moral lives and seek marriage early, nor am I challenging the idea that both men and woman ought to have standards regarding who they would consider marrying. I’m responding to the idea that you would not marry “the perfect woman” once you’re both over 35 because she can’t offer any value as a wife. My point is merely that a spouse’s value extends beyond wallet or womb.
            The situation of the former druggie (see My 2 Cents’ comment) is not analogous. If we’re talking about rejecting “the perfect woman” because she’s over 35, this is analogous: If I were to meet a man of proven good character who happened to have lost his material wealth (not because of character issues), I wouldn’t automatically rule him out as a spouse. This is because a husband is more than a wallet.
            This is not to say that you, personally, must get married, or even that you should get married. If you truly don’t think a woman has value as a wife if you marry her after 35, I don’t think you should get married. All I’m saying is that if you would reject “a perfect woman” merely because you’re both over 40, you would miss out on the value God would bring to your life through her. In other words, I’m answering your question, “What is the value proposition to the man?” for a “perfect woman” of noble character who is over 35—the situation you say you would reject—by saying there is value to a wife of noble character, barren or not.

          3. Amy Hall we are biological creature. Most women are looking men with the same social status or more. If she well educated and make a high income she wants the same in a man. Men prefer fertile women because it’s due to his biology.
            Also women in their 30’s are less feminine as a whole. Women are used to be single and not wanting to be submissive. Women want to be the head of the house hold and control the man for various reasons.
            Women that aren’t submissive will be spending money that is out of control.
            You think that a woman in her 30’s is a perfect woman but in a man’s eyes she is not in most cases. You also forget women in their 30’s and older are more likely have miscarriages, birth defects and other complications.

        2. Amy,

          I’m not trying to troll you or insult you. This is an honest question, and I genuinely want to know the answer.

          Suppose a 43 year old man started attending your church. He’d just gotten saved after more than 20 years of drinking, drugs, and perpetual unemployment. He’s out of shape, and doesn’t do well with grooming and other acts of appearance. However, he’s interested in finding a wife and approaches you promising that he’s ready to love you no matter what and be at your side as a companion you can love.

          Would you consider marrying such a person based on his intrinsic value as a person?

    1. Yes…quite a few writings I’ve read from theologians in the Catholic church when talking about chastity is that you see the person in their entirety. They aren’t an outlet for your sexual pleasure…so you get to know their personality traits, relationships with family and friends, etc. Basically you don’t treat them like an object. I often wonder why some men/women keep going to the slaughterhouse choosing bad news women/men and I think living an unchaste lifestyle could be the root of it.

  2. Reblogged this on Site Title and commented:
    The values of the Ten Commandments, whether the society believes their Godly source or not, are what produce the best, lasting results for any people.

  3. A close friend of mine was divorced by his wife. She first cheated on him with another man. She then initiated the divorce. He begged her to try marital counseling and wanted desperately to save their marriage. She refused.

    They went to divorce court. The judge awarded his wife full custody of their 2 children and 90% of my friends assets. This story makes me quite wary of marriage with a threat like this hanging over your head.

  4. The women asking that question are usually those who are in their thirties and older; they have also been asking that question for at least the last thirty to forty years.
    I think that they keep asking that question because the answer (or rather, answers) that they are given are — simply put — those that they don’t want to hear.

  5. ‘In my experience, the problem with happiness-focused women who delay marriage is never discussed in churches from the pulpit.’

    Probably because they’d be unhaaaaaaapy to hear the truth. The big problem is both sexes have flipped the script and gave up their God given roles.

    Now the husband is basically the ‘helpmate’ to a wife who worships herself.

