Two horses fight it out, may the best horse win! A great episode of the Unbelievable podcast. This is a great debate. I really enjoyed it. All three speakers were excellent putting forward their points. It’s nice to hear an American voice, a British voice and an Australian voice debating an important issue. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.
Details :
Wayne Grudem is a theologian known for his conservative approach to both doctrine and economics. His new book “The Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution” (co-authored with economist Barry Asmus) makes the case that pouring aid into developing countries is a failed strategy. Grudem debates whether the Bible supports free market, capitalist economics with Australian economist and theologian Richard Glover who wrote a critique of the book for the Australian Bible Society.
The MP3 file is here .
Summary:
Grudem:
The Bible speaks to all of life, including economics, stewardship, government
The study of economics helps us to understand how to take care of the poor
My job is to apply the teachings of the Bible to all of life
Brierley:
What’s your thesis in the book?
Grudem:
A good system is one where the poor have the opportunity to earn and save from their labor
Book is a response to a Kenyan couple Grudem met at a London conference on business and Christianity
Book is not concerned with how individuals and groups can do charity to help the poor
Our church already does that and we support individuals and groups doing charity
The book is concerned with how should nations be transformed in order to grow economically
What should the laws, policies and cultural beliefs of a nation be in order for it to not be poor?
The book lists factors that have moved nations from poverty to prosperity in different times and places
The thesis of the book is this: government should set their people free to be able to produce more
We advocate freedom in economics: freedom to work, freedom to save, freedom to start businesses
We believe that this free enterprise view is consistent with the Bible in a number of places
E.g. – private property is good for prosperity (thou shall not steal) but forbidden by communism
Brierley:
What about the church sharing in communities in Acts 2 and Acts 4?
Grudem:
That is not redistribution of wealth among individuals and businesses by a secular government
Those passages showed that there was voluntary sharing among Christians, which is not communism
Brierley:
What’s wrong with Grudem’s book?
Glover:
The book emphasizes the Bible and the goal is to help the poor in poor countries
Criticism 1: the book doesn’t engage with non-free-market perspectives on economics
Criticism 2: the book doesn’t survey all that the Bible says about economics
Brierly:
For 1) what is one of the views that is not considered?
Glover:
Jeffrey Sachs says that nations need a leg up before they can grow economically
Ha-Joon Chang says that free enterprise was not how the wealthy nations became wealthy
Grudem:
We do engage with other points of view, especially Jeffrey Sachs in the book
The trouble with leftist views on economic development is that it does not work in practice
NO COUNTRY has even been lifted out of poverty by foreign aid
He says we don’t cite enough from the wisdom literature: we have 64 citations in the index
He says we don’t cite enough from the gospels: we have 42 citations in the index
He says we don’t cite enough from the epistles: we cite 22 of 27 epistles in the index
Some economists won’t criticize cultural and moral values that hurt prosperity
As Christians, we think that moral and cultural values are part of the problem that needs solving
Brierley:
Grudem:
Foreign aid doesn’t help: a lot of the money goes into government and rulers can be corrupt
Instead of encouraging people to start businesses, it tells people to go into government to get aid money
Economists (lists 3) are saying that foreign aid entrenches corrupt government in power, does no good
Brierley:
If it’s not working, should we keep doing it?
Glover:
When there is an immediate need, we should do it, even if it is not a long-term solution: we need both
Brierley:
Should we stop foreign aid completely?
Grudem:
Voluntary charitable giving from individuals and churches to help poor countries is good
Me and my co-author are both active on our church board that helps poor countries with urgent needs
Food and doctors are urgent needs, and we should help, but it doesn’t lift countries out of poverty
We need a long-term solution that helps poor countries produce their own food and doctors
We are criticizing 1) government to government aid and 2) IMF/World bank to government aid
We have had pushback because 500,000 people make a living from this foreign aid industry
No country has ever been lifted out of poverty into sustainable prosperity
That’s the definition of insanity: continuing to do the same thing that has never worked
Brierley:
Does the Bible support free enterprise as a way of creating sustainable prosperity?
