A great episode of the Unbelievable podcast. This is a great debate. I really enjoyed it. All three speakers were excellent putting forward their points. It’s nice to hear an American voice, a British voice and an Australian voice debating an important issue. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED.

Details:

Wayne Grudem is a theologian known for his conservative approach to both doctrine and economics. His new book “The Poverty of Nations: A Sustainable Solution” (co-authored with economist Barry Asmus) makes the case that pouring aid into developing countries is a failed strategy. Grudem debates whether the Bible supports free market, capitalist economics with Australian economist and theologian Richard Glover who wrote a critique of the book for the Australian Bible Society.

 The MP3 file is here.

Summary:

Grudem:

• The Bible speaks to all of life, including economics, stewardship, government
• The study of economics helps us to understand how to take care of the poor
• My job is to apply the teachings of the Bible to all of life

Brierley:

• What’s your thesis in the book?

Grudem:

• A good system is one where the poor have the opportunity to earn and save from their labor
• Book is a response to a Kenyan couple Grudem met at a London conference on business and Christianity
• Book is not concerned with how individuals and groups can do charity to help the poor
• Our church already does that and we support individuals and groups doing charity
• The book is concerned with how should nations be transformed in order to grow economically
• What should the laws, policies and cultural beliefs of a nation be in order for it to not be poor?
• The book lists factors that have moved nations from poverty to prosperity in different times and places
• The thesis of the book is this: government should set their people free to be able to produce more
• We advocate freedom in economics: freedom to work, freedom to save, freedom to start businesses
• We believe that this free enterprise view is consistent with the Bible in a number of places
• E.g. – private property is good for prosperity (thou shall not steal) but forbidden by communism

Brierley:

• What about the church sharing in communities in Acts 2 and Acts 4?

Grudem:

• That is not redistribution of wealth among individuals and businesses by a secular government
• Those passages showed that there was voluntary sharing among Christians, which is not communism

Brierley:

• What’s wrong with Grudem’s book?

Glover:

• The book emphasizes the Bible and the goal is to help the poor in poor countries
• Criticism 1: the book doesn’t engage with non-free-market perspectives on economics
• Criticism 2: the book doesn’t survey all that the Bible says about economics

Brierly:

• For 1) what is one of the views that is not considered?

Glover:

• Jeffrey Sachs says that nations need a leg up before they can grow economically
• Ha-Joon Chang says that free enterprise was not how the wealthy nations became wealthy

Grudem:

• We do engage with other points of view, especially Jeffrey Sachs in the book
• The trouble with leftist views on economic development is that it does not work in practice
• NO COUNTRY has even been lifted out of poverty by foreign aid
• He says we don’t cite enough from the wisdom literature: we have 64 citations in the index
• He says we don’t cite enough from the gospels: we have 42 citations in the index
• He says we don’t cite enough from the epistles: we cite 22 of 27 epistles in the index
• Some economists won’t criticize cultural and moral values that hurt prosperity
• As Christians, we think that moral and cultural values are part of the problem that needs solving

Brierley:

• What about foreign aid?

Grudem:

• Foreign aid doesn’t help: a lot of the money goes into government and rulers can be corrupt
• Instead of encouraging people to start businesses, it tells people to go into government to get aid money
• Economists (lists 3) are saying that foreign aid entrenches corrupt government in power, does no good

Brierley:

• If it’s not working, should we keep doing it?

Glover:

• When there is an immediate need, we should do it, even if it is not a long-term solution: we need both

Brierley:

• Should we stop foreign aid completely?

Grudem:

• Voluntary charitable giving from individuals and churches to help poor countries is good
• Me and my co-author are both active on our church board that helps poor countries with urgent needs
• Food and doctors are urgent needs, and we should help, but it doesn’t lift countries out of poverty
• We need a long-term solution that helps poor countries produce their own food and doctors
• We are criticizing 1) government to government aid and 2) IMF/World bank to government aid
• We have had pushback because 500,000 people make a living from this foreign aid industry
• No country has ever been lifted out of poverty into sustainable prosperity
• That’s the definition of insanity: continuing to do the same thing that has never worked

Brierley:

• Does the Bible support free enterprise as a way of creating sustainable prosperity?

