I got a comment below on the post I wrote about Christian men preferring women with STEM degrees for marriage. I felt that I needed to say something strict about this woman’s comment, because I am seeing her attitude everywhere among Christian women. Although I am more forgiving about her views in private, I think it’s important to be hard on her in public.
Her comment (she’s “thoughtfullady”) is here:
This was an interest post to read. I am a christian woman myself in STEM. I understand the pros and cons, I agree with some of your views and disagree with some others.
In today’s world its hard to sustain a family with only one stream of income, plus, a woman’s life does not revolve around a man anymore, at least in the western and european countries, so if or when I get married, I do not think I would leave my job temporarily ( 3 years or so) or permanently to raise children and attend to my husband all the time, its not financially sustainable in the middle and long term for a household unless the man I marry is earning more than enough for all of us. Yes, I will do my very best to spend good quality time with my family. I believe also that most of the education load should not go into the woman, at least not in modern days, fathers play an equally important role as mothers in their children’s education and science has proved this.Regarding literacy, I liked the comment above relating to how the disciples were fishermen and I agree. Jesus picked some illiterate men to follow him just as the word says in 1 Corinthians 1:28, and I paraphrase, that from the ‘weak, base and despised, God chose people to bring shame to the wise’. The disciples, the educated ones and the not so educated ones, stood up to the Pharisees with knowledge of spiritual revelation not their background careers.
No matter how much worldly preparation you or your spouse have in science, children must be trained in the word of God, remember that most of the ideologies that we have are ‘based in science’ (erratically obviously) but NO matter how much scientific evidence on the knowledge of God we have, these people will not accept it because of their hardened hearts. Instead we’ve got to teach children to stay strong in their faith so they don’t fall into the mainstream movements while standing their ground in their convictions.On the other hand, something that sticks to my mind is how you mentioned that most likely women in STEM would probably not finish college as virgins due to the environment that is found there. I would like to give you some advice in that: virginity is not a virtue in women, nor will make a woman a better or a worse wife, it only shows that either she made the decision/commitment (religion related or not) to remain that way or didn’t have the opportunity to engage in that activity, and yes, it happens. Remember sexual sin is as every other sin that anyone can fall into and forgiveness is available, the Bible puts it in par it with the liars and witchcraft in Revelations. Remember we are in front of a Holy God and even for the little everyday lies that we tell, Jesus had to die on the cross. Something I learned was not to categorise sin because all of them are equal in the eyes of God even if they bring different human or spiritual consequences to us. If you meet a woman who ticks all your wifey prospect boxes that previously felt into that trap and she asked for forgiveness and is walking on a new journey of sanctification, it would be very unwise of you to say no to her just because she didn’t remain a virgin.
Otherwise kudos to you for wanting to have a family that is Christ-centerd, very important specially now in the times we live, drowned in confusion and self absorbency! God bless you!
And here is my harsh response to her.
Thank you for this thoughtful comment, thoughtful lady.
In today’s world its hard to sustain a family with only one stream of income, plus, a woman’s life does not revolve around a man anymore, at least in the western and european countries, so if or when I get married, I do not think I would leave my job temporarily ( 3 years or so) or permanently to raise children and attend to my husband all the time, its not financially sustainable in the middle and long term for a household unless the man I marry is earning more than enough for all of us.
So, the first thing to say is that the reason that it is hard to sustain a family on one income is because we have a massive welfare state that has been put in place to support women making decisions according to the Sexual Revolution worldview, as opposed to the Judeo-Christian worldview. Many of the social programs now in effect, e.g. – taxpayer-funded contraceptives, taxpayer-funded abortions, taxpayer-funded daycare, taxpayer-funded public schools, anti-male divorce courts, taxpayer-funded health care, etc. were put in place in order to make choosing a good man “optional” for a woman. Basically, following the introduction of birth control and abortion, feminists decided to embark on a course of pursuing hot bad boys – even if those hot bad boys would not commit to them before sex. They focused entirely on the man’s appearance, and spurned men with exclusive convictions on religion and morality. These feminists delayed marriage, because they wanted validation from the bad boys. They wanted to pursue careers and buy shiny junk, rather than to build up a husband and produce influential children. That’s why we have a hook-up culture today. Feminists wanted to be free to pursue men based on their appearance, in order to get validation through sex. The welfare state – along with affirmative action, no-fault divorce, etc. – are just what feminists vote for in order to make their plan “work out”.