Glover:
When I said the Bible was absent from his book, absent was a bad choice of words
But the hundreds of references he listed were not dealth with *in depth*
In the Scriptures, God is the one who provides (e.g. – in Ephesians, Sermon on the Mount)
The Bible is less focused on his people making money, and more focus on sharing basics, like food
Secular governments should just take it from people who have food and give it to hungry people
In 2 Cor 8-9, Paul talks about voluntary sharing so everyone will be equal
Brierley:
Does 2 Cor 8-9 undermine the free enterprise system you champion in the book?
Grudem:
The sharing in the Bible solves cases of urgent need, it does not lift countries from poverty to sustainable prosperity
Some older translations say “equality” in 2 Cor 8:13-14, but newer translations (e.g. – ESV) say “fairness”
The Greek word is translated as “fairly” the only other place it appears in the NT (Col 4:1), in every translation
God uses the means of human work and productivity to provide (daily bread is baked, doesn’t just fall from Heaven)
In general, there’s no provision in Scripture for a person to be dependent on donations for their entire lives
God promises Israel fields and mountains to tend and mine, but prosperity is from work, not depending on others
Brierley:
Does the Bible support this focus on work?
Grudem:
Working is highly praised in Scripture, (lists Bible passages that favor work over dependency)
Countries that were exposed to this notion of work and productivity have been more prosperous
Glover:
Jeffrey Sachs and other development economists don’t say you can be prosperous through dependence
They say that it is a necessary part of leading to nations out of poverty into poverty
Grudem:
It’s never worked. What nation has become prosperous through foreign aid?
Glover:
There are lots of nations, especially in Africa, where foreign aid has helped lift them out of poverty
Grudem:
Name one country in Africa where foreign aud has lifted them out of poverty into sustainable prosperity
Glover:
I can’t think of one right now.
Grudem:
Our book contains a map of Africa and we looked at every nation’s per capita income
No nation has been able to rise out of poverty through dependence on foreign aid
The only close one is Botswana, but they have abundant freedoms, Christian morals, less corrupt government
So Botswana is the best case and they became prosperous through becoming productive, not foreign aid
Brierley:
Is he right to say that charity is a short-term solution, but that it’s not good long-term for prosperity?
Glover:
Yes, and work is a very important focus in the Scriptures as he says.
But since the Fall work has been much harder, and may not have the outcomes that we would like
Grudem:
I also believe in emergency aid for when catastrophies happen, like floods and famines
But dependence on foreign aid enriches corrupt rulers and does not create the productivity that leads to sustained prosperity
Brierley:
Can foreign aid be used to give poor nations a leg up on becoming prosperous?
Grudem:
Dambisa Moyo, Oxford-educated economist from Zambia, says stop the aid, it’s doing more harm than good
Jeffrey Sachs’ view is that foreign aid hasn’t worked yet, but just keep trying a bit more
What works: limited government, rule of law, fair courts, documented property rights, low taxes, stable currency
People are creative and want to work, we just have to get government out of the way and let people work, earn and save
Brierley:
Is this free enterprise system supported by the Bible?
Glover:
The wealthy nations of the world did not become wealthy through productive work and free enterprise policies
Ha-Joon Chang: free enterprise policies have never brought a country from poverty to wealth
E.g. – wealth is created through tariffs (not by innovating and by economic freedom?)
Grudem:
I’ve read Ha-Joon Chang’s book, and his examples are very selective and limited
Index of Economic Freedom: the freest countries are the most prosperous, the least free countries are the most poor
When you look at macro data, instead of very selective examples, the free enterprise system is best for prosperity
Glover:
The book doesn’t do enough to engage with leftist economists (he doesn’t say which ones)
Just because nations who are free are rich, doesn’t mean freedom causes productivity
There are parts of the Bible that doesn’t support the free enterprise system (he names none)
Grudem:
The Bible is focused on work not dependency, and charity not government redistribution
The best way to help the poor in other countries is by encouraging work and productivity
Be effective and influential: Like this: Like Loading...
