This comment seemed to get a lot of response on Facebook. It’s short, so I am posting it to see if anyone has any opinions about it.
I have been thinking about how people can be raised as Christians and yet become non-Christians. I am beginning to think that the problem is twofold. Early-raised Christians may get the idea from the typical Christian life that Christianity is like what goes on in church. Happiness, singing, families and games, and mostly well-off people dressed in their Sunday best. When they see the suffering and poverty in the real world, they get annoyed with God for not making people happy and healthy and wealthy, and they then turn to government to meet those needs and create happiness and freedom from poverty here on Earth.
I think we need to tell people early on that Christianity is about knowing God and suffering like Jesus suffered. They have to get used to the idea that other people in other religions are not “bad” but they are WRONG and they aren’t doing their homework. (My Hindu friends, for example, take it as a point of pride that they don’t update their religious beliefs for facts, but just believe what is their national and family religion – it’s about nationalism and culture, not truth) And they have to get the idea that Jesus is not championing the elimination of suffering through wealth redistribution, but private charity.
I think this idea that Christianity is about making people feel good and getting along and being liked is pernicious. A relationship with God doesn’t mean projecting YOUR needs onto him, and having a fit if he has different goals and priorities. A relationship with God means caring about what he wants, and suffering with him when things happen that grieve him. I do believe God is sovereign and allows these things to happen.
A previous post from last week had my preliminary thoughts on this, and my friends and I are talking it over. Mariangela has a lot to say about this topic for sure, if she wants to comment.
But not all the news is bad… I was in church on Sunday and I was thinking about this more. Our sermon had a mix of good works and defending God’s existence and character, but it was more the latter than the former. A solid focus on defending God’s reputation and moral standards, and then doing good was mentioned as well at the very end. But this is an exceptional church I was at. They have apologetics book studies featuring Lee Strobel books, and they have hosted Greg Koukl as a speaker. I think in churches where they DON’T have that focus, people will just stop going since they can be good and do nice things without having to go to church.
What do you think?
WINTERY KNIGHT 
“A relationship with God means caring about what he wants, and suffering with him when things happen that grieve him. I do believe God is sovereign and allows these things to happen.” Right on! I totally agree with this statement. People tend to deny the existence of God because there is suffering in the world, and Jesus did not tell us to be happy all the time, but live in joy (which is not the same as happy), accept the suffering, and “take the cross” to follow Him. Suffering is real and should be accepted (as opposed to what Buddhist believe) and we live in a real world that we need to take care of (as opposed to Hindus who think this is all an illusion). Serving others is what God cares about. Good topic.
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There is a vast difference between the Christian religion and being a disciple of Christ.
God has not called us to go out and save people but to be disciples (obey Jesus) and bear witness of God. In order to do that it requires a major transformation of a person.
Man has invented a plan whereby he receives Christ, has his sins forgiven, and then goes to Paradise in the spirit realm. The motive behind the invention is to be able to avoid the painful transition from the bondages of lust and self-will to actual righteousness, holiness, and obedience to God. By inventing a gospel of forgiveness that brings us to Heaven we have managed to avoid a radical change in our personality-a radical change that is necessary if we are to be able to hold Paradise once we gain it.
Here is a example:
The father comes to his prodigal son in the pigsty, runs to him and falls on his neck, kisses him, puts the best robe on him, a ring on his finger and shoes on his feet, kills the fattened calf, and restores the family inheritance to him. The son then arises from among the pigs and returns to his riotous living, knowing his father will never disown him.
It doesn’t work.
The prophet John & Christ talked about the Kingdom of God and not going to heaven ( the scripture is not very clear on what happens after we go to “sleep”).
The apostles message was that of repentance and baptism.
It wasn’t about accepting Jesus in your heart and the four steps of salvation (not scriptural).
The main thrust of the witness of Christ was through His death. This was also seen in the apostles and the church.
The more the disciple denies themselves, carries their cross, and follows Christ. The more of Christ will be seen in the earth.
Currently, the church is accepted in society and centralized to various religions and as a result it is apostate and lukewarm.
As soon as the church becomes “decentralized” as it was in the first century and led by the Holy Spirit instead of. When it becomes weak and dependent God instead of man and money – A true witness of God can be presented. Btw, God doesn’t need money. Consider the apostles poor and uneducated with the exception of Paul (gave it up for the knowledge of Christ) and Judas carried the money bag (that speaks volumes to me).
God can/has accomplish(ed) more with one disciple who will obey Him than 1 million lukewarm believers.
God ALWAYS works with a remnant/firstfruits and not large groups of people – Gideon’s army, Prophets, Davids Mighty Men, 12 Apostles (then there were the 3 etc).
The firstfruits will lead the way for the rest of body.
Btw, many are called, few are chosen (yikes !!!)
In the meantime, what has been presented in the Western Christianity is not discipleship but religion and hence the apostasy.
If Christian discipleship was actually presented as Christ did:
– If you desire to come after me, Deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow me.
– Obey the commandments of Jesus
– Repentance
– Death to the passions, the world, and self will
I think very very few people would sign up due to the all encompassing demands. However, the ones that remain, would be called chosen, and faithful.
