Why “a woman’s right to choose” causes men to refuse to marry

Unborn baby concerned about not having a father

I found this post on RuthBlog, which discusses an article from the centrist Manhattan Institute on artificial insemination and single motherhood. It’s by Kay Hymowitz, who I agree with on many things, but not everything. This article was fairly good and it forms a good platform for me to make some comments below on the notion of “a woman’s right to choose”.

What are feminist scholars writing about artificial insemination?

Kay writes:

AI’s potential for deconstructing the family has not been lost on radical feminists. In Baby Steps: How Lesbian Alternative Insemination Is Changing the World, Amy Agigian, a sociology professor at Suffolk University in Boston, observes: “Lesbian appropriation of medical technology (AI) that was intended to shore up nuclear families” has “radically challenge[d] the power structure, assumptions, and presumed ‘naturalness’ of major social institutions.” AI promotes a “postmodern family form that emphasizes affinity over biology and (patri)lineage.” For thinkers like Agigian, one of AI’s greatest benefits is that it dethrones what Canadian feminist Kathryn Pauly Morgan calls PIVMO (penis in vagina with male orgasm). Postmodern anthropologists studying reproduction technology—and there are enough of them to be producing a steady stream of volumes with titles like Conceiving the New World Order—have joined in, arguing that the whole idea of kinship based on sexual procreation is a Western construct, happily on its way out.

Highly credentialed mainstream experts are also taking a take-’em-or-leave-’em approach to dads. There was Louise Silverstein and Carl Auerbach’s infamous “Deconstructing the Essential Father,” a 1999 American Psychologist article arguing that “neoconservative social scientists” who cautioned against the fatherless family simply wanted to uphold “male power and privilege.” More recently, Peggy Drexler, an assistant professor at Weill Medical College of Cornell University and a board member of New York University’s Child Study Center, has made a similar case in Raising Boys Without Men: How Maverick Moms Are Creating the Next Generation of Exceptional Men. Drexler announces that she herself is raising two children with her husband of 30-plus years, but one has to wonder whether her book isn’t a silent cry for help. Her index under “fathers” includes: “absent, after divorce,” “destructive qualities of,” “spending limited time with children.” “In our society, often we idealize and elevate the role of father in a boy’s life without giving credence to the fact that actual fathers can be destructive and a boy may be better off without his father,” she informs us. In Drexler’s view (spoiler alert for Mr. Drexler), dadless boys are actually better, more sensitive and more “exceptional.”

Keep in mind that research like this is taxpayer-funded – aspiring fathers who are busy working and saving for families they will struggle to support are paying the salaries and scholarships of these feminist scholars. And the research of these feminist scholars becomes the basis of policies like the one being pushed by Sue Leather in the UK, to provide taxpayer-funded artificial insemination to any woman who wants to have a child.

But what do ordinary women think of artificial insemination?

Kay explains:

More ordinary “choice mothers,” as many single women using AI now call themselves, are usually not openly hostile to fathers, but they boast a language of female empowerment that implicitly trivializes men’s roles in children’s lives. The term “choice mothers” frames AI as a matter of women’s reproductive rights. Only the woman’s decision making—or intention—carries moral weight. Similarly, advocates often cite the benefits of single motherhood’s freedom from “donor interference.” “Single moms avoid the need to discuss and negotiate around key parenting issues,” one Toronto social worker told iParenting Media. “She can shape a child in her own unique vision.”

And in the same choice-trumps-everything spirit, choice mothers emphasize that they choose their kids. All the planning and deliberation that they’ve got to go through to have children, they suggest, might make them better parents than those who just “breed.” Their kids are “wanted children,” observes sociologist Judith Stacey. The implication that sexual intercourse brings forth hordes of unwanted, unloved children, while AI produces a chosen elite, sometimes hangs in the air.

As you know we have tons of statistics showing that children raised without a father suffer enormously. But now some people seem to be saying that a woman has a right to choose to have a baby who will grow up without a father.

Well, what is a woman’s right to choose, really? It seems to be used in a lot of scenarios. It’s a woman’s right to choose to kill an unborn child, which has happened over 40 million times in the United States so far. It’s also a woman’s right to choose to destroy her child’s future by depriving that child of a father. It’s a woman’s right to choose to have drunken hook-up pre-marital sex with scores of promiscuous alpha males who have no ability or willingness to be husbands or fathers. It’s a woman’s right to choose to unilaterally divorce a man she freely committed to love for life, so she can steal his house and much of his future income. It’s a woman’s right to choose to work full-time and to abandon her children to day care and schools that discriminate against boys. It’s a woman’s right to choose to have sex with a man (or several men), then to accuse him (or them) of rape because she doesn’t want her reputation ruined. It’s a woman’s right to put on weight after marriage, and then to have her husband arrested for “verbal abuse” when he asks her to slim down. And so on.