  6. I think it is easy for either gender to sit back and catalog the selfishness of the other gender because we’re all terribly selfish as humans. The default for everyone– men or women– is to seek their own happiness at the cost of others because we’re sinful. Men and women are each prone to doing this in our own ways. Critiques like this are easy to mount and oh-so-delectable because that image of the selfish, uncaring, entitled woman will ring true in the experience of many men. But the reverse is also true– the selfish, uncaring, entitled man is also true in the experience of many women. For your “horror stories” about “terrible” women, I could tell equal horror stories about “terrible” men. That’s because it’s human nature, not “male” or “female” nature that is to blame. But I could also tell stories of men and women committed to life together for the sake of the gospel and of their joy….of single men and women choosing God over culture even when it’s deeply costly. This church doesn’t need to single out young unmarried women as the object of censure any more than we need to single out young unmarried men. What we do need, as a church, is a robust reminder of God’s plan for men, women, marriage and singleness that shows our culture a beauty they cannot understand. I think Tim Keller’s book on marriage does a great job at unmasking selfishness as the root cause of so many of our flawed relationship expectations and then making a gospel-based case for marriage. I know plenty of young women who are interested in marriage for gospel reasons and ready to do the hard work involved. I was one of them (and still am).

    1. The difference between the horror stories that men and women tell is simple.

      1) Women tell horror stories about the bad boys they are attracted to and choose to engage with sexually. They complain that they did not get the results they wanted from these bad boys. In short, they expected bad boys to act like good men if given sex, but when they didn’t it’s a horror story. And those bad boys were not chosen because they exhibited any signs of wanting commitment or being capable of it. Similarly, married women tell horror stories about the bad boys they freely chose to marry, above all the other men in the world, and try to pretend they are victims even though they are (again) choosing bad boys who they are attracted to instead of men who can do the husband job. In short, women complain about bad boys they freely chose.

      2) Men like tell horror stories about Christian-raised girls (ostensibly “good girls”) who delay marriage to play the field. Although men like me have the work history, income and savings to support a marriage and four kids, we cannot get any good girls to engage in the marriage plan because they are attracted to bad boys, and using desperate means (oral sex on the first date, etc.) to go for bad boys. In short, men complain about women who refuse to choose marriage.

      Do you see the problem now?

      Also, most of the girls who are raised in the church aren’t marriage-ready even if they are not doing this. I have yet to meet an unmarried Christian who had read even the most basic book on evidential apologetics, which is basically just a signal to marriage-ready men that she’s not serious about engaging the culture and protecting her children from lies. They haven’t prepared themselves to do the job in this environment. The most common case I see though is the Christian woman raised in a married Christian home who goes atheist from 18-32 and then suddenly goes back to being a Christian as her youth and beauty are fading.

      1. Whaaaaaatt???? I can’t help it if all the men I’m friends are either virgins or married as virgins. The only divorced one married as a virgin, and his wife developed a mental illness after that. I don’t hang out with bad men, so naturally, I don’t KNOW any bad men. We don’t do bad men things. I’m sure there are *some* bad men out there but I never hear about them. I only meet the 36 and 37 year old Christian reverts who had bulimia, alcoholism and cohabitated with atheists in their 20s. They were all raised in married Christian homes, and just went crazy and now they want marriage in their mid to late 30s.

        1. WK, if your social circle is admittedly limited, why are you reacting to the suggestion that not all men reflect the qualities of your social circle?

          More important, citing your observations from your own social circle says nothing about whether or not the Ani comment is accurate or scripturally sound. Nothing.

          You know how to think logically. Do it here.

  7. From what I’ve heard, a big part of the problem is that women find the traits that make a man a good husband to be boring, that is, sexually unattractive.

    In the past, many more women than today were willing to accept that as part of life, and specifically being tied to an unattractive husband as a necessary consequence of greater economic security for themselves and their children.

    Economic “independence” for women – not truly, because they still need employers and the welfare state there as a backup, and because every good thing they enjoy comes from God whether they acknowledge him or not – has ruined them.

    They now think they can, or at least ought to be able to, indulge their fleshly desires with no thought for physical, emotional or spiritual consequences.

    (And yes, I’m aware there are exceptions. By God’s grace I seem to have found one. But excessive liberty is as bad for women as it is for men, though it presents differently.)

    1. I think that as we see more and more young women postponing marriage for flings with bad boys, we will see an even greater percentage of young women voting for the Democrat Party, with high taxes and more social programs that make husbands and families 1) UNNECESSARY FINANCIALLY and 2) UNAFFORDABLE FOR MEN TO HAVE A STAY AT HOME MOM. So, if the man’s plan is to have 4 children and have the mother stay home to raise them, it will become impossible. If normal men are anything like me, then this means there is no point marrying, since that’s what we hope to achieve through marriage: a peaceful home and a legacy.