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I think the combination of both good works and upholding God’s reputation is key to Christianity. One way Christians miss the point of the Christian life is because they grieve the Holy Spirit. William Lane Craig has a really good sermon on the role of the Holy Spirit in the Christian’s life that he gave in his Defender’s class titled “The Holy Spirit” http://feeds.feedburner.com/DefendersPodcast
You’re spot on when you said “people will just stop going since they can be good and do nice things without having to go to church.” It’s much more than that. The purpose of man is to glorify God and glorifying God is a life modeled after Jesus.
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Of course both of those things are important to Christianity. Obeying commands about marriage roles and more keep outsiders from “maligning the word of God” (Titus 2).
The problem is balance. Too many churches find it easy to focus on good deeds (how many people get persecuted or mocked for that?) and avoid making unpopular claims about Jesus’ exclusivity, about marriage roles, abortion, etc.
These churches work overtime to help people who are on their way to Hell feel a little more comfortable along the way. They are missing the point.
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Is Christianity about doing nice things or upholding God’s reputation?
Neither. Christianity is the declaration of events that have happened and the significance of those events.
At the core of Christianity is—not commands, not good works, not philosophical discussions about origins or causality—but the declaration of a bloody sacrifice wherein God the Father was pleased to crush his only Son, He having obeyed the Father’s law perfectly; the law we have broken and continue to break; thereby appeasing the Father’s wrath and bringing reconciliation between God and wicked, hell-deserving sinners.
Frankly, it grieves me to see so much of the apologetic enterprise consumed with abstract philosophical argumentation and so many sermons filled with moralism. The Gospel ought to be front and center. Too often it’s hidden off in a corner.
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That’s upholding God’s reputation – declaring the truth about his existence and character IS defending his reputation. Telling about him the way he is.
Apologetics is front and center in the Bible. Please read the Bible more carefully. It’s filled with Jesus performing signs, with disciples talking about evidence, etc.
Lots of people who don’t read the Bible oppose apologetics. Atheists do too. In fact, you agree with the atheists that it is a bad idea to emphasize why Christianity is true. And you disagree with the model of the Bible, which is persuasion using evidence.
See here:
https://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2011/06/06/is-the-bibles-definition-of-faith-opposed-to-logic-and-evidence/
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I think that the post on facebook was the beginnings of genius and here’s why:
First thing you’re talking about the groupie mentality, Christians that are happy to be Christians because they belong to a group. Now this description of the church in your post assumes that these Christians are real christians, what conservative christians? I think there is something already fake and lefty about people who need to be in a group that way. Ann Coulter discusses this in her book Demonic. There some people who concern themselves more with the horizontal relationships they have with their fellow man verses the vertical relationship they should be having with Jesus Christ. Ok what I’m saying is Christians that find comfort in being together WITH the body of Christ instead of IN the body of Christ are already on lefty ground. They may or may not have a problem with suffering. Why do I say that, well the Catholic Church is ALL ABOUT suffering. These Christians focus on suffering and then focus on social justice, which doesn’t make anything you said wrong, because it’s in how you define Christianity. You see if leftism is an ideology or a religion than it begins the moment an individuals thoughts shift from God to man. What you keep repeating here is the Christian’s focus on people. They replaced the worship of God to the worship of the poor. This is idolatry, or adultary if we are to be the bride of Christ. Like you said they aren’t focused on Jesus’s suffering, but on man’s. Ok, then you switched topics and started talking about the affect of our witness, when you mention Hindus and you’re saying we label people as bad. This is REALLY important and personally I think this does have a HUGE affect on young people leaving the Church. If your faith is a lefty, groupie, us vs them faith, and all of a sudden you grow up and go out in the real world and realize that not every atheist is a baby killer, it will shake you up and could sever your ties to the church, because really if you don’t need God to be good and if you have no personal relationship with him, than well what do you need Church for? This happens to Catholics all the time. They grow up and stop going to Church because basically being Catholic is all about giving your money to the poor and you don’t really need to come to Church every Sunday for a guilt trip about how you’re supposed to be living under a bridge in solidarity with your poor neighbour. As far as labeling non Christians bad, I have actually talked to my kids about this, and I say the exact thing you said: These people are wrong (my neighbours actually are Hindu!), they’re not bad they just haven’t had access to the truth. Do you know what happens when you tell a 7 year old and a 10 year old that about their neighbour friends? They start evangelizing! I’ve been handing new testaments out at my house! I have my daughter teaching the ten commandments through the back fence like a scene from the boy in the striped pajamas. I have had my son arguing the triune God vs how many Gods the neighbour kid could remember.
But you really hit the nail on the head when you say it’s all about having a relationship with God. As for me and my house I will serve the Lord!
Thank you for posting that,
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WK, I agree with you.
However, there is a vast difference between signs, wonders, healings, and “greater works” vs. imputed righteousness and lawless grace. Imputed righteousness cant be seen, but actual righteousness can.
The world will believe when we are one (and in) with Christ and the Father (John 17:21).
As it stands today- we are not in Christ as Christ is in the Father, and nor we are one. As a result, the world doesn’t believe.
When the disciple lays down his self will and stands for daily crucifixion with Christ (1 Cor 15:53), then Christ can abide in Christ and Christ in us.
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