DISCLAIMER: Women are allowed to complain about abuse, addiction, adultery and abandonment to their friends, and they are are justified in doing so. This post is about complaining about picking up socks and not fixing the sink.
According to Ginny at Ruth Blog, it is wrong. And I agree.
Excerpt:
Does this sound familiar? “My husband drives me crazy! How hard can it be to pick up a sock and put it in the laundry? I mean, it’s not like he’s actually busy–he hasn’t fixed the leaky sink that I mentioned two months ago, or mowed the lawn, or cleaned up that mess in the garage. And now that football has started, I never see him…”
I used to join in with this sort of talk. I considered it “casual complaining”–nothing serious, certainly. Sometimes I would even trot out my husband’s faults in an effort to sympathetically let a girlfriend know that her husband isn’t all that bad–all husbands “do stuff like that”. I hoped it would make her see that it really wasn’t worth complaining about. But that probably wasn’t the effect; my “complaining” ended up justifying her complaining.
Then something I heard (on the radio? at a seminar?) made me think about what I was doing to my husband. It was terrible–taking private faults and making them public; taking small lapses and making them seem big; taking a man whom I love and respect, and denigrating him, belittling him. And worst of all, I was doing it where he couldn’t even defend himself. Just terrible.
So I stopped. It wasn’t too hard, if I caught myself starting to talk that way. The problem was that often times I wouldn’t even notice what I was doing until I was already well into it. Now it has been many years, and I believe it has really made a difference. I found that changing my words changed my attitude; changing my attitude changed my actions; changing my actions changed his attitude; changing his attitude changed his actions. Win, win, win!!!
Wow, now that woman will have a husband who will love her to the ends of the Earth. And for good reason!
Here’s an excerpt from Dr. Laura’s book about the care and feeding of husbands:
“A good man is hard to find, not to keep.” That sentence should really make you stop and think. As a radio talk-show host/psychotherapist, I’ve got to tell you how remarkably true and sad it is that so many women struggle to hold on to some jerk, keep giving an abusive or philandering man yet another chance, have unprotected sex with some guy while barely knowing his last name, agree to shack up and risk making babies with some opportunist or loser, all in a pathetic version of a pursuit for love, but will resent the hell out of treating a decent, hardworking, caring husband with the thoughtfulness, attention, respect, and affection he needs to be content.
It boggles my mind.
What further puts me in boggle overdrive is how seemingly oblivious and insensitive many women are to how destructive they are being to their men and consequently to their marriages. Women will call me asking me if it’s alright to go off on extended vacations “without him” when they want some freedom or R&R, or if it’s okay to cut him off from sex because they’re annoyed about something or just too tired from their busy day, or if they really have to make him a dinner when he gets home from work because it’s just too tedious to plan meals, or if it’s okay to keep stuff from him (like family or financial issues) because his input is unnecessary, or if they’re really obligated to spend time with his family (in-laws or stepkids), or if they really have to show interest in his hobbies when they’re bored silly by them, or — well, you get the idea.
I spent the weekend listening to Dr. Laura’s “The Proper Caring and Feeding of Husbands” as well, so I am really positive about women in general right now. This book is the best book for women to read to know how to handle themselves around men. The fact that so many women bought it says a lot about women.
What are my thoughts? I really don’t think that women should say hurtful things about men who love them in public or even in private to other women. Yet so many (all?) of them seem to think that it is normal. But it really hurts men emotionally. Needing approval and encouragement from the woman he loves is the man’s biggest emotional need. I think men do a lot of things to protect, provide and lead that women just don’t appreciate – probably because they don’t understand how a man’s role really is.
I think that there are times when some women have a double-standard that allows them to complain and complain about men, but if they do anything wrong, they just shift the blame to someone else, (i.e. – men), usually by dredging up things that happened sometime around the Hadean era, when the Earth was still cooling. That is really unattractive and something men need to test for during courtship. Men should always ask women for help, always hold them accountable, and always give them responsibilities. See how seriously the woman takes her obligations to other people.
MCSpinster, you are not allowed to comment on this post.
WINTERY KNIGHT 
I agree that this sort of behavior is inappropriate and damaging to a marriage relationship. I would also point out, though the impacts may manifest differently, the same guidelines apply to men talking about their wives as well. In both cases, I think Christians (and others) have become blinded to the significance of this — we’re taking more cues on “appropriate” behavior from sitcoms than we are from the biblical guidelines. My wife and I have discussed this many times, and have both committed to avoid this kind of talk.
LikeLike
Yeah, I would agree that the same is true for the husband, he shouldn’t talk badly about his wife in public either. Further, the same is true for all people (especially Christians) to not gossip/slander others in public or in private. One of the things that turned me off to Christianity, growing up, was that I heard more gossip at Church than I did at school (I was sort of a deist growing up).