That article caused me to think a lot about that phrase “a woman’s right to choose”. And it seems to me that there is a common core to the examples of a woman’s right to choose that I listed above. What the phrase really means is that a woman has a right to choose to selfishly pursue her own happiness regardless of the effects on the people who love her and depend on her. It also means that a woman should never be judged or held accountable for the destruction she causes. And it also means she can offload the financial costs of her own choices onto taxpayers who have no choice but to pay for the damage she causes. And it also means she can blame men for all of the obvious and predictable consequences of her own selfish and irrational behavior.

And how do men respond to this? Well, men know that marriage requires both partners to love each other and the children unselfishly. Men know that marriage is about two people growing to be less selfish and less irresponsible. And so women who believe in “a woman’s right to choose” are not qualified to marry or raise children. And this is why men do not commit to marriage any more. We would like to marry, and raise children. But we can’t find anyone suitable for marriage. And even if we found a decent unmarried woman from the 23% who did not vote for Obama, there is the feminist state – courts, schools, etc. – to contend with, which is firmly committed to “a woman’s right to choose”. The government has enormous power to regulate men, marriage and parenting – so there is really no hope at all. Men will have to wait until women come to their senses and stop voting to replace men with the government.

UPDATE: The public-funding of invitro fertilization is happening faster than I thought, at least in the UK. Check out this article from the UK Daily Mail. (H/T Secondhand Smoke via Head Noises)

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197 thoughts on “Why “a woman’s right to choose” causes men to refuse to marry”

  1. “women who believe in “a woman’s right to choose” are not qualified to marry or raise children”

    A big hearty AMEN to that. I have a friend at work who says he likes “strong women” whenever we talk about feminists and I try to point out that feminists are not “strong women” but anti-male and anti-family. The real “strong women” are the ones like my wife who decide to take on the job of motherhood that is not only not glamorous (no board meetings to dominate) but actively scorned by “liberated women”.


    1. I feel really really bad about how women who choose to stay home and raise children well are demonized by the feminist majority. Not just with taxes and discriminatory policies like nationalized day care, etc. I have a friend whose wife has multiple engineering degrees and she reads all kinds of books on marriage and parenting like “Sacred Marriage” and “Bringing Up Boys”, and he reads them too. And you should see how well their children are turning out. It’s amazing. She is an amazing wife and mother, and he kills himself trying to making her happy, because it’s fun to make a woman like that happy. I don’t think that a woman can get that kind of devotion from a man through sex. She has to make decisions to be unselfish that make her lovable. And most women today are not willing to do what works.


      1. Wintery, you have it wrong. Feminism fought for a woman’s right to choose her occupation, whether it’s stay at home mom, or office worker, cowgirl or scientist. Of course, not working isn’t much of an option for many families: they need two incomes and sometimes, the wife’s is the only income. But instead of blaming all the things you don’t like on feminism, please try and sound somewhat knowledgeable on this subject. Feminism brought women choices, the right to make choices, just as men have always had. And let’s separate work choices from choices over whether or not to bear a child. I don’t wish to get into that one.

        Also, you always forget to thank Corporate America for the restrictive policies for families. You credit feminism for this, but feminists don’t run corporations. (the percentage of women who lead companies is negligible, probably under 2%). Further, it’s not like women choose to spend so much time at work. Most, if not all would like to have a balance, as would more men, I’m guessing. More generous family leave policies are endemic in industries that employ more women, btw (like publishing) although they are not nearly generous enough.

        You are so willful in your ignorance here. What gives? How does this serve your cause of marrying one day?


        1. I notice that in all of these posts, that I am the only one continuously citing feminist scholars, as well as surveys and voting records of women in general, to support my view. What gives is the truth. This is how it really happened.


          1. What’s your source for “women who choose to stay home and raise children are demonized by the feminist majority”? You say you’re referring to scholars, but you don’t name any. And “scholars” isn’t a majority but a subset—a very small one at that.

            Can you define your terms? I’d actually be interested to know, given that stay at home moms were who feminists originally fought for. Not too long ago, they didn’t have many rights. Now they do. Thank you, feminist majority, a group to which most women are indebted and with whom they identify on many issues, though certainly, not all.