Glover:

• When I said the Bible was absent from his book, absent was a bad choice of words
• But the hundreds of references he listed were not dealth with *in depth*
• In the Scriptures, God is the one who provides (e.g. – in Ephesians, Sermon on the Mount)
• The Bible is less focused on his people making money, and more focus on sharing basics, like food
• Secular governments should just take it from people who have food and give it to hungry people
• In 2 Cor 8-9, Paul talks about voluntary sharing so everyone will be equal

Brierley:

• Does 2 Cor 8-9 undermine the free enterprise system you champion in the book?

Grudem:

• The sharing in the Bible solves cases of urgent need, it does not lift countries from poverty to sustainable prosperity
• Some older translations say “equality” in 2 Cor 8:13-14, but newer translations (e.g. – ESV) say “fairness”
• The Greek word is translated as “fairly” the only other place it appears in the NT (Col 4:1), in every translation
• God uses the means of human work and productivity to provide (daily bread is baked, doesn’t just fall from Heaven)
• In general, there’s no provision in Scripture for a person to be dependent on donations for their entire lives
• God promises Israel fields and mountains to tend and mine, but prosperity is from work, not depending on others

Brierley:

• Does the Bible support this focus on work?

Grudem:

• Working is highly praised in Scripture, (lists Bible passages that favor work over dependency)
• Countries that were exposed to this notion of work and productivity have been more prosperous

Glover:

• Jeffrey Sachs and other development economists don’t say you can be prosperous through dependence
• They say that it is a necessary part of leading to nations out of poverty into poverty

Grudem:

• It’s never worked. What nation has become prosperous through foreign aid?

Glover:

• There are lots of nations, especially in Africa, where foreign aid has helped lift them out of poverty

Grudem:

• Name one country in Africa where foreign aud has lifted them out of poverty into sustainable prosperity

Glover:

• I can’t think of one right now.

Grudem:

• Our book contains a map of Africa and we looked at every nation’s per capita income
• No nation has been able to rise out of poverty through dependence on foreign aid
• The only close one is Botswana, but they have abundant freedoms, Christian morals, less corrupt government
• So Botswana is the best case and they became prosperous through becoming productive, not foreign aid

Brierley:

• Is he right to say that charity is a short-term solution, but that it’s not good long-term for prosperity?

Glover:

• Yes, and work is a very important focus in the Scriptures as he says.
• But since the Fall work has been much harder, and may not have the outcomes that we would like

Grudem:

• I also believe in emergency aid for when catastrophies happen, like floods and famines
• But dependence on foreign aid enriches corrupt rulers and does not create the productivity that leads to sustained prosperity

Brierley:

• Can foreign aid be used to give poor nations a leg up on becoming prosperous?

Grudem:

• Dambisa Moyo, Oxford-educated economist from Zambia, says stop the aid, it’s doing more harm than good
• Jeffrey Sachs’ view is that foreign aid hasn’t worked yet, but just keep trying a bit more
• What works: limited government, rule of law, fair courts, documented property rights, low taxes, stable currency
• People are creative and want to work, we just have to get government out of the way and let people work, earn and save

Brierley:

• Is this free enterprise system supported by the Bible?

Glover:

• The wealthy nations of the world did not become wealthy through productive work and free enterprise policies
• Ha-Joon Chang: free enterprise policies have never brought a country from poverty to wealth
• E.g. – wealth is created through tariffs (not by innovating and by economic freedom?)

Grudem:

• I’ve read Ha-Joon Chang’s book, and his examples are very selective and limited
• Index of Economic Freedom: the freest countries are the most prosperous, the least free countries are the most poor
• When you look at macro data, instead of very selective examples, the free enterprise system is best for prosperity

Glover:

• The book doesn’t do enough to engage with leftist economists (he doesn’t say which ones)
• Just because nations who are free are rich, doesn’t mean freedom causes productivity
• There are parts of the Bible that doesn’t support the free enterprise system (he names none)

Grudem:

• The Bible is focused on work not dependency, and charity not government redistribution
• The best way to help the poor in other countries is by encouraging work and productivity