Two horses fight it out, may the best horse win! A great episode of the Unbelievable podcast. This is a great debate. I really enjoyed it. All three speakers were excellent putting forward their points. It’s nice to hear an American voice, a British voice and an Australian voice debating an important issue. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.
Details :
Wayne Grudem is a theologian known for his conservative approach to both doctrine and economics. His new book “The Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution” (co-authored with economist Barry Asmus) makes the case that pouring aid into developing countries is a failed strategy. Grudem debates whether the Bible supports free market, capitalist economics with Australian economist and theologian Richard Glover who wrote a critique of the book for the Australian Bible Society.
The MP3 file is here .
Summary:
Grudem:
The Bible speaks to all of life, including economics, stewardship, government
The study of economics helps us to understand how to take care of the poor
My job is to apply the teachings of the Bible to all of life
Brierley:
What’s your thesis in the book?
Grudem:
A good system is one where the poor have the opportunity to earn and save from their labor
Book is a response to a Kenyan couple Grudem met at a London conference on business and Christianity
Book is not concerned with how individuals and groups can do charity to help the poor
Our church already does that and we support individuals and groups doing charity
The book is concerned with how should nations be transformed in order to grow economically
What should the laws, policies and cultural beliefs of a nation be in order for it to not be poor?
The book lists factors that have moved nations from poverty to prosperity in different times and places
The thesis of the book is this: government should set their people free to be able to produce more
We advocate freedom in economics: freedom to work, freedom to save, freedom to start businesses
We believe that this free enterprise view is consistent with the Bible in a number of places
E.g. – private property is good for prosperity (thou shall not steal) but forbidden by communism
Brierley:
What about the church sharing in communities in Acts 2 and Acts 4?
Grudem:
That is not redistribution of wealth among individuals and businesses by a secular government
Those passages showed that there was voluntary sharing among Christians, which is not communism
Brierley:
What’s wrong with Grudem’s book?
Glover:
The book emphasizes the Bible and the goal is to help the poor in poor countries
Criticism 1: the book doesn’t engage with non-free-market perspectives on economics
Criticism 2: the book doesn’t survey all that the Bible says about economics
Brierly:
For 1) what is one of the views that is not considered?
Glover:
Jeffrey Sachs says that nations need a leg up before they can grow economically
Ha-Joon Chang says that free enterprise was not how the wealthy nations became wealthy
Grudem:
We do engage with other points of view, especially Jeffrey Sachs in the book
The trouble with leftist views on economic development is that it does not work in practice
NO COUNTRY has even been lifted out of poverty by foreign aid
He says we don’t cite enough from the wisdom literature: we have 64 citations in the index
He says we don’t cite enough from the gospels: we have 42 citations in the index
He says we don’t cite enough from the epistles: we cite 22 of 27 epistles in the index
Some economists won’t criticize cultural and moral values that hurt prosperity
As Christians, we think that moral and cultural values are part of the problem that needs solving
Brierley:
Grudem:
Foreign aid doesn’t help: a lot of the money goes into government and rulers can be corrupt
Instead of encouraging people to start businesses, it tells people to go into government to get aid money
Economists (lists 3) are saying that foreign aid entrenches corrupt government in power, does no good
Brierley:
If it’s not working, should we keep doing it?
Glover:
When there is an immediate need, we should do it, even if it is not a long-term solution: we need both
Brierley:
Should we stop foreign aid completely?
Grudem:
Voluntary charitable giving from individuals and churches to help poor countries is good
Me and my co-author are both active on our church board that helps poor countries with urgent needs
Food and doctors are urgent needs, and we should help, but it doesn’t lift countries out of poverty
We need a long-term solution that helps poor countries produce their own food and doctors
We are criticizing 1) government to government aid and 2) IMF/World bank to government aid
We have had pushback because 500,000 people make a living from this foreign aid industry
No country has ever been lifted out of poverty into sustainable prosperity
That’s the definition of insanity: continuing to do the same thing that has never worked
Brierley:
Does the Bible support free enterprise as a way of creating sustainable prosperity?