Of course, that isn’t true for every church. A church I attended after leaving the gossip church actually practiced Christianity and it was very refreshing to see true Christians. It actually made me believe Christianity could be a livable life.
LikeLike
Yes, it’s very wrong and shows a profound lack of respect for the man.
LikeLike
I think women can definitely complain about certain behaviors and policies in public, but I think that if they love their husbands, they won’t beat him up in front of other people for trivial things like leaving socks on the floor.
LikeLike
LIkewise, it always shows a profound lack of respect for women to constantly complain about certain behaviors in public, as your blog does. If you love God, your neighbor as yourself and your enemy (as Jesus instructed us) then you have a duty to extend that treatment to both sexes.
LikeLike
Your complaints against this blogger are duly noted.
LikeLike
I would be interested to know what those commands from Jesus mean to you, or Wintery, or anyone on this blog. How do you put them into action? No one has explained this yet! Any takers?
LikeLike
McSpinster_ I’ll be your huckleberry :)
– What specifically is your question ?
– Drop me a email @ mykesinger (at) gmail (dot) com
LikeLike
Will do. Thanks, Mike!
LikeLike
It is very wrong to show lack of respect for any human being.
But being honest about what hurts us or what we don’t understand or what we cannot overcome is not showing a profound lack of respect for anyone when approached with a reasonable and humble attitude.
Just tearing another person to shreads by anyone should always be avoided, whether motivate by hate, bitterness, anger, revenge, etc. It shows a lack of love and respect and does not proceed from a heart that knows God.
LikeLike
Wasn’t going to comment. Was going to leave it well enough alone. But there is one thing that bothers me.
No, a woman should not speak bad about her husband publically. A woman’s goal should never be to tear down a man.
However.
If something is really wrong and needs fixing in the relationship, sometimes a woman doesn’t know unless she compares notes with a few trusted friends.
Sometimes a woman doesn’t know if she’s being unreasonable in her expectations or if it’s her husband that is being unreasonable in a certain area. And she’ll never figure it out if she doesn’t have a sounding board, someone to talk it through with.
Yes, she most certainly must be careful who she speaks to. But to demand that she speak to no one, never inquire, never compare notes is wrong. Idealistic and wrong.
Sometimes she’s the one being unreasonable. Sometimes the husband is being unreasonable.
“How are you, Karen?”
“Oh, fine.” The lie.
The truth. “My husband is expecting me to do ________ (fill in the blank) and I can’t seem to do it. And it seems unreasonable and I need help and he’s getting angry telling my I should just be able to. He’s telling me that all normal women are able to do this. What’s my problem?”
The husband may be basing his view on what all normal women can do on something completely unreasonable, base on his own fantasy of what women are than on a reality.
Or, it IS something that she should be able to do but needs a little help from other women…
ETC.
I see what you are saying.
But I have to caution about shutting down women and their need to talk a few things out.
I know my husband gets mad at me and thinks I should be able to do thus and so to make him happy. He’s compared notes with others and found out different.
I’m glad he talk to other people because he wouldn’t listen to me.
LikeLike
Maybe you should talk to him and then have him to the girlfriends about it instead? I don’t know, but Dr. Laura really thinks that just harping about all a man’s deficiencies to other women is poisonous. Maybe there is a way to solve your problem (which is legitimate) without doing the really bad thing. Remember, really bad stuff (addiction, abuse, abandonment, adultery) is all out of scope of these rules, according to Dr. Laura. But she means physical abuse, I think, not like mild disagreement or holding a woman accountable.
LikeLike
I thought this comment was worth repeating here (it’s the first comment under the Ruth Blog post):
“Gossip is women’s pornography.
It promises us instant and false intimacy with our conversational partners.”
I’m convicted.
LikeLike
I actually want to do a post on what is the female equivalent of p0rn0graphy. I actually would have said that celebrities, woman’s shows, and women’s magazines are the equivalent. Gossip seems like a good contender. Hey, you want to write me a guest post on this topic? I’ll use it. Doesn’t have to be long.