      I’m not sorry for the women who are destroying themselves like this, since they are the ones who made the decision to make sex cheap for bad boys, and marriage expensive for god men.

      1. Yep. For these women, who wants to put up with sharing her home and her body with some icky (I.e. less than star status) man, when she can achieve the same financial benefits just by joining with her peers and voting appropriately?

        I find it perplexing that some commenters are saying that women write men off because those men are addicted to porn and video games. Sure, there’s a vicious circle in play. But it has to be understood that the “addiction” itself is something of a despair response. In my mid 20s, I had jumped up a rung or two on the career ladder and was about to buy real estate. I was, in a word, doing all those things that men do who want to signal provider status. Ha! And I would walk to work from my car park, and ask myself what the point of it all was?

        Never underestimate the ability of men to respond to incentives or the lack thereof.

        1. I’m asking myself what the point of all of this “signaling provider status” was, but that’s why we have early retirement, which is fine.

          I know the person who left the video game comment. So I sent her a screenshot of my Fidelity account and told her that this was in addition to the house I just bought for cash. Clearly, video games hasn’t stopped me from succeeding professionally and financially.

          Men play video games for the simple reason that they are rewarded and praised for being heroic. In real life, women are rewarding men these days for being selfish and irresponsible bad boys. It’s no wonder at all that video games are so popular. There was a time when women did prefer good character and heroic behavior in men, but that time has (it seems to me) passed. Now they like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, because abortion and free condoms or something.

          1. It must be said that devoting one’s free time to video games (or any other combination of solitary and masculine activities) does limit one’s opportunities to meet young women. While it’s good to not make finding a spouse the #1 life goal, a young man shouldn’t think a good woman is just going to fall into his lap one day either.

            And we can, as men, be courageous, decisive and refuse to make pleasing women our #1 priority. Thus, we honour God while also making ourselves more attractive.

            But as for women who insist on squandering their youth with bad boys, they have made their beds. Now let them lie in them. Forgiveness is always available for the one who repents and puts her trust in Christ, but divine forgiveness doesn’t remove all consequences in this life.

  8. A contraceptive mentality leads women to engage in premarital sex since she now believes it is very low risk or even without risk at all. In the past, a prospective slut knew she might get pregnant and be stuck raising a child without a man to support her, and that gave her a lot of incentive to save sex for marriage and look for a husband. But if she can have sex without such serious consequences, thanks to contraception, she now has very little reason to be chaste or to marry until she finally decides that she wants a child.
    There are many bad effects from a contraceptive mentality – the idea that children are burdens to be avoided, that sex has no link to procreation, and that our fertility is and should be completely under our control. One of the main ones is the encouragement of promiscuity, especially among women.
    https://lindsays-logic.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-effects-of-contraceptive-mentality.html

  9. Interesting comments. Two of my sons have been married in the last year, and we absolutely love their spouses. I would suggest that any man looking for a Christian spouse spend as much time as possible volunteering in Christian based organizations. This is where you will find women who have hearts for Jesus, and place greater value on family and relationships than material things. Of course, physical attraction plays a role, but we all get old and ugly, so this is a superficial way of deciding on a spouse. I have been on a number of missions trips over the years, and am amazed at the wonderful young women that also participate. You don’g give up precious vacation time and spend it doing dirty, often menial work unless you are less self centered than the secular world – as a general statement.
    Also, there is no perfect spouse, so don’t think you are “settling” if a potential spouse is lacking in a particular area. Simply decide on your order of priorities – hopefully a God centered person being first – and go from there. When I met my wife, she only had a high school education, but that was not a priority. She had common sense, and a deep faith. People to have deep intellectual discussions with are a dime a dozen, so don’t get too caught up in degrees. Some of the smartest people I know have had a very limited education. Money is irrelevant as we who follow God’s word know that He will provide.

    1. Thanks for your perspective. You’ve done well with your marriage because you married young. Thats what I wanted as well. Too bad I couldn’t find anyone to pair up with.