Glover:
When I said the Bible was absent from his book, absent was a bad choice of words
But the hundreds of references he listed were not dealth with *in depth*
In the Scriptures, God is the one who provides (e.g. – in Ephesians, Sermon on the Mount)
The Bible is less focused on his people making money, and more focus on sharing basics, like food
Secular governments should just take it from people who have food and give it to hungry people
In 2 Cor 8-9, Paul talks about voluntary sharing so everyone will be equal
Brierley:
Does 2 Cor 8-9 undermine the free enterprise system you champion in the book?
Grudem:
The sharing in the Bible solves cases of urgent need, it does not lift countries from poverty to sustainable prosperity
Some older translations say “equality” in 2 Cor 8:13-14, but newer translations (e.g. – ESV) say “fairness”
The Greek word is translated as “fairly” the only other place it appears in the NT (Col 4:1), in every translation
God uses the means of human work and productivity to provide (daily bread is baked, doesn’t just fall from Heaven)
In general, there’s no provision in Scripture for a person to be dependent on donations for their entire lives
God promises Israel fields and mountains to tend and mine, but prosperity is from work, not depending on others
Brierley:
Does the Bible support this focus on work?
Grudem:
Working is highly praised in Scripture, (lists Bible passages that favor work over dependency)
Countries that were exposed to this notion of work and productivity have been more prosperous
Glover:
Jeffrey Sachs and other development economists don’t say you can be prosperous through dependence
They say that it is a necessary part of leading to nations out of poverty into poverty
Grudem:
It’s never worked. What nation has become prosperous through foreign aid?
Glover:
There are lots of nations, especially in Africa, where foreign aid has helped lift them out of poverty
Grudem:
Name one country in Africa where foreign aud has lifted them out of poverty into sustainable prosperity
Glover:
I can’t think of one right now.
Grudem:
Our book contains a map of Africa and we looked at every nation’s per capita income
No nation has been able to rise out of poverty through dependence on foreign aid
The only close one is Botswana, but they have abundant freedoms, Christian morals, less corrupt government
So Botswana is the best case and they became prosperous through becoming productive, not foreign aid
Brierley:
Is he right to say that charity is a short-term solution, but that it’s not good long-term for prosperity?
Glover:
Yes, and work is a very important focus in the Scriptures as he says.
But since the Fall work has been much harder, and may not have the outcomes that we would like
Grudem:
I also believe in emergency aid for when catastrophies happen, like floods and famines
But dependence on foreign aid enriches corrupt rulers and does not create the productivity that leads to sustained prosperity
Brierley:
Can foreign aid be used to give poor nations a leg up on becoming prosperous?
Grudem:
Dambisa Moyo, Oxford-educated economist from Zambia, says stop the aid, it’s doing more harm than good
Jeffrey Sachs’ view is that foreign aid hasn’t worked yet, but just keep trying a bit more
What works: limited government, rule of law, fair courts, documented property rights, low taxes, stable currency
People are creative and want to work, we just have to get government out of the way and let people work, earn and save
Brierley:
Is this free enterprise system supported by the Bible?
Glover:
The wealthy nations of the world did not become wealthy through productive work and free enterprise policies
Ha-Joon Chang: free enterprise policies have never brought a country from poverty to wealth
E.g. – wealth is created through tariffs (not by innovating and by economic freedom?)
Grudem:
I’ve read Ha-Joon Chang’s book, and his examples are very selective and limited
Index of Economic Freedom: the freest countries are the most prosperous, the least free countries are the most poor
When you look at macro data, instead of very selective examples, the free enterprise system is best for prosperity
Glover:
The book doesn’t do enough to engage with leftist economists (he doesn’t say which ones)
Just because nations who are free are rich, doesn’t mean freedom causes productivity
There are parts of the Bible that doesn’t support the free enterprise system (he names none)
Grudem:
The Bible is focused on work not dependency, and charity not government redistribution
The best way to help the poor in other countries is by encouraging work and productivity
Be effective and influential: Like this: Like Loading...