LikeLike
The female equivalent of porn is … porn for women. Seriously. It may more likely be racy novels, than something visual, but it’s still porn. I have a non-christian friend who makes a lot of money writing that sort of thing specifically for women. And the visual stuff is on the increase too. Open most women’s magazines these days, and you’ll be shocked. Hey, just look at the things listed on the cover and you’ll see it. It’s the same as any laddish men’s magazine. Television and movies aimed at women are increasingly pornographic. Take Sex and the City as an example. Women have no shame in watching that trash. It’s socially acceptable now. It’s part of the brave new hardline feminist world, where women try to be like men. Don’t get me wrong. Gossip is very bad – especially if it’s denigrating the man one is meant to love and support and build up. But to call it porn for women makes light of the seriousness of real porn and ignores that real porn is a problem for women too. Something like half as many women are addicted to porn as the number of men who are. But that’s still a lot of women! Ignore the problem at your peril. Please use another analogy. Oh and I agree with the main post! Lest you think otherwise… :)
LikeLike
At this point I want to be clear and say that men and women face these problems and I am not minimizing at all how difficult it is to resist any kind of temptation. We all have to struggle through this together. I am not claiming to be perfect, I am not trying to claim that the fault is all on one side or the other. I am just setting out guidelines. I just don’t want to be too hard on anyone at this point. As long as we agree on right and wrong, I don’t want to discourage anyone from their struggles by setting impossible standards. I am just trying to alert people to a concern that I have as a man, not to beat anyone up.
Sigh. I sometimes say mean things about certain women to other people, so I don’t want to be a big hypocrite! Gah! Now I’m feeling really really guilty. I do the very thing that I am condemning!!! Woe is me!!!
LikeLike
Thanks, Wintery. :) I didn’t think you were trying to be mean or discouraging. And it’s good that you alert us to men’s concerns. You do women a favour when you do that. You help us understand men and how we can be supportive of the good ones. The good ones need all the support we can give them in this hostile world. I just get exasperated when I see the pornography analogy, that’s all. I’ve seen it elsewhere in Christian literature. So I wanted to nip it in the bud this time.
LikeLike
Thank you for your honesty and vulnerability, Wintery. This is something we ALL, men and women, need to avoid and root out even the seeds of it in ourselves.
LikeLike
Yes, I agree with you WK. But why is this a ‘Is it wrong for WOMEN….’ post? It is wrong no matter who does that. It’s hurtful for the woman as much as it is for the man. It also leads to emotional infidelity, in some cases, if a woman discusses her husband’s flaws with her male friend and vice versa. So it’s not merely hurtful or disrespectful, it’s detrimental to the relationship.
You know I like your blog, WK. I really do. I do know your intentions, but posts like these need not be gender specific.
LikeLike
This is especially a problem for women, as you’ll learn about when you listen to that thing I sent you on the weekend.
LikeLike
So when my co-worker and friend came to work reeling from the verbal abuse her husband laid out to her for over a week, was it wrong for her to talk to me about it?
She couldn’t talk to her husband. Every time she tried, all she got was repeated “F— you” in her face.
Was she just supposed to paint on a plastic smile, act like everything was okay, and lie as to why she could barely function Monday morning? “Must be coming down with a flu.”
My friend was not dealing with her husband’s addiction, physical abuse, adultery, or abandonment. None of those came into play.
She needed my support.
And I gave it two ways.
1st, I told her how angry it made me that her husband treated her like this and supported her understanding that his behavior was wrong.
2nd, after I dealt with my own anger at his horrible behavior, I pointed out to her what was going on and at a possible direction for her to take.
Her husband is a wounded man, hiding behind the protection of anger. And I recommended a movie that perhaps they could watch.
It’s a children’s movie so I suggested movie night with the grandkids. “Where the Wild Things Are” is specifically about understanding anger and dealing with it.
Yes, I was angry with her husband. I told her, first, that I wanted to beat him with a stick (just and expression folks, I’m not a violent person). But after I dealt with my anger, I wanted to give her possible tools to help her save her marriage, possibly help him recognize what he’s doing, how he’s destroying his relationship with an extraordianry woman.
I was a support to her.
She needed it.
Should women gossip?
No.
But in your fear of gossip and rush to squash it… and in you zeal to protect the egos of fragile men, take care that you don’t rob women of their support system for learning how to live in a world run by men, sometimes angry men who don’t know any better and won’t learn any better without the help of a few sympathetic women (and hopefully men).
FWIW, I want my friend’s marriage to succeed. When her husband isn’t hiding behind his fortress of self-defense, he’s an awesome man. I could go into detail if I already hadn’t written so much.
One thing about women, they often can see the good in other people that men miss. It is both our weakness and strength. It makes us able to believe the best in people in spite of certain bad behaviors. It also makes us more vulnerable and put up with abuses we shouldn’t.
Men have more of a tendancy to see in terms of black and white. If a man verbally abuses his wife to the degree that my friend’s husband did, that man must be bad all the way around.
This simply isn’t true.
Perhaps the reason men fear the gossip of women so bad is that they think that women think like men do, in stark black and white. Maybe if men understood that women can acknowledge bad or undesirable behavior in another without thinking bad about the whole person, gossip wouldn’t be compare to porn. That’s one of the worst comparisons I’ve heard in decades. Just another form of trying to make women’s sins worse than men’s on an overall scale. Pathetic.