    1. The issue is not my feelings, it’s how best to make use of my assets and talents. I have to do the right thing for the Kingdo. I’m just explaining to women as a warning that early marriage to a marriage-minded man is best. They ought to want to get started on their marriage as early as possible so that they can see the investment they make in their husbands and families produce maximal results. Just like investments, marriage work best when you start on it early and make frequent deposits. Waiting until the last minute loses all the advantages of the union.

  10. I’m tempted to put on my engineer hat (i.e., “Mr. Fix-It”).

    If we study church history, in periods (and thus also in areas) where Christianity is the majority and/or normative, you’ll find a lot of nominalism. In periods (and in areas) where Christianity is persecuted, you’ll find much fewer Christians — but arguably more articulate and more devout Christians.

    (Most of my really godly Christian male friends, who wanted to be married, married later in life, like 30-42. They tended to be overlooked by the average church-going woman. I really do think that carnal Christian women tend to defer to their evolutionary biology i.e., tall, powerful/wealthy men of the same race who are very socially adept, etc.)

    I’ve read a lot of blogs where even non-Americans point out that Christian women are pining for their Joseph / Boaz / name some intriguing biblical male figure / etc. -like masculine figure to waltz into their lives, but fail to look for the very things (character, expressing itself by actions) that define Joseph, Boaz, Daniel, Moses.

    Joseph refused to commit adultery with the wife of his boss, Potiphar, and went to jail for a crime he did not commit. He spent another two whole years (Gen. 41:1) in jail until the chief cupbearer remembered that Joseph knew God well enough to be able to interpret dreams.

    Boaz (kind of like the biblical Mr. Darcy — he’s rich enough to be a land-owner and had servants) actually deferred Ruth’s double-marriage proposal as there was a closer redeemer (Ruth 3:12). He did the right thing. (A closer reading will note that Boaz may have been an older man, as he refers to “younger men” that Ruth has not chased, and that Ruth was a Moabitess [Deut. 23:3 “No Ammonite or Moabite or any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, not even in the tenth generation”] but her faith got her included in the lineage of David, who built the temple.)

    Moses had just fled to Midian after striking down an Egyptian. (Exodus 2:11-15) (Not the best marriage-material)

    And so on.

    In seeking a godly, devout and wise Christian woman, this is extremely rare, but do not be discouraged. In fact, she should be rare enough that, should you see her, you should have plenty of motivation to pursue. Moreover, you don’t need many good Christian women. You just need one for a spouse.

    I also think that it’s helpful to think about where you might meet such quality Christian women. Obviously you won’t run into high quality Christian women at Alcoholics Anonymous meetings (or at a pickup bar or a nightclub). Moreover, it’s a chance encounter if one runs into such a woman at a worship service or singles ministry event. Besides, you want to put your best foot forward when you do meet.

    Based on my last number of years of being single (caveat: I did get married in my late 30’s and met my wife in my mid-30’s), I would say:
    – seminary: although a lot of Christian women tend to be younger, like in their 20’s. Seminary is the academic arm of the church. They’re obviously academic and are Christian leaders. (Plus I was a seminarian.)

    – training sessions for BIble study/small group leaders

    – introductions by mature Christian friends and pastors

    – (singles ministry) Welcome Dinners: it was a much smaller setting than my church’s singles ministry and this setting was very positive for me (allowed me to serve others, helping them to connect, allowed me to meet new people as well as the veterans who were serving).

    – some ministry events (e.g., I did registration for an apologetics conference only after I was married for a while, but that’s helpful in terms of meeting people).

    – any social event (if you get an invitation to anything, go to it, even for a short while) — including ones that friends and I organized and hosted. It is of great social value to be able to have a nice social event, with balanced number of each gender and everyone has a great time. I had a couple of single male friends with whom we hosted dinner parties and wine and cheese parties (we emphasized quality over quantity) and even invited pastors to join us.

    – eHarmony (I know the odds are low: they say that about 80,000 couples of their website end up in marriage per year = 160,000 members, as compared a total membership of about 33 million, or less than 0.5% of their membership per year)

    – develop friendships with solid Christian women (using one’s friendship to influence them to godliness). Besides, I received an excellent commendation — I met one Christian lady and the chemistry wasn’t quite right, but I treated her well. She later started dating her now-husband, and I met my now-wife. It turns out that these two ladies were best friends in high school and the friend had nothing but nice things to say to my wife.