Two horses fight it out, may the best horse win! A great episode of the Unbelievable podcast. This is a great debate. I really enjoyed it. All three speakers were excellent putting forward their points. It’s nice to hear an American voice, a British voice and an Australian voice debating an important issue. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.
Details :
Wayne Grudem is a theologian known for his conservative approach to both doctrine and economics. His new book “The Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution” (co-authored with economist Barry Asmus) makes the case that pouring aid into developing countries is a failed strategy. Grudem debates whether the Bible supports free market, capitalist economics with Australian economist and theologian Richard Glover who wrote a critique of the book for the Australian Bible Society.
The MP3 file is here .
Summary:
Grudem:
The Bible speaks to all of life, including economics, stewardship, government
The study of economics helps us to understand how to take care of the poor
My job is to apply the teachings of the Bible to all of life
Brierley:
What’s your thesis in the book?
Grudem:
A good system is one where the poor have the opportunity to earn and save from their labor
Book is a response to a Kenyan couple Grudem met at a London conference on business and Christianity
Book is not concerned with how individuals and groups can do charity to help the poor
Our church already does that and we support individuals and groups doing charity
The book is concerned with how should nations be transformed in order to grow economically
What should the laws, policies and cultural beliefs of a nation be in order for it to not be poor?
The book lists factors that have moved nations from poverty to prosperity in different times and places
The thesis of the book is this: government should set their people free to be able to produce more
We advocate freedom in economics: freedom to work, freedom to save, freedom to start businesses
We believe that this free enterprise view is consistent with the Bible in a number of places
E.g. – private property is good for prosperity (thou shall not steal) but forbidden by communism
Brierley:
What about the church sharing in communities in Acts 2 and Acts 4?
Grudem:
That is not redistribution of wealth among individuals and businesses by a secular government
Those passages showed that there was voluntary sharing among Christians, which is not communism
Brierley:
What’s wrong with Grudem’s book?
Glover:
The book emphasizes the Bible and the goal is to help the poor in poor countries
Criticism 1: the book doesn’t engage with non-free-market perspectives on economics
Criticism 2: the book doesn’t survey all that the Bible says about economics
Brierly:
For 1) what is one of the views that is not considered?
Glover:
Jeffrey Sachs says that nations need a leg up before they can grow economically
Ha-Joon Chang says that free enterprise was not how the wealthy nations became wealthy
Grudem:
We do engage with other points of view, especially Jeffrey Sachs in the book
The trouble with leftist views on economic development is that it does not work in practice
NO COUNTRY has even been lifted out of poverty by foreign aid
He says we don’t cite enough from the wisdom literature: we have 64 citations in the index
He says we don’t cite enough from the gospels: we have 42 citations in the index
He says we don’t cite enough from the epistles: we cite 22 of 27 epistles in the index
Some economists won’t criticize cultural and moral values that hurt prosperity
As Christians, we think that moral and cultural values are part of the problem that needs solving
Brierley:
Grudem:
Foreign aid doesn’t help: a lot of the money goes into government and rulers can be corrupt
Instead of encouraging people to start businesses, it tells people to go into government to get aid money
Economists (lists 3) are saying that foreign aid entrenches corrupt government in power, does no good
Brierley:
If it’s not working, should we keep doing it?
Glover:
When there is an immediate need, we should do it, even if it is not a long-term solution: we need both
Brierley:
Should we stop foreign aid completely?
Grudem:
Voluntary charitable giving from individuals and churches to help poor countries is good
Me and my co-author are both active on our church board that helps poor countries with urgent needs
Food and doctors are urgent needs, and we should help, but it doesn’t lift countries out of poverty
We need a long-term solution that helps poor countries produce their own food and doctors
We are criticizing 1) government to government aid and 2) IMF/World bank to government aid
We have had pushback because 500,000 people make a living from this foreign aid industry
No country has ever been lifted out of poverty into sustainable prosperity
That’s the definition of insanity: continuing to do the same thing that has never worked
Brierley:
Does the Bible support free enterprise as a way of creating sustainable prosperity?