LikeLike
Now, don’t beat me with a stick, but do you think that this woman knew about these things before she chose this man? Do you think she chose him for reasons that had nothing to do with whether he would be a good husband, but more whether he was handsome, tall and had a deep voice?
What responsibility do you think she has for these problems? Or do you think she just woke up married one day? Are women entitled to pass on good men, marry bad ones, and then bring the government in “fix” the man afterwards? Do you think that women err by thinking that they can change men after they marry them?
I think when you are in a situation like that, it really is too late. Women have to be better at testing men before they commit to them.
LikeLike
Yeah, because NO man could POSSIBLY conceal aspects of his personality before he gets married. You can TOTALLY tell EXACTLY what someone is like in EVERY way before you marry them. It MUST be the woman’s fault!
Sometimes you scare me, Wintery.
LikeLike
Rrraarrr! I think women should be responsible and not cry victim all the time! I’m scary!
Sometimes women scare me. Not because they are dangerous, because they are, but because they are so totally unaware of the man’s perspective on these issues, and dismissive of judgment and moral obligations.
LikeLike
Well, I think men should be responsible too! And I think there are limitations to what responsible behaviour can cover. Rrraarrr back at ya from Scary Mary!
LikeLike
Yeah, just between you and I, this guy sounds horrible. But don’t tell Mara, I prefer not to make men look bad in public.
LikeLike
And what about men crying victim all the time…? Eh?
LikeLike
Eeek! The lobster is winning! Bad lobster!
LikeLike
I *always* win. Muahahahaha!
LikeLike
Perhaps if you made less of a concerted effort to defend jerks with the flimsiest of excuses just because they’re men, women would be more inclined to listen to your concerns…
LikeLike
I wouldn’t have to defend men if women defended them – I could do what I really want to do, which is criticize them.
LikeLike
Oh I’m not bad. I am a benevolent lobster. I’m Scary Mary, the Tough Love Lobster.
LikeLike
It would help if you restricted your defense of men to the good ones. You might be surprised at how many women might join you in your defense if you did…
LikeLike
You know what WK? I understand you want to see both sides of the issue. But…even when a woman goes through this kind of verbal abuse, you ask what her fault in all of this. Though I don’t think in itself is wrong, it lacks a certain sensitivity. The way you’ve phrased it seems like you think she earned it someway. It doesn’t exactly seem constructive to me.
And don’t ask me to go listen to Dr. Laura’s audio book before commenting. I already am.
LikeLike
Yeah, Dr. Laura is going to turn you into me, so that I can be free to criticize men, and you can beat me up and defend them. And Mary, I’m sending it to you as part of your package as well. I mean the “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands”.
LikeLike
I already defend them most of the time. You still don’t seem to be criticizing jerks!! x( And I really want a “Proper Care and Feeding of Wives”. Dr. Laura says she won’t write it, but do you know some good married guy who could?
LikeLike
Shalini, I like the way you think (again)!
The really funny thing about all of this, WK, is that you’re busy arguing with women who think that women shouldn’t rail on about their men in public for not picking up their socks. Oh the irony…
LikeLike
OK FINE! I admit that Mara is allowed to discuss serious things with her friend when men are really bad!
I was really talking about things like the not picking up their socks.
But I think that if you’re going to criticize men on moral grounds, then don’t mention specific men, just find a piece of research, and criticize some behavior using research.
Wait until you meankeys see my 2 PM post. It’s the best thing I’ve ever posted. I’m trying to find Mary to proof-read it, but she isn’t answering! Does anyone want to proof-read this thing for me?
LikeLike
Thanks, Mara. You make a really good point. Emotional abuse is real. Not refusing to pick up his socks, but REAL emotional abuse, like swearing at his wife and speaking to her like she’s nothing.
LikeLike
For you, Wintery.
LikeLike
OK OK! I admit it! You are absolutely right and I am wrong! I added a disclaimer to the post making clear that this doesn’t apply to Dr. Laura’s 4 As for bad husbands!
LikeLike
Me like new disclaimer. ;-D
LikeLike
Haha! I love this post, Mara! Rex Harrison is my favourite Prof Higgins though.
Starts singing “Just you wait, ‘Enry ‘Iggins! Just you wait!” :D
LikeLike
“You’ll be sorry but your tears will be to laayte.”
I thought that was Rex Harrison.
Disclaimer-good
gossip – bad
Support systems among women – vital to their survival and mental health.
LikeLike
Oh you’re right. It *is* Rex Harrison. I didn’t actually fire up the video. I realize now that the image I’m seeing is of Wilfrid Hyde-White as Colonel Pickering. It confused me. :-P
LikeLike
Is there a “Proper Care and Feeding of Wives” we should know about (or similar book for future husbands who want to learn more about how to serve their wives the way Christ did the church)?