    (And besides, as a married man, I’m tempted to approach some of my single female friends to assist them as well as figuring out who’s in their social circle…)

    Even if you meet someone who looks good on paper / by all estimates, it may not work out.

    I also advocate for solid Christian men not only to work on their holiness/sanctification, but developing discernment and social skills (some alluded to above). I wonder if I should type something up on social power-balance and relationships.

    1. It’s not about finding one for a spouse. It’s about the legal system that all the others vote in. It’s about the view of make leadership in Christian circles. It’s about whether circumstances are likely to need help going forward. And it’s about whether any kind of real bond can be formed after all the battles were fought by me alone already.

      1. Not exactly certain what you are focusing on, but let me stab a few guesses:
        – (#1) you don’t like that the courts in general highly favor the woman/wife in the case of divorce including visitation rights and alimony?

        – (#2) you don’t like that many pastors tend to demonize Christian men, making them sound like incompetent and inane wusses, who should think with the wrong head, aren’t “manning up and marrying all these marry-able eligible saintly highly virtuous Christian women”?

        – (#3) you don’t like de facto feminists or cultural feminists in the church and/or female entitlement?

        So #1, when I was single and dating, I had a litmus test: I won’t marry anyone I wouldn’t fully trust. If anything raises questions (red flags, etc.) and/or I thought I needed a prenup, I wouldn’t bother with that person. I never discussed my finances, although discerning women picked up that I owned a luxury high rise condo and I did tell my then-girlfriend now-wife that I had no debt and no college (or seminary) debt — I was one of the very few minority who could pay for my own seminary classes, cash out of pocket and graduated with no loans. (It helped that I was an engineer in high tech.) The few discerning women , maybe a dozen or so, inferred a number of things — not because I told them anything about my finances, but reading in between the lines.

        I didn’t want someone to be attracted to me because of my income and/or earning potential. I dressed nicely (clean, no holes, business casual) but not seemingly expensively (i.e., no shiny shirts as per James 2:2). Yes, I was very calculated in my appearance and it helped me to discern whether someone was dismissive because I didn’t appear wealthy or whatever.

        I can’t really change the legal system but I can work around the system. The state in which I live actually favors the non-cheating spouse (the cheating spouse is deemed irresponsible and reckless towards the welfare of the children, etc.) Odd for being a blue state, but hey. (My senior pastor did a lot of research into legal systems around marriage, divorce, and family in addition to his Old Testament studies and exegesis for his doctoral thesis … which is why some people nicknamed him, “Dr. Marriage”.)

        He has an interesting quote here regarding getting married before engaging in sexual intimacy:
        “It is indisputable that sexual intercourse is reserved for marriage from the Bible’s perspective…

        Finally, I would say that there are of course a zillion benefits (health, marital happiness, and otherwise) to adopting some kind of conservative understanding of sexual intimacy outside marriage… One that may not occur to couples, however, is the way this will produce an unshakable trust in the fidelity of your spouse that will stay with you throughout your marriage. If you were unable to wear down the other’s defenses and were able yourself to resist the temptation of sleeping together, in spite of your deep love for each other and your raging hormones, you can be sure that no one else will ever be able to get any further!”

        tl;dr summary: “You practice self-control to develop and nurture trust for each other.”

        #2. Sure, it takes two to tango — meaning men and women have to agree to have premarital sex. I have seen and heard of plenty of bad examples of Christian men (and Christian women). I’ve heard plenty of Christian women express unhappiness about an apparent double standard in terms of chastity. And sometimes I think the pendulum has swung too far.

        Proverbs is written in androcentric language (and of course, the exception of the acrostic of the Proverbs 31 woman). However, we should not think that Proverbs is only written to men and especially young/younger men. Women should also avoid the seducer, the adulterer.

        I certainly don’t think demonizing one sex or the other helps.

        Teaching women how exactly to support and to encourage good leadership — well, that’s an excellent topic.

        #3. I always avoided any woman who self-labeled “feminist” or smacked of feminism. And while I don’t believe that God espouses any political party in any particular country, there were certain women (especially progressive or SJWs or those who tended to favor certain parties without critical and Christian worldview thinking) with whom I just wouldn’t bother.