A good paper on how women’s suffrage led to a massive expansion in government:
Here is a good example of an ex-Christian woman following the sex with bad boys validation plan:
Yes, I will do my very best to spend good quality time with my family.
Well, if a woman outsources the raising of her children to daycares, public schools, etc. then family isn’t a priority for her. And men know that. Men who are interested in having children raised with a Christian worldview will pass career women by, since this is important to us. I’m not interested in what a woman says about things. Her actions tell me what her priorities are. If a woman values career, then secular leftists will be raising her kids. Expressing hopes and desires and wishes won’t save her children from apostasy. I am seeing children getting sexually assaulted, indoctrinated, bullied, transed, etc. in the facilities provided by the secular left welfare state. If a woman goes to work, then she is leaving her kids to that.
I believe also that most of the education load should not go into the woman, at least not in modern days, fathers play an equally important role as mothers in their children’s education and science has proved this.
My job is to earn the money so that my wife can stay home and teach the children. I cannot teach the children while I am working full time. And neither can the woman. What men understand from women who want full-time careers after having children is that the children will be raised by people in daycares and schools who don’t have the worldview of the parents. I’m not marrying anyone to let someone else raise my kids. Raising children is an important part of marriage plan, and I want someone competent to do it. If I could do it, I would. That’s one reason why I need a wife – to do this important job.
No matter how much worldly preparation you or your spouse have in science, children must be trained in the word of God, remember that most of the ideologies that we have are ‘based in science’ (erratically obviously) but NO matter how much scientific evidence on the knowledge of God we have, these people will not accept it because of their hardened hearts.
Today, effective defending of the faith begins with evidence: science and history. The first question that comes up when discussing Christianity with a non-Christian is “how do you know that God even exists?” If the woman’s answer is “the word of God”, just know that this is not going to work on an atheist. There is no word of God without God, and she cannot derive God from appealing to the word of God, since God must exist before communicating through the Bible. I want my children to be the ones who make advances in philosophy, science and history, so people learn from them how to defend God’s existence and character. Illiterate fishermen who saw Jesus were good enough witnesses 2000 years ago. There are no people today who saw Jesus. Illiterate fishermen will not be able to have an influence in the university or the workplace or the public square. When feminists elevate illiterate fishermen over children who are educated and trained in logic and scientific evidence, it just means that her children will have no influence for Christ. And no Christian man takes on the costs and risks of marriage for that outcome. We are interested in serving God, and if we can’t have a marriage and children that serve God effectively, we will settle for less influence for God as single men.
See this recent study:
I would like to give you some advice in that: virginity is not a virtue in women, nor will make a woman a better or a worse wife…
I think most women who accept feminism and the Sexual Revolution denigrate virginity, even though the Bible says that sex before marriage is morally wrong. Christian men infer from this denigration of virginity that the woman doesn’t accept the Bible. We understand that she forms her beliefs about relationships, marriage, and parenting from feelings and peer approval – from the secular left culture. Men understand that she does not read any scientific papers about sex, marriage, parenting and divorce to confirm what the Bible teaches. Men like me know the effect that premarital sex has on the future stability of a marriage. We read books and scientific papers about what children need from mothers and fathers in order to develop properly. And we know how that the instability caused by promiscuity costs us (in divorce courts) and costs the children (effects of divorce on children). It is extremely inadvisable for a Christian man to make a legal commitment of his time and resources to a non-virgin. We have to make sure that our choice of mate is suitable for the plan to make the marriage serve God. It’s called “equal yoking”.
See these recent studies:
- https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-sexual-history-affect-marital-happiness
- http://family-studies.org/counterintuitive-trends-in-the-link-between-premarital-sex-and-marital-stability/
- https://ifstudies.org/blog/slow-but-sure-does-the-timing-of-sex-during-dating-matter/
Remember sexual sin is as every other sin that anyone can fall into and forgiveness is available, the Bible puts it in par it with the liars and witchcraft in Revelations.