            Kind of like freedom of speech. We all support it until someone says something we don’t like. But you don’t remove freedom of speech because of it.


          2. Men don’t often cite studies, research, and surveys because we don’t need them to stage a marriage strike. All we have to do is decide we no longer need you.

            So go ahead and regurgitate all the studies and research you like. We don’t care or need it.


          3. Ben, I am a man, and I support the marriage strike. The studies and research are in opposition to same-sex marriage. Not only that, but I am also chaste since I believe I have to have all my wits about me to be able to avoid women who are not ready for marriage. I have a huge set of tests and criteria that I use to test women to see if they are ready for marriage, with the goal being to make sure that she has the knowledge and skills to perform her role as wife and mother. I don’t let bad women hurt me because I don’t let them use their physical charms against me.


          4. Ben: “Men don’t often cite studies, research, and surveys because we don’t need them to stage a marriage strike. All we have to do is decide we no longer need you.”

            If that’s what you feel like you need to do in order to protect yourself, have at it.

            Women have been having to do things to protect themselves for years. They’ve had to learn where not to go after dark, how to hide money in order to escape an abusive marriage, where the safe places are when they are being threatened, how to go get an order of protection against men who threaten their lives. etc. (not that orders of protections actually work. If an angry man is determined to shoot a woman down, an order of protection is not going to stop him.)

            And you know, some of those women finally decided they didn’t need men either. They decided because they either dealt with men like this or watched their friends and relatives deal with men like this. And instead of ever hoping to find a decent man in all the world, they just gave up. What’s it to me if they cut off their noses to spite their faces?

            So I guess it’s fair for you to do the same.

            If you think that’s your only protection then strike away.

            What’s it to me if you cut off your nose to spite your face.


          5. Mara I completely agree with you. Men should study the facts and evidence and stats, understand the laws and then prepare to investigate women during the courtship. After all, any car or job can be a lemon, but I am not going to swear off of cars and jobs! I just think I need to be very careful. VERY VERY CAREFUL. I think marrying Mara would be a good decision!


  2. You know, of course, WK, that it’s really a two-way street. This is confirmed by your own friends of whom you just spoke. But it’s a two-way street going the other direction as well. There are a lot of jerks out there of both sexes. Feminism has just insured that between the two sexes, it’s a bit more equal as to how many jerks there are.

    But I’m beginning to feel that you are looking for reasons to avoid marriage. You post these as excuses for why men don’t want to marry. There’ve been excuses for thousands of years. These are just new ones.

    But the dynamics of finding a good wife have never changed. Meet as many hot babes as you can and take your time to get to know them. Be bold and let them know as soon as circumstances dictate what your morals are and stick to them.

    I have done this with some women I’ve dated and it worked out well in those cases. That is, I was really glad I didn’t have sex with them first. But though I didn’t hold to that with the woman who eventually became my wife, I did take time to learn who she really was. We just celebrated twenty years. One of the first things I learned was that though she was self-assured, strong, independent, she wasn’t a looney feminist.

    More importantly, as far as this post goes, we need as many good, solid traditional families to help debunk the bunk these feminist idiots are spewing and, unfortunately, trying to teach young girls. Each such example stands as proof that their agenda is the flippin’ lie that it is.

    Also, posts like this, and the response you provided must continue as well. We just let them talk on as if they hold the truth. They can’t be allowed to proceed unchallenged any more than the other “progressive” liars out there.


  3. Great article! All this makes me SO ANGRY!

    And then that article from the Daily Mail – scrapping the age limit for IVF to avoid age discrimination! What the…? Even though from the article ‘Children born to women over the age of 40 are at greater risk of abnormalities, while the mothers are more likely to die in childbirth.’ Where’s the common sense?

    I love the picture of the fetus by the way!


      1. You need to go and read those studies, instead of parroting something you heard on Good Morning America–by any reasonable reading there are so many variables involved that it is, at best, a weak correlative effect, with way, way too much ‘noise’ to take seroiusly.

        (And, even in the worst case, by these questionable methods, it’s about a 1% increase in risk.)


      2. Make sure there’s an age limit on donor sperm!

        In fact, just get rid of artifical semination completely!