        I usually saw it this way, in general about friendships: there is some give and take with friendships. I don’t mind giving 60/40 or 70/30 or being more generous at times. However, I usually asked myself the question: “Is this person a friend or a ministry?” If it’s the latter, I didn’t bother even exploring whether I wanted to date that person.

        The Bible (and extrabiblical literature) is full of examples of discernment and utilizing wisdom in one’s choice as well as negative consequences for being unwise (e.g., Samson). Abraham’s unnamed servant was not haphazard in his selections. He went to the well (everyone has to get water), and he prayed for a woman who would exemplify extraordinary hospitality, servanthood, and self-sacrifice (Genesis 24:14, “Let the young woman to whom I shall say, ‘Please let down your jar that I may drink,’ and who shall say, ‘Drink, and I will water your camels’”). Earlier in the text, we know this servant had ten camels (24:10). A thirsty camel can drink up to 30 imperial gallons (source: National Geographic) or 135L for the metric/SI readers. That’s something transporting 2500-3000 pounds and would require multiple trips. I’m not sure what the modern day equivalent would be. Maybe something like … I will use the conference budget and personally shop for and prepare a banquet for our apologetics speakers and their families?

        As for forming a bond, well — trust starts somewhere, and it’s best to start with a quality prospect.

        And addressing the issue of value and what not — the Bible does not expect me to treat all Christian women like a marriage prospect. In fact, that would be horrendous to do so. I treat all people who self-profess to be Christians as Christians unless their choices/decisions/actions tell me otherwise, and then I go through Matthew 18:15ff. I affirm my Christian female friends as worthy of friendship and I affirm their value as daughters of God. At the same time, the Bible encourages every man to utilize discernment in selecting a wife (and every woman to utilize discernment in selecting a husband).

        In a way, a person is the sum of everything that he or she brings to a marriage — and more. All of one’s experiences, education, issues, parental upbringing, Christian conversion if not raised by Christian parents, one’s Christian walk, good choices and bad choices, credit scores, financial health or lackthereof, and so on.

        Let’s flip it around — not even say speaking about negatives. Let’s say a single man believes he is called to be a pastor. Not every Christian woman would want to be a pastor’s wife. Maybe the woman doesn’t have the right temperament or the right disposition. Maybe she doesn’t want that ‘burden’ or the publicity. If we say, “Well, if that’s not her cup of tea,” then why is it any different for a man to be discerning about a woman?

        Moreover, I was alluding to this a bit earlier: there is a social power-balance: men who are more socially adept, who are more well-heeled, who are more connected, who have more power, who are further along in their career — have more options. Add to that, there’s (generally) more women than men in the church. Single Christian men in the church, who are marriage-minded, even in the 20’s and especially older actually have the balance of power on their side.

        In this analysis, marriage is about a man sharing his power with a woman (and also vice-versa). Men who are more powerful can be more discerning / selective with whom to share their power — in fact, they should be more discerning with whom to share their power.

        I’ll be a bit more blunt. Single men have a lot more power before they get married than after. (I’m not saying that single men should avoid getting married.) Therefore, single men should find a woman worthy of dying for, worthy of laying down that power or worthy of sharing power.

        1. Excellent comment…I’d agree that intercourse should only be reserved for marriage for the important reason of living a chaste life which helps in discerning those who could be your spouse.

          I myself have never had sex outside of marriage so I never understood why I could see the red flags in women a lot more clearly than other men who decided not to. Then I’ve read things about having premarital sex puts the couple into something like a ‘fog’…which is what is meant to happen for a married couple who should have a good idea about who each other is about but really cheapens the relationship if you don’t know the person well.

          I’ll put it this way…by keeping sex out and the physical down, you get to know the woman better and by extention you can get the truth about how they really feel for you out of them quicker. While it has hurt me when I hear the truth…I’d rather hear it before getting married than after. I’ve read too many stories where premarital sex causes emotional confusion in a woman or she stuffs it down that there are many cases she ends up marrying a guy she has no feelings for. That’s a death knell in my opinion.