Most women today who follow the Sexual Revolution instead of the Bible say that all sins are equal. They say “if God forgives me for this minor, minor sin, then what right does a man have to withhold marriage from me?”. Here is how marriage-minded men like me respond to this. First, most women who ask for forgiveness do it to feel good and to escape judgment by their peers. They don’t believe any harm has been done to the husband, despite the studies falsifying that. There is no genuine forgiveness for someone who thinks they have done nothing wrong. The goal of women mentioning forgiveness is to avoid being judged, and avoid missing out on marriage because men hold them accountable for their past actions. A woman’s past actions define her present character. She cannot make a new character in a split second, without having read anything to change her mind about her past views, and put her new views on display in new actions that honor chastity and marriage. Second, even if she sincerely repents, and God forgives her, that means nothing to a man with respect to marriage. Suppose a woman wastes all of her 20s and 30s partying and having recreational sex with hot, no-commitment bad boys. Suppose she sincerely repents of that, and ask God for forgiveness, and she gets forgiven by him. That does not make her attractive to a man who is looking for a helper to support him in his marriage plan. Marriage plans start at age 20, not age 40. Her repentance at age 40 does not help him in any way, since she was not there during those early years of his life to support him and raise his children and impact the world for Christ. He will also have to deal with the effects of her promiscuity even if God forgives her. The damage from promiscuity can be fixed, but not without a lot of time and effort on books and studies. Time and effort he could be putting into more important Kingdom work. In my experience, most women today have no interest in reforming their minds about their previous mistakes using books and studies. Their idea of forgiveness is just demanding it in order to escape judgment, and to avoid being held accountable for their actions. They hate the idea that they are losing out on something now, because of selfish, irresponsible behavior in the past. That has to be worked through or she’s not safe to marry.
For more on the motivation to call all sins equal:
For more on how men are right to reject non-virgins for marriage:
I hope this comment is helpful for you, and I really hope that the next generation of women rejects feminism, careerism, and sexual promiscuity so that men will be interested in marrying them.
Here’s a good video that is representative of what Christian women are like, these days, when men present them with a marriage plan and expectations about how they should prepare for marriage:
No good man who has a plan for marriage that does damage to secularism, feminism, socialism, etc. is going to marry a woman like this, who just sees relationships as a tool for making herself feel good, and who is entirely beholden to the culture. Men want their marriage and children to count for God. We don’t marry women who are obsessed with feeling good and being liked.
I feel I need to set them straight about their suitability and entitlement with respect to the marriage enterprise, and I hope my reply does that. These women can marry all the weak low-value non-Christian soy boys who will take them. They aren’t ever going to get a serious Christian man to sign them up for marriage.
WINTERY KNIGHT 
“Feminist Christian” is an oxymoron. It’s like saying “Communist Christian” or “Pagan Christian.” I find that most serious feminists who also claim to be Christian are only “Christian” in so far as Christianity is a vehicle to promote feminism and has little to do with being an obedient disciple of Jesus. The true goal is promoting feminism and not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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It’s hilarious because the hardware of the modern Christians woman’s worldview is FEMINISM, then they bolt on Christian language for the sole purpose of having feelings of happiness and comfort. God isn’t doing any leading in their life plans. They’re not thinking “what can I do to help?” They don’t see relationships with men as something to execute under God’s authority. They are looking for the spark, for the tingles, and the man’s job is to be a clown, not a leader. They’re not looking for moral or spiritual leadership for themselves or the children. Children are just accessories, like a handbag or shoes. Give them to the atheists to raise. It’s quite crazy how low the bar is set for Christian women. Christian parents and pastors could not care less what Christian men are looking for in a helper. It’s always horrifying to me to meet a church-raised Christian woman and realize that I – a software engineer – has read more books on marriage, parenting, divorce, etc. than she has. No preparation at all for marriage. They think they are already fully qualified without any preparation at all.