LikeLike
I agree that it is not right to ridicule or disrespect your husband/partner in front of others whether he is present or not. It only ends up embarrassing both of you in the end. I do feel that explaining situations and asking for advice in that arena ia a good thing. I kept too much of my feelings inside with my ex-husband that if I had just talked to him about it or talked to someone and asked them what I should do, maybe he wouldn’t be my ex-husband. After we were divorced, I asked him why he always put me down. Both in private and in front of others. Even when I had done something good, he always told me how it could have been done better in what I refer to as his “nice way”. Meaning, he smiled and even chortled a little as he told me things like that was good, but if you had done it this way, it would have been better. He also in his nice way again pointed out my faults. So when I asked him why he did that, he said I thought it would make you try harder. I thought I was encouraging you to be the best you could be. He was shocked when I told him all it did was hurt my feelings and make me cry myself to sleep many nights. So talking about things that your partner does that upset you in the right way, I think is the best way to keep a happy, healthy marriage. I only wish I had taken my own advice before it was too late and I be came an ex-wife instead of a wife.
LikeLike
I can tell you that gossip on either side is wrong and it is very hurtful to the relationship. As soon as disdain comes out – it will follow with actions toward that other person ( it is IMPOSSIBLE to speak negatively about someone and then be nice to them – it doesnt work.
Real intimacy is the ability to be truthful with the other person – when a woman complains about her husband (it is felt despite others say- a Spirit filled / emotional IQ person can feel when others my significant other rails me – I can). Most women would be devastated if their man spoke ill of her to his guys friends ( the problem is two fold :
1. only hearing one side of story
2. other person now has a “bias” toward the partner that was spoken against (this is a hard one to overcome).
If there are ANY REAL PROBLEMS IN A RELATIONSHIP THEN THAT SHOULD BE ADDRESSED BY A NEUTRAL THIRD PARTY (ie professional) this needs to be agreed to before consummation. Hence it is really important to have these things in place BEFORE marriage.
Btw, Noelle post was very important. That was the story of my ex-wife and myself. While I was honest with her (gentle, caring) all it did was hurt her feelings. After 3 different marriage therapists she discovered that my honesty was intended to help her and the relationship and were very good suggestions (she was shocked) Regardless – she ended up a ex-wife also.
Real intimacy can only take place between 2 people. With that being said, whoever you are the most honest with- is the person you are the most intimate with.
LikeLike
I can’t tell you how many women I know who have asked their husbands if they could please go see a counselor and the husband flat out refused.
LikeLike
I agree that seeing a marriage counselor is usually a good thing, assuming that the marriage counselor has values that are based upon the Bible.
For women, I’d also recommend reading the book, “What’s it Like to be Married to Me?” by Linda Dillow. Here is the link on Amazon:
Far too often, women go running to their friends to complain about every little thing they dislike about their husbands (this is profoundly disrespectful, btw), when many times it would be helpful if they just took a nice long look in the mirror and started working on their own flaws.
LikeLike
I’m getting tired of men assuming that “far too often, women go running to their friends to complain about every little thing they dislike about their husbands.”
Taking this attitude about all women is also profoundly disrespectful besides being freaking dismissive.
Far too often, men don’t take their women seriously and want to sweep things under the rug rather than deal with it.
Then women are told, don’t talk to anyone about it unless your husband agrees to it.
And if the husband refuses to agree with it?
Oh well, sweetie. Too bad God made you a woman who has to submit to a man. Stinks to be you. Just keep stuffing it until you have a break down or get committed or have to go on drugs in order to deal with the stress. I hear anti-depressents have come a long way. Try some of those.
WG. I believe in common decency. I believe in both men and women being loving and respectful towards each other. And I believe in both men and women working on themselves in order to get along with their partners. But do you have any idea how many more books there are written for women rather than men. It’s not because women have more problems than men. It’s because women are far more likely to buy and read books and listen to advice to help their marriages than what men are.
I don’t agree with men making all these rules that leave women no options and that’s what I see going on here.
“It’s quite simple, sweetie, just do this and don’t do that and it will all work out. Oh, it’s not working out? Well then YOU must be doing something wrong, little girl. Surely it’s not your husband. Go back and try again, but whatever you do, don’t break our rules.”
Simplistic, Cliched Christinity like that doesn’t work.
Getting to the bottom of the issues is what works and that’s what a woman needs to do. If it’s her, fine. She can work on that. I don’t have a problem with that. A counselor might really help her there to sort it out to see if the issues are mostly or partly hers. But if it’s her husband who has the issues, guess what? She STILL needs to get to the bottom of it with or without his help. And she doesn’t need other men telling her she’s being a gossip and disrespectful. Sometimes the most respectful thing a woman can do is force her husband’s hand to get help when he needs it, because most likely if what he is doing is hurting her, it will hurt his children and strain his relationship with them as well.