          1. If women really do think a man should take into account her ‘intrinisic value’…then they should be practicing chastity outside of marriage too. A man can’t really discern that well if she’s putting that fog over him and every man she meets.

            And that’s why we need to point out their disconnect more especially in the pursuit of the bad boy sexual arena. Sure they are aware of the ideal men should have, but they practice things that take men away from that ideal.

          2. I’m just amazed at how much wisdom there is in you guys about how a man should think about marriage! Most people don’t know that chastity is to help you make a stone cold sober assessment of wife candidates so you don’t get into trouble. Everybody thinks that chastity is about mere abstinence but it lets you take into account the full value if the woman without being blinded by appearance alone.

        2. Thank you for this excellent comment which I think presents many of the decision factors that are neglected by many who don’t understand what men are thinking when they think about marriage.

  11. I’m younger but on the same trajectory and will probably look more and more at ex-pat life. Rural Japanese girls raised in a Buddhist home make more virtuous and moral wives then what the modern Church in the West turns out. Girls barely know what and why their believe anything anyways; it would be easier to go from mindful non-Christian to Christian then cultural feminist to housewife.

    1. I don’t mean to rain on your parade, but as someone who speaks Japanese, has lived in Japan, and has many Japanese female friends–this isn’t true. Japan isn’t a religious at all and don’t have any qualms about pre-marital sex. Actually, most of my Japanese female friends don’t understand why I want to wait until marriage. Also, the average Japanese person typically claims Buddhism and Shintoism, but most are really just non-religious. Not to mention, when it comes to marriage in Japan, for the most part fidelity isn’t real. Adultery is common place. A lot of people look at Japan with rose tinted glasses. It’s an awesome country, but they are far from God.

  12. >But when the woman shows up at 35, what is the value proposition to to the man?

    I would go further than WK. I did not need any woman to become successful in my career — all I needed were the skills and abilities God gave me, the fantastic opportunities God gave me, and my own willingness to work hard. No woman needed. And I earned six figures most of the last 20 years.

    So I disagree with (part of) the value that WK assigns a woman.
    The value I see, is in her youth, beauty, fertility and chastity. And a woman of 35 obviously has squandered at least the first 3 of those. No, a woman of 35 is of little value to me as a potential spouse.

    I strove to invest my 20s in my marriage. I did that by training myself, working, and saving. (The fact my marriage never occurred does not negate the investment I choose, through actions, to make.)
    The investment a wise woman will make in her 20s is to give her best years to her husband. Many people think it reasonable to ask the wise, diligent man, who invested his 20s wisely, to marry the woman who squandered her best years. But, as a man who can think and reason, who can weigh cost and benefit, who can weight risk and reward, I have to say that few 35 year old women are worth the cost and risk. She should have entered marriage when she still had something of value, her youth and prime fertility, to offer.

    @Amy Hall

    I notice you do not include the wife actually doing anything. No mention of her being created to be her man’s helpmeet (Genesis 2), no mention of fulfilling his sexual desires (1 Cor 7:1-9). You do mention the popular idea that a woman can train her husband into greater holiness–although passages like 1 Tim 2 and Numbers 30 say the opposite about a woman being more holy/wise than a man.

    @Ani
    > I know plenty of young women who are interested in marriage for gospel reasons and ready to do the hard work involved

    Really? That would be great. Let’s do an objective assessment before I get too excited however. You say you and these other young women are ready to do the hard work. How about the following:
    – Deut 22:5 – you do not wear men’s clothing. So you are careful, at least in church service, to always wear dresses/skirts, or whatever your culture says is women’s clothing.
    – Deut 22 – you have remained a virgin
    – 1 Cor 11:1-16 – you do not cut or shave your hair. Doing so is not only rebellion, but deliberately would remove what the Bible says is your glory (14-16), and you obviously would not want to deprive your husband-to-be of your glory, right? So you either have waist-length hair, or your hair is as long as it can get (it keeps breaking off, but you never cut it); right?
    – 1 Cor 11: you wear a head-covering during church service / praying / prophesying
    – Titus 2:3-5: You are self-controlled (not addicted to food/tobacco/drugs/spending), willing to be busy at home (not a career woman) and accept you are to submit to your husband (not he to you or your feelings/desires)

    If the answers to all the above are true, then you are in the top 1% of “Christian” women. If you are also below the age of 25, you will have no trouble attraction attention from Christian men.