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I hope you don’t mind if I put this here (https://snappertrx.wordpress.com/2018/07/26/virginity-more-that-just-a-pile-of-horse-manure/)
I’m still utterly flabbergasted that churches hold the belief that “sex before marriage” is a thing or that its just another “oops I messed up” thing that can be easily brushed aside with “but I’m forgiven, so forget it”, but why not? I mean, it keeps the church from offending its biggest customer and makes for great movies and books. Hell, the whole country music industry would probably collapse if women stopped singing about the men who schtupped them in junior high or on warm summer nights, not to mention the “born again virgin” brigade. Someone explain how that works!? Actually, don’t, I don’t think my brain could handle the nonsense.
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You have carte blanche to post any links you want here, Snapper.
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I have read that post by you before! It was great.
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I absolutely filtered out “Christian” feminists, although arguably I didn’t find many. And I agree with Theophilus. “Christian” feminism is a thin veneer to advocate feminism.
Look, I come from a long, long line of strong women. My mother graduated top in her high school and finishing school/boarding school and went to one of the top universities in the UK. My maternal grandmother was a university mathematics professor at a time where that was highly unusual (and when she didn’t find many universities that didn’t hire women, she taught math at a school level) … and she graduated from Columbia and Cornell. My aunts and cousins and second-cousins were university-educated and did well. A number of my extended family have degrees including undergraduate ones from institutions that every family would drool over.
My wife is a strong woman, has a STEM undergrad and doctorate, and is a Christian.
There’s a big difference between “strong women who understand differences between men and women” and “is all about GRRL power and advances certain female ’empowerment’ agendas” (careerism, freedom to spread STIs and STDs and treat one’s body as a sewer) and so on.
Christian men and Christian women, when single and when married have to think carefully about how they will fulfill the Creation mandate and the Cultural mandate. God has created work for all us to do and of course, “work” might look different.
Ed Young Jr. used to talk about chores and housework (or even laundry or ironing or oil changes or other maintenance) as no less worthy of being called “work.” It’s just that most people trade time to their employer for money. (More skilled people trade time for higher amounts of money.) You’re still working if you shine up your shoes for work, doing your laundry, performing car maintenance. You’re not paid for this work, but it is still work.
Fathers and mothers must also think carefully about “what they can do that nobody else can do” — for instance, being a father or being a mother, to their children. And that balance is going to different slightly due to the abilities, interests, aptitudes, disposition, jobs/careers, of the father and mother.
My wife is an essential services worker and did take off a few years to be a full-time mother (well, “stay-at-home mother”). She found herself 1) lacking some socializing / social time with adults, especially not talking about baby issues, 2) lacking connecting with adults in her specialization, 3) having a lot of training and lacking an outlet for that.
She tried full-time work for something like 4-6 weeks (which made us all stressed) and then backed off to half-time/part-time.
And yet I can clearly see that the kids need my wife as their mom. Need. Not just want a little. It’s not just about personalities.
We live in a part of the US which is very difficult for most families to have only one income (i.e., only if one is one of those trust fund families and/or the husband has a really good job). And as mentioned before, my wife makes decent money even part-time. (She doesn’t see herself in her particular line of work for a long-time however, but I’m sure we’ll find ways for her to be productive. For instance, I’ve offered to teach her some computer science and the combination of CS + her field is super-niche and pays really well — anything bioinformatics actually, come to think of it.)
Because her job is rather inflexible and I’ve deliberately taken flexible jobs, I have a lot more latitude to deal with emergencies or things that come up. Even before the pandemic: snow day and kids need to stay home? No problem. I’ll work from home.
My wife is a bit more of an introvert than I am — so she needs more alone time/time to decompress. (Did you know that prior to public schooling, like more than 100-200 years ago, it was the primary responsibility of instruction, both Christian doctrine and secular instruction, on the husband and father as the head of the family? As per Richard Baxter’s The Reformed Pastor.)
I do my share in trying to do math and science. (For the record, my wife was at MATHCOUNTS Nationals, so yes, she was one of the top four mathletes in her state. I was AIMEx2 USAMOx1.) We also try to give our kids a variety of experiences in STEM (have membership to our local science museum, are in Destination Imagination) and other things.