I don’t say this lightly or flippantly and in the same manner you accuse most all women of running to their friends over trivial issues. I say it in an “I care about all marriages”, including the troubled ones where the men are not abusive in their hearts but have picked up some bad habits/behaviors or have mild disorders** that need attention. A gal reading a book all about what’s wrong with women isn’t going to solve these things. Objective problem solving that isn’t undermined by accusations of “gossip” and “disrespect” will get her much farther that stuffing it because of fear of offending fragile male egos.
(** Disorders such as Bi-Polar, ADHD, Aspergers, just to name a few, exist and hurt marriages far more that what people want to face. Sprinkling Christian pixie dust on them and demanding adherance to faulty formulas helps no one. Nor does sweeping comments about what most women do or don’t do.)
LikeLike
Btw, in review of Mara’s post (the emotional abuse) – a couple of things come to mind.
– what was the situation ? why was he responding to her like that ? how does she respond to him ? (it is very likely that the abuse language might be common to both sides)
-prayer is needed
-professional intervention is needed
-accountable family members and friends to get involved
-is there anything illegal or immoral or harmful to the children….
I think you get the picture – there is much more involved than it appears to be and BOTH sides need to heard ( I really suggest professional help first to contain the situation and then family/close friends ONLY IF NEEDED.
LikeLike
I think the difference between the way men see some of this and the way women see it is funny.
Now I never talk badly about my husband, because he’s basically perfect. For everyone else in the world, though…
Yes, it’s critical not to gossip about your spouse (or really anyone else). However, occasionally women (and SOME men) need to get someone else’s opinion on an interpersonal matter. There are a few rules of thumb that can help keep things in check: (1) negative talk shouldn’t be out of anger, annoyance, ridicule, or chattiness. (2) it should only be done after serious reflection – do I really need advice on this or can I figure it out with prayer and thought and talk with the husband/wife? (3) is the person I’m talking with the appropriate audience? I think 98% of negative talk about spouses would fail one or more of these tests. Sometimes, though, a wife might need another person’s perspective on something husband-related. That’s just how our brains work.
Some husbands could probably stand to go get some wise advice on occasion, too. ;)
LikeLike
I do agree with “accountability partners” that are agreed on, however, it should be at full discretion with the partner…
There should be “NOTHING” that cant be discussed between two partners. Involving a 3rd party should be a mutual decision not withstanding a illegal/immoral situation.
LikeLike
After reading Mara’s posts – which I’m sorry to say I didn’t read before my last post – I completely agree that there is a huge difference between simply complaining because your partner leaves their socks on the floor or the toilet seat up and real physical or emotional abuse. That by all means in my book should be talked about. I would recommend going to a therapist, counselor or a unbiased professional, but if you don’t feel comfortable with that or don’t have the time or money to do so, then you need to talk about it if for nothing else than your own piece of mind. A best friend can be comforting and maybe give you some good advice. Just be careful who pick to discuss this with confiding in the wrong person can sometimes only make matters worse. Above all, no one should have to put up with abuse of any kind. In a perfect world, you should be able to covey how you feel to your partner that the abuse has to stop. It’s been my experience, however, that the abuser usally doesn’t see or believe that they are actually hurting anyone. And even if they do, they think they don’t need anyone’s help, that they can change all on their own. That is almost never the case.
I also don’t agree that people always know what their spouse is capable of before they marry or commit to them. A relationship is a constantly changing thing. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for worse. My husband changed a lot after we were married. Some people are good at hiding things until you live with them, then their secrets are harder to keep. I think that once they realize that you know their secrets and you’re still there, that that gives them the right to up the anti and treat you in the way that they have been hiding from you in the past for fear you would leave. It’s a lot easier to walk out on someone you’re not married to. Especially, if there are no children involved. I was married to an abusive man and the abuse only started after we got married. I told my one sister about it and she told me to keep it to myself. That unless I was planning on leaving him – and I wasn’t at that point – you two can kiss and make up, but once you let your family and friends know, they are less likely to forgive. The only problem with that was that since I never told anyone until I was ready to leave him, no one believed me because I got just as good at keeping his secrets from others as he was.
Please, let me reiterate that, that is only for cases of abuse not simply for annoying little habits like “not picking up their socks off the floor”. Complaining to friends and family about things like that isn’t going to change the situation. It’s only going to cause arguements and change nothing.