Glover:
When I said the Bible was absent from his book, absent was a bad choice of words
But the hundreds of references he listed were not dealth with *in depth*
In the Scriptures, God is the one who provides (e.g. – in Ephesians, Sermon on the Mount)
The Bible is less focused on his people making money, and more focus on sharing basics, like food
Secular governments should just take it from people who have food and give it to hungry people
In 2 Cor 8-9, Paul talks about voluntary sharing so everyone will be equal
Brierley:
Does 2 Cor 8-9 undermine the free enterprise system you champion in the book?
Grudem:
The sharing in the Bible solves cases of urgent need, it does not lift countries from poverty to sustainable prosperity
Some older translations say “equality” in 2 Cor 8:13-14, but newer translations (e.g. – ESV) say “fairness”
The Greek word is translated as “fairly” the only other place it appears in the NT (Col 4:1), in every translation
God uses the means of human work and productivity to provide (daily bread is baked, doesn’t just fall from Heaven)
In general, there’s no provision in Scripture for a person to be dependent on donations for their entire lives
God promises Israel fields and mountains to tend and mine, but prosperity is from work, not depending on others
Brierley:
Does the Bible support this focus on work?
Grudem:
Working is highly praised in Scripture, (lists Bible passages that favor work over dependency)
Countries that were exposed to this notion of work and productivity have been more prosperous
Glover:
Jeffrey Sachs and other development economists don’t say you can be prosperous through dependence
They say that it is a necessary part of leading to nations out of poverty into poverty
Grudem:
It’s never worked. What nation has become prosperous through foreign aid?
Glover:
There are lots of nations, especially in Africa, where foreign aid has helped lift them out of poverty
Grudem:
Name one country in Africa where foreign aud has lifted them out of poverty into sustainable prosperity
Glover:
I can’t think of one right now.
Grudem:
Our book contains a map of Africa and we looked at every nation’s per capita income
No nation has been able to rise out of poverty through dependence on foreign aid
The only close one is Botswana, but they have abundant freedoms, Christian morals, less corrupt government
So Botswana is the best case and they became prosperous through becoming productive, not foreign aid
Brierley:
Is he right to say that charity is a short-term solution, but that it’s not good long-term for prosperity?
Glover:
Yes, and work is a very important focus in the Scriptures as he says.
But since the Fall work has been much harder, and may not have the outcomes that we would like
Grudem:
I also believe in emergency aid for when catastrophies happen, like floods and famines
But dependence on foreign aid enriches corrupt rulers and does not create the productivity that leads to sustained prosperity
Brierley:
Can foreign aid be used to give poor nations a leg up on becoming prosperous?
Grudem:
Dambisa Moyo, Oxford-educated economist from Zambia, says stop the aid, it’s doing more harm than good
Jeffrey Sachs’ view is that foreign aid hasn’t worked yet, but just keep trying a bit more
What works: limited government, rule of law, fair courts, documented property rights, low taxes, stable currency
People are creative and want to work, we just have to get government out of the way and let people work, earn and save
Brierley:
Is this free enterprise system supported by the Bible?
Glover:
The wealthy nations of the world did not become wealthy through productive work and free enterprise policies
Ha-Joon Chang: free enterprise policies have never brought a country from poverty to wealth
E.g. – wealth is created through tariffs (not by innovating and by economic freedom?)
Grudem:
I’ve read Ha-Joon Chang’s book, and his examples are very selective and limited
Index of Economic Freedom: the freest countries are the most prosperous, the least free countries are the most poor
When you look at macro data, instead of very selective examples, the free enterprise system is best for prosperity
Glover:
The book doesn’t do enough to engage with leftist economists (he doesn’t say which ones)
Just because nations who are free are rich, doesn’t mean freedom causes productivity
There are parts of the Bible that doesn’t support the free enterprise system (he names none)
Grudem:
The Bible is focused on work not dependency, and charity not government redistribution
The best way to help the poor in other countries is by encouraging work and productivity
Be effective and influential: Like this: Like Loading...
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WINTERY KNIGHT 