We’re not “rich” i.e., upper-class. We earn enough, we’re blessed and we recognize that God has really provided and blessed us. We’re definitely middle-class to upper-middle class for our area. We’ve thought about having my wife do other things — trying to be realistic as opposed to having romanticized notions of what those look like — and then also looking at tradeoffs. During the few years that she was a Stay-At Home Mom, we had to communicate to a number of people we had supported in the past that we would be unable to continue doing so. (Yes, things were pretty tight.)
We’ve weighed trade offs. We have some difficult talks (even one yesterday) about how best to use our money. I’ve made certain trade offs (and arguably ‘sacrifices’) — with which I am happy — like NOT candidating for eldership or not taking certain jobs that take me away from my family.
As to the whole virginity (and let’s expand that to name what that really is: premarital sexual practice):
There’s a line drawn in the sand. To be crass, barring sexual abuse which is something else — it’s not like, oops, Tom fell down and his private part ended up stuck in Barb’s private parts.
There’s an intentionality about premarital sexual activity.
Christians ARE given the Holy Spirit. Self-control is named as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I fully expect that those who profess to be Christians should strive for self-control and the more mature ones should demonstrate self-control.
Sexuality is one of those areas that we prove Lordship — that is, we show our allegiance to God. Or put different, how one conducts one’s life communicates something about priorities and values and virtues and morals. And to be sure: it is a sin to have “sexual relationships with someone not one’s marital partner, one’s spouse, a person of the opposite sex.”
And as with other sins, God can forgive that.
However, if it is a sin: how does one repent?
Hint: Minimizing and rationalizing don’t demonstrate repentance.
In any case: I as other Christian men that I know treat women as dirty laundry if they aren’t virgins. We’re pretty reasonable. We understand people make mistakes. (I even joke around with my wife and mentioned that Singles Ministries are filled with angst and the sexually frustrated — if they are trying to live to please the Lord.)
My male Christian friends were or are willing to accept repentant non-virgins. We were more willing to accept such a background if it happened before she decided to follow the Lord i.e., before her conversion. One of my close Christian friends was more excited about his wife who came from such a dramatic conversion (she woke up naked in a hotel room half-way around the country not remembering how she got there and realized her utter need for Jesus) than over a woman who was culturally Christian.
However, yes, contra Katie E’s video, it is a fair assessment to say:
Men PREFER (emphasis on prefer) debt-free, tattoo-free, Christian virgins as wives as opposed to the alternative(s).
(Note for Katie.: the statement says nothing about the value of men or women … at least in God’s eyes.)
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Chastity is good and virginity is a good baseline standard to have for it. It’s the default that ought to be maintained to indicate self-control. I get so tired of people saying all sin is all the same. It’s not, the Bible shows that in 1 Corinthians 6:18:
“Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.”
And virginity ought to be brought up more just so people will start seeing it’s normal again instead of the never-ending barrage of secular non-standards having little competition.
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Last I checked, Joan of Arc, Harriet Tubman, and Corrie ten Boom weren’t “putting out” before becoming the heroines of the Faith that they are. The most disturbing thing in the comment was that “virginity is not a virtue.” I knew that virginity was a virtue when I was an atheist.
I watched that video and was waiting for the “satire” label on it to come up. It never did. I’m dumbfounded by her position. “Debt free virgin with no tatoos” was a really low bar just 60 years ago. Not so much now, it appears. Just the fact that we even have to ENGAGE in this discussion, as if there are two sides to it in the Christian Faith, is extremely disturbing. I’m certainly glad that I’m much closer to the end of my life than the beginning so that I don’t have to witness what becomes of Western churchianity.
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Remember sexual sin is as every other sin
Um, remember 1 Corinthians 6:18?
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Haha glad to see you made a whole post about my comment and started a conversation! I AM NOT A FEMINIST, never was, never will be!! If you would have a real conversation with me you’d notice, in fact I get criticised about it all the time. The fact that you judged me on 3 or 4 things I do not 100% agree with in your previous says more about your character and entitlement that you carry. I do agree with the vast majority of all the other things that you published in your previous post.
MEN ARE THE HEADS OF HOUSELHOLDS AND FAMILIES, so therefore of society. It was, is and will/should always be this way, it doesn’t mean they are superior to anyone else. I am all in for the traditional and biblical role of men and women, heck yes!! I wish overall society would still be that way but I’d be delusional to think that’s possible again.