LikeLike
At the risk of sounding biased – one of the “MAIN” problems of talking about a woman to a girlfriend is there is quite often a lack of objectivity (ie the girlfriend/sister will be supportive and quite often (99% of the time ) will validate a one side story (BIAS) vs. being objective and asking the hard questions (insightful man point of view). I have seen quite often two women validate a situation based on emotions and a very small portion vs. taking into account ALL the factors ( ie, complain about husband not doing “something” while the truth is he cant take on any more due to a gross inbalance). Quite often the big picture and all the details are over looked due to the emotional crisis given while ignoring “why/ how” it happened in the first place.
Further, as you mentioned – “you two can kiss and make up, but once you let your family and friends know, they are less likely to forgive”.
LikeLike
What’s troubling to me is that often when you try to educate women on all these quirky things they do, they often assert that the sexes are identical and that male needs and concerns are dispensable. I’m actually used to it, it happens to me so often. My concerns and needs are often discounted, even when I’ve studied the issues with real research and books. I just file the person in the “DO NOT MARRY” file.
My friend’s wife (the environmental scientist) is the polar opposite of this, and listens to everything, reads books on everything, and changes her mind. She is even curious about things that bad women do like getting really fat after marriage/pregnancy and withholding sex and forbidding firearms in the house. I can get her to read Dr. Laura Schlessinger and Jennifer Roback Morse and John Lott and Thomas Sowell and Frank Gaffney, and all her views change like magic. I think it’s because she takes the Bible seriously, so men have a lot of leverage to try to take a truth-centered approach when persuading her. If we can argue our case, she’ll listen. It’s just amazing.
LikeLike
Getting a woman to admit there is a double standard is highly unlikely – I have only ran across two American women in my life that recognizes it and will admit to it (( I have this discussion up front and see how a women reacts to it). Quite often the behavior standard they expect is higher than what is given.
This a IMHO observation – women that have a good example of a loving father/mother (healthy marriage) upbringing and good relationship with their father have no problems accepting men and can want a man with good values and character.
However, when the opposite happens ( broken marriage & bad relationship with the father). The women dont trust men and have serious relationship issues (unrealistic and often abusive).
I wonder why ????? It is because thats what they experienced at home and hence their incredulous behavior and expectations towards men ( Current Hollyweird views and Feminism doesnt help).
In the case of your friend – there are some serious trust issues. Quite often truth can be presented by two different presenters and only believed because the credentials vs. the ability to think for themselves. In other words they put so much into “the messenger” or “the marketing method” vs. “the message/what is being said”. While credibility does help believability, it doesn’t mean one still cant be wrong.
Btw, one of the best relationship books I have read to date is “Human Intimacy” by Victor Brown.
LikeLike
The feminist double-standard is actually an entire chapter in “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands”.
LikeLike
I am getting that book !!!!
Many Thanks Wintery Knight !!!
LikeLike
This comment is to Mike Singer though I agree with you that gossip isn’t good for a relationship what my husband did with his comments was just cruel. He would call me fat, unkempt, stupid and other hateful things with a smile on his face like that made it okay. His comments weren’t really meant to help me. Just make him happy.
I was 5 foot 4 and 110 pounds I was in no way fat. He just expected perfection. I think you misinterpreted my meaning. I meant if I had just told him his comments weren’t helpful but down right cruel, he may have seen my point and stopped, but now I will never know.
And as for your comment about comming from a good home with a loving mother and father I
did. The best. I have 8 brothers and sisters and my parents loved each other for 52 years until my father died. My mom is finding it hard to go on without him and I understand. I wanted so badly what they had and I thought I found it, but I was so very, very wrong. And it had nothing to do with picking his socks up off the floor because he always did. It was real mental and physical abuse and I kept my mouth shut for years and let it go on. I blame myself I should have put a stop to it, but I didn’t. I
had never come across this type of situation so
I didn’t know what to do. Until I finally said I couldn’t take it anymore my parents never had that problem my mother and father communicated and loved each other and had 9 children together. I just assumed everyone was like that and maybe if I hadn’t, I could have saved my marriaqe or at least gotten out sooner.
If you have never been in a situation of abuse before, you don’t know how to handle it. It numbs you and you think you can change them. My problem is I gave up, and just ran scared sometimes I think it was the best thing I ever did sometimes the worst. It’s a question I will be asking myself for the rest of my life. It’s been 10 years and I’m still alone, so I don’t know what to think anymore. Not that men aren’t interested I’m just too scared to try again.
Maybe someday. I don’t know.
LikeLike
To Mara, I believe you. My husband went to one counseling session, didn’t like what the counselor had to say and that was that. I find a lot of men don’t want to talk about their marital problems with strangers.
(especially ones that don’t agree that they are completely right and their wife is just crazy) lol
LikeLike
If you read Dr. Laura books, she explains that most marriage counselors are feminists and recommends caution in choosing a fair counselor.