    1. The value I see, is in her youth, beauty, fertility and chastity.

      I’d agree with all of those and add her attitude. Like you said most of those will go away with time…but the disposition of her heart is there regardless of age.

      1. My whole point in this is that if she shows up EARLY when the man is facing challenges like education, early career, finances, “everyone is doing it” sexual culture, then she can help him to achieve a lot more than he can on his own. Men do better in every way when supported by a woman, and the EARLY investment sets him up for later success in life. His health is better, his resume is better, his finances are better, he is more resilient to the fact that other unworthy men are being given sex for no good reason. Fighting through all of that while remaining chaste IS POSSIBLE. I’ve done it. I could have achieved a lot more with that EARLY investment.

        But that requires parents and churches to produce women who are decisive and decisive early on. They must have early resistance to what the culture tells them about feminism, men and marriage. If the woman is just starting to read C.S. Lewis (which is mostly fluff) at age 35, after a long history of debt, drunkenness, promiscuity and bulimia, that’s no good for a wealthy, chaste Christian man who made the right decisions from the beginning. Although it’s fun for pastors to think that the problem is that men need to man up, that’s not the problem. The problem is that pastors are too cowardly to tell women no to their irrational, impractical desires.

        1. I’d agree I’d probably would have got farther with a supportive wife…but I also appreciate how far God has got me to this point.

          I really don’t know how to answer the question on how to convince a woman who is pretty set in wanting to ‘find herself’, ‘doing her own thing’, ‘enjoying being single’, ‘focusing on her career’…that getting married would be benefical for her too. I’m not her father and I’m not her priest. Plus the women who want to get married and understand what it is about I’ve found are few and far between.

          1. I see very little understanding of what marriage is about, and what men and women do in a marriage. While men devour books and studies on marriage and parenting, women read fiction and devotionals. I’ve never seen such a level of ignorance about something that they claim to want to do “some day” (when they feel like it). With zero preparation. If a man intends for his marriage to achieve anything, he can’t pair up with someone who has no idea what marriage is about.

    2. Dale,
      I don’t own a pair of trousers or jeans. My hair is almost waist length, and I always have my head covered in church. At home I cook bake clean grow my own veg etc. My self control has enabled me to own my own house, car, have savings and a plan for retiral at 48. I don’t smoke drink or take drugs. I despise feminism with every ounce of my being.
      I must drop out of the top 1% though because I have a career.
      I have a career because I never married.
      My self esteem isn’t linked to what men think of me, so I have no issue with yours and WK’s statement that I would have little marriage value at my age. I agree. Unless someone wanted me to look after them in their old age and had no desire for a family, there’s little point in marrying me. It doesn’t negate my value as a person, it’s just reality. Thankfully, God gave me enough brains to have the skills and abilities to earn a lot of money and provide for my single life.
      P.S., I’m WK’s best friend and he adores me despite being an old spinster 🙂
      P.P.S., No woman’s hair is going to be her glory if she never cuts it and it’s so long it’s breaking off.

      1. ” I despise feminism with every ounce of my being.” Well you have benefited from feminism otherwise you wouldn’t have a career. Most of society believes in gender equality which is feminism although people claim they are not feminists.
        I knew a woman that was 22 and just finished university and ended with a great new job. She wanted to get married but her boyfriend didn’t so they broke up and she started dating a guy in his 30’s. She told me she wanted a family and it was strange that she wanted it quite bad. I guess she realized time was running out for her. She was a very kind feminine women.

        1. There is a distinction between equality of opportunity feminism, and radical feminism. Equality of opportunity feminism says that women should have equal rights and responsibilities. Responsible people believe in that. Radical feminism asserts the identity of the two sexes, i.e. – that the differences between men and women are social constructs, and that differences between the numbers of men and women in any particular field are due to discrimination. Dina and I oppose that radical feminism. I hope that clears it up.

          In the literature, these are also known as “first wave feminism” and “third wave feminism”. Or “equity feminism” and “gender feminism”.

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