I put it into the context that women’s lives do not evolve around men and marriage in today’s society. Historically, after primitive ages, women had to marry for economic protection, keeping family titles or riches, financial sustainment and then reproduction. Today, that’s not the case in the vast majority. Since men have failed inmensely in their role as husbands, to provide and be the heads of families, women have had to step up to keep society functioning. A career focused woman who wants a family is not wrong at all or selfish because ultimately women work for sustaining their homes and their children :).
A career focused woman does not make an absent parent if she finds that work/family/ministry balance. You assume most or all women in STEM spend absolutely all their time in office, you are very wrong I work in STEM, it’s all about finding the balance, there is not a perfect formula on life and family😅.
On another note, both of my parents work full time and they’ve been active in my education.
They have somehow managed to provide and influence greatly in my academics and my spiritual education. I intend to be this way if I ever marry into someone in the same level as me, does not mean I’ll leave my children to be educated by someone else, my spouse and I will have the last word in the end of the day. But if the man I marry can provide for all of us to meet all our needs, I will be way more active in the education of my children not leaving aside any other projects either in ministry or career related. I will do my best in both scenarios.
I never implied sexual sin should be minimised or tried to minimise it, but to maximise it and make it a “greater sin” is unbiblical. The fact that you sin against your body ( hence why it is stated in corinthians to flee from it) doesn’t make let’s say, a liar, less of a sinner than you, or a killer more of a sinner than you, it means you’ll carry different types of consequences and sometimes, they might be greater and to your spiritual detriment! We have to be objective here and not sensationalists or emotional, this took me time to understand. We as humans categorise and judge sins because of their levels of human and spiritual consequences, I used to be that way, and used to fall into legalism and judgement of others with absolutely no right of doing so. But as I mentioned, even if all we did was lie, Jesus still had to die on the cross, in the eyes of God sin is sin. The Lord gives opportunity of repentance in all stances (except on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) and has no conditions ( i.e., there is more forgiveness if you were not a christian And didn’t know or if you were you won’t be forgiven) though the ones who know more, will be demanded more and as a christian if you fall with knowledge of cause, I do believe a bigger lesson is coming your way. Being a christian will not prevent you from sinning, we are still tied to the flesh unfortunately, otherwise things would be so much better haha. On the other hand, you don’t have a say if repentance is genuine or not, fruits will tell and the relationship that person carries with God is personal. Look at King David in the Bible. I believe you got a bit judgemental there.
And I stand on my stance, marrying a christian virgin does not guarantee a successful marriage. Again, being realistic and rational here. A woman’s value as wife and mother does not sustain on virginity, is God given as his creation. I know personally couples close to my family, from church that married virgin and unfortunately divorced because of other many things that didn’t work. If I implied virginity is not a virtue I referred to the above as the value of a woman and and not the the sanctity and importance of it. IT IS important in both men and women. This is not talked about enough in churches today and specially to men, the few times its talked about most of these messages are directed to women. Preserving virginity for the sanctity of marriage is the right way to go and should be the standard in overall society not only in church, the minimisation of this has been dreadful to society. Marriage involves more than that though, in the end of the day, marriage is a daily decision of love and commitment between two sinners who can and will fail at some point, can’t be avoided.
You seem to want women who doesn’t have that kind of “baggage” and I do understand and support your choice! Don’t agree with the subtle minimization of a woman for that though and kind of setting a woman’s married life to fail because of it.
Also I never implied that scientific education is not important in defending the faith, I wrote that Biblical training is way more important now and raising children with that knowledge to stand their ground with conviction when being attacked. In my head it is so obvious that they will be educated in these topics also in a scientific manner in my household, but for me training them to not fall into today’s current is more important. I put the example of the disciples cause they stood up to authorities with conviction and knowledge of the Holy Spirit and some didn’t even have an academic background education. In the times we live in, to my understanding, it is more important to stand ground in faith than trying to explain scientifically and biblically for example, how creation happened to someone who clearly has made a choice on not to believe in God. Been there, done that. And I will say it again, no matter how scientific you get with evidence explaining creation, the fulfilment of prophecies, chemistry, physics…everything that proves the existence of God, to someone who has the same access to that information as you, if the Holy Spirit is not working on that heart, you are wasting your time. It’s alright to talk about it once or even twice but usually you’ll find yourself in a rabbit hole with nonsense questions from someone who has convinced himself deeply that anything God related is silly or non existent.