LikeLike
Not the Christian ones.
They are the opposite
LikeLike
I am not sure what to think about you any more after you thumped me on that Jewish thing. I don’t think it’s safe to disagree with you in writing. I’ll just secretly disagree!
LikeLike
Why do all of you seem to assume that a “therapist” is always going to be right?
Why don’t you give your husband the benefit of the doubt instead of an outsider?
Do any of you bother to find out about the worldview of a therapist before you open your lives to him?
LikeLike
This is why it is important for men to give women about a dozen books during courtship and force them to write about it, and to crusade for men’s rights and children’s rights. If the women is on the political left, she should be immediately disqualified from consideration for marriage. I also think that as a minimum she should show some evidence of getting along with men she is not interested in romantically – young men, older men, etc. And she should have a good relationship with her father and brothers, if possible. Even if they are bad, she should try to be reconciled with them, if possible. And when women are choosing men, they should have their daughters in mind, and choose a husband who is going to be a good father – moral, involved and a good provider and protector.
LikeLike
“crusade for men’s rights and children’s rights”
What about the women who are being trafficked? Should women ignore the cries of trafficked women and crusade only for men and their own children who are not being trafficked?
Who are the most oppressed people in the world and even our country? It’s not men, as you suppose.
I agree with staying away from political left. they are no help to men, children or trafficked women. But your comment makes me think that women should not stand up for themselves or their sisters who are being abused by big crime and ignored by everybody else.
LikeLike
No, no. We don’t disagree at all! You’re right. And sorry about the tone. I get infuriated about Christian women voting for policies that undermine marriage and parenting. It makes me very upset and I take a very hard line. I want Christian women to understand that conservative politics, like yours, are a requirement for marriage. Just so everyone knows, you are also into apologetics and interested in raising your own children. I think that’s what men should look for. If men want good children, they should look for women with Mara’s views of politics, Mara’s views of apologetics, and Mara’s views on parenting.
LikeLike
You know, Wintery, I don’t always know what to do with you when you roll over on your back and expose your belly.
I guess you know me well enough. I won’t attack and will just roll over and expose mine and we can look up into the sky enjoy the vastness of the cosmos that our God has created.
LikeLike
Well, I can’t fight with you when you use evidence. It confuses me! I worry that I am wrong.
But I’m going to be pretty mean soon in a mean post to some of the third-wave feminists so…. don’t read that post. It’s coming out Monday afternoon/evening.
LikeLike
You men assume the man is right.
What’s the difference?
LikeLike
Trafficked? How did we go from wives talking their husbands to trafficked women?
LikeLike
I’m sorry. It’s just when I see “crusade for men’s and children’s rights” with no mention of women’s rights my mind works like this.
If men need someone to crusade for their rights, then they must, indeed, be oppressed. But reality tells me that men are not the most oppressed and that there should be crusades for those who have no voice and cannot speak for themselves. Men simply don’t fall in that catagory, no matter how you slice it. They do have a voice to complain when laws are made that are unfair.
Plus I was reading a blog from a survivor of trafficking and she said things like, “It’s hard to heal and move one when a.) the men who abused you continue to abuse other women with impunity, and b.) It’s hard to heal and move on when society won’t even acknowledge you and what you’ve been through but wants to pretend that it either wasn’t allthat bad or you somehow wanted it and brought it on yourself or utlimately deserved it.
Again. Sorry. I knew I could bring it up here because I know Wintery is as horrified by it as I am and that it might bring a few thing into perspective, like what true oppression looks like and what people ought to be crusading for.
LikeLike
Because if a husband expresses any duty or moral obligation for his wife, then he is treating her as chattel and trafficking in women. You insensitive sexist man-beast.
LikeLike
Hi, came across this site and wanted to offer my two cents… I think as women we often process information differently than men, and talking to our close friends helps us to find solutions. A lot of time what men might see as complaining is actually a way to release tension and to perhaps think through a problem. The key though is to do this with women who are not anti-men or anti-marriage.
Sometimes when I’ve complained about something my husband has done, my women friends agree that he is being unreasonable, but far more often they tell me I’m taking things too seriously or not seeing his perspective OR they are neutral about it and help me find a good compromise.
In other words, if you talk about the issues in your marriage indiscriminately to anyone, that is probably bashing your husband. But if you talk about these issues with a few close friends who want the best for you, including a healthy, strong marriage that lasts, then it’s a very different thing.
As an example, my close Christian friends will pray with me for guidance. We’ll pray for my husband and our marriage to be blessed despite any issues we are having. But venting with them has helped me to then confront my husband when necessary and also to change my own behavior when that is what is required. Because my friends and my Mom WILL tell me when they think _I_ am the one who is being unreasonable.
LikeLike