If I sounded “feminist” that means that something ticked your male superiority that has wrongly been instilled in churches. Yes, men are to rule but also to love, protect and provide not to absorbe, diminish and overrule women. Women are to submit in love, women are not to “prepare for marrying a man in her young ages” more than a man should prepare to marry a woman, that is ridiculous. Many men take the Bible as an excuse to emotionally blackmail their wives or partners on how they should be and act empowering them as “the head of the house”. Be careful with this cause I’ve seen this in church and that is more of a self absorbed man with the excuse of being Biblical.
Tried to keep it short and could’ve said many more things but didn’t want to haha, I’d be feeding a beast. Next time, don’t be too quick in judging someone, especially if you don’t know them personally or their background :)
God bless!
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I’ll just say this as respectfully as possible: you DO come across in some ways as a feminist, or maybe just as a modern woman evolved in a hyper-feminized environment? When you say that men have failed in our leadership roles, I might agree, but maybe not in the ways you might think.
We’ve failed to control the media, schools, and moral landscape. Men voted to legalize abortion, because they submitted to what women have largely become: Jezebels. So, if you are saying that in the same way Adam failed his leadership role by going along with Eve instead of asking God to take that reject back and replace her with a real woman, then I agree.
The modern version of Adam doing the proper thing would be to put all abortion committing women into prison for murdering their children and to take back the vote from women, since without that vote, no Democrat would ever be elected again, and the Democratic Party is openly the Party of Satan. When you say women have had to step up to fill the male void, is that what you mean and is that what women are working towards? Because I don’t actually see that. I see apparently strong women gaining power and then going weak on morality and ultimately Marxist. And the aborigines of Australia would agree with me. I don’t see many women in power pushing for traditional Biblical roles.
Free will cuts both ways. You can have the strongest men around but if women won’t submit to their leadership, that’s not on the man. So, I do agree with you that men have failed, but we’ve done so in the same way that Adam did: by not rejecting ungodly women. I think that WK is merely trying to gain that mantle of manhood back, by asking men to have standards for women and rejecting those who whored around in their 20s and 30s.
I’m a former atheist. I know that God has forgiven me of my awful sins. But I don’t expect to not suffer the consequences of those sins in this life. I think that a woman who slept around but then repented of her sexual sins should expect to suffer the consequences in this lifetime just like I do for my atheist sins. Virginity before marriage is absolutely a virtue, for men and women both, because it’s obedience to God, and such obedience is always a virtue.
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WK,
“Here’s a good video that is representative of what Christian women are like, these days,….”
I know you didn’t mean the video was good (I cringe even seeing her or her mother), so I wish you would reword that to something like “Here’s a video that is a good representative of what ‘Christian’ women are like, these days,….”.
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Ok I’ll fix it!
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I don’t live in a hyper-feminised environment at all or ride that wave. I am Latin American, from a very Catholic and male oriented country. I am literally a woman trying to make it in life walking up the ladder because in the society we live we just don’t find “successful Christian men to marry and start a family”,that is utopic. On the other hand, I don’t feel like I have less opportunities, I don’t feel like I should have any privileges for being a woman or anything like that, I hate victim mentality it is ridiculous, therefore I am not a feminist. I absolutely agree with your second statement, but Eve was not a “reject”, Eve fell into temptation and so did Adam afterwards, that was the free will God gave humans. She could’ve said no, and so could’ve he. That blame game is not worth discussing at this point.
The void is men failing their roles as leaders with discernment, fathers, as faithful sexual and married partners and as key providers, that’s why women have had to step up but have also degraded and become “fiends” or Jezebels as you said as a mirror of their actions. If you look at society, the blame game is played all the time defending men’s immorality as being more animal and women being “whores”. It is socially acceptable for men and not for woman when they’re clearly both wrong. Women have always stepped up for nuclear families, we are more emotional while for men having ‘side chicks’ is even funny. Statistically there are more monoparentals houses led by women as a single parent than men and male abandonment is more frequent than female abandonment in households. But again, playing the blame game is ridiculous and will lead nowhere. Right now, both men and women are ot fulfilling their roles properly.
I agree doing justice regarding abortion, regarding voting absolutely not, because we are not second class citizens. As I said on my comment, men were made to rule, not overrule and women were placed as key players in society to make decisions in their household hence affecting their communities (perfect example, the role of the proverbs 31 woman and Queen Esther). Whether these decisions are good or bad, remember God puts and takes away rulers, so nothing goes unnoticed. A men-only ruled society would have miserably failed, otherwise why create women as idoneous help?
As I also said, I do agree with 95% of what WK published in his post. Yes there should be standards for marriage. I absolutely and undeniably agree, I have my own standards too, never said I didn’t but encapsulating women who “whored around” as not marriage material and doomed to fail is diminishing their value to their bad sexual decisions. That is merely wrong. Not even Jesus did that, remember? “He who has not sinned, let him cast the first stone”…when he told the woman who had had 5 sexual partners “go and sin no more”, He never condemned her and said “you’re doomed, you are a failure as a woman”. Hence why I talked about genuine repentance and reformation, the Lord gives that.
Lastly, yes we will pay for our sins and I never said we would not suffer consequences, I literally emphasised that. On the other hand, virginity is a virtue but not the determinant of a good marriage and as you well said, it is part of obedience. My point was that if for some reason you disobeyed, you will not be screwed up for the rest of your life unless your sin had an exponential consequence (like a life sentence cause you killed someone, and even then, you have forgiveness) especially if you repent and depart (same as you did when you found Jesus and left atheism behind). Under that consequence mentality, we should all be burning in hell already. God’s mercy does not function as ours and He restores us, even uses our mistakes and the problems we put ourselves through, for really big lessons.
If you see, and as I view it from my optic we mostly agree on everything. In my head there was no need to drag me and do a post classifying me as a “Christian feminist”( is that even a thing?), for not ENTIRELY agreeing on 3 out of more than 10 statements that he made. But anyway, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. At least it started an interesting conversation!!
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thoughtfullady,
My initial response to the original post was that you are quite feminist. After reading your replies, I have revised my opinion. I now think you are a well-meaning woman who does not realize how much you have been influenced by feminism. You are not unusual.
“Men failing …, that’s why women have …..” Isn’t this playing the blame game, blaming men to justify women stepping out of their role and also even to sin sexually?
All positions of authority lead to the possibility of misuse, for example, ruling over, when human, selfish desire takes root. But such failure does not remove the authority of the role, nor remove the requirement for the subordinate to accept their place. Consider 1 Peter 3:1 which says “wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word,….” Peter does not tell women it’s okay for them to do as they please even when the husband is disobeying the Word.
Seems quite feminist-influenced. Isn’t the church designed as male-ruled? If male-ruled is destined to fail, why would God have made the church that way?
Marriage with a non-virgin woman is not doomed to fail, but studies show it makes divorce more likely. Jesus also did not tell these women: “You’re now a born-again virgin and there will be no negative consequences to your sexual sin.”.
You seem to think the consequences of premarital sexual sin are likely minimal, even implying they have great value as learning opportunities.
“… especially if you repent and depart …” Do you think repentance for sin is optional?
Yes, God will forgive the truly repentant, but my primary concern is that this attitude of “God will forgive” leads to behavior justification, most especially when it comes to sexual sin because it is so tempting.
It’s an oxymoron but, yes, there are “Christian feminists”, that is, feminists who think they are Christians and think there is Biblical justification for their feminist beliefs. For example, they believe that “the husband is the head of the wife” (1 Cor. 11:3) does not mean the wife is to submit to the husband, but instead is explained by “The husband as head of the wife is a metaphor, not a model for hierarchy in marriage.”
These are some of my responses to your comment. I hope they will be food for thought and might lead you to reconsider some of the positions you have expressed. ’
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