  4. The risks faced by the children of older fathers are similar to those faced by the children of older mothers. But while we all know about the risks of Down syndrome in older mothers, most of us are ignorant of the risks in the children of older fathers. Here are some links, most of which examine the high incidence of schizophrenia, Downs Syndrome, and lower IQ among children of older fathers–and that is directly attributable to the father (and not the mother’s) age. That doesn’t mean I’m favoring one side or the other in this debate. But as usual on WIntery’s site, he examines female culpability and doesn’t look at the other side. This might prove emotionally satisfying for those feeling aggrieved, but it is not good science.



  5. Pah-LEASE. Men are bigger supporters of abortion than women are. If the world suddenly turned on it’s head & left was right & right was left with men finding themselves pregnant, you’d see abortion clinics spring up like Taco Bells. Men are not the keepers of humanity. That unfortunate burden has fallen on women. Many are choosing to go it alone rather than raise an adult male child along with their own offspring.


    1. Hey, Lilith. I’m using this Gallup 2009 poll for my assertion that men are pro-life than women. It says that men are 54% pro-life, 39% pro-abortion. And it also says that women are 49% pro-life and 44% pro-abortion. Do you have a different survey that refutes my Gallup survey? You didn’t cite one in your comment.

      Women are far more willing than men to kill their own children in order to avoid being inconvenienced by the consequences of their own free decisions.

      Furthermore, I don’t find your argument from imagination convincing since it’s just a hypothetical. Do you have any evidence to convince me? There was no evidence in your comment, just unsubstantiated assertions and insults.

      Also, you should know that single motherhood by choice is child abuse. When a woman chooses to raise a child without a father, she is basically exposing that child to a host of dangers and setbacks, not to mention the social costs due to things like increased crime.


      You can click through to this link for three four dozen independent research studies showing the effects of raising children without fathers.

      Here are a few:

      Almost 75% of American children living in single-parent families will experience poverty before they turn 11 years old. Only 20% of children in two-parent families will do the same. Source: National Commission on Children. Just the Facts: A Summary of Recent information on America’s Children and their Families. Washington, DC, 1993. Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census.Statistical Abstract of the United States 1994. Washington, DC: GPO 1994.

      70% of juveniles in state reform institutions grew up in single- or no-parent situations. Source: Alan Beck et al., Survey of Youth in Custody, 1987, US Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1988.

      Fatherless children are at a dramatically greater risk of drug and alcohol abuse, mental illness, suicide, poor educational performance, teen pregnancy, and criminality. Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics, Survey on Child Health, Washington, DC, 1993.

      Children in single-parent families are two to three times as likely as children in two-parent families to have emotional and behavioral problems. Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. National Center for Health Statistics.”National Health Interview Survey.” Hyattsville, MD, 1988.

      Fatherless children are twice as likely to drop out of school. Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. National Center for Health Statistics. Survey on Child Health. Washington, DC; GPO, 1993.

      I chose the US Government studies, especially from the Clinton era, but there are several dozen peer-reviewed research publications cited as well.


    2. Why is being the “keeper of humanity” an unfortunate burden? Women used to be celebrated because of our ability to bear children. (I have no citation handy…it’s just in the general mish-mash of ‘stuff I’ve heard somewhere’…but I’m pretty sure it’s true).

      I tend to agree that there are a higher number of adult boys (a book called Manning Up, I think). But I think this comes from an educational system that promotes ‘typical’ female learning methods. This leaves young men fresh out of school wondering what their place is, perhaps thinking, “Women can do everything without me…so I might as well play a lot of video games. I am rambling. Pardon.


  6. Wintery: “Women are far more willing than men to kill their own children in order to avoid being inconvenienced by the consequences of their own free decisions.”

    You are completely missing something in this statement.

    Men don’t have to deal with the consequences of their own free decisions in reproduction to the degree that woman have, outside of marriage. Not physically, not emotionally, and until only reacently, not financially.

    The financially is catching up with these men. Many of them still go scot free because the moms, realizing their foolishness of the moment (because they bought into our stupid, ‘if it feels good do it’ culture), don’t want to deal with the child’s father for life so she says things like, ‘your not the kid’s dad’, just to not deal with him. (Who really wants Casanova to be a part of a child’s life. He’ll just teach Jr to be another Casanova. Think about this a second before you judge me on this one.)

    So it’s easy for men to be pro-life. They don’t have to carry the child. And the ones who start off being responsible but decide it was more trouble that it’s worth, they can start treating the child’s mom poorly so that she will leave on her own account. Problem solved. He no longer has to deal with being tied down, even if he’s still financially tied.

    (Kudos to all dads who do remain a part of their child’s life. Wintery’s words of telling moms they are committing child abuse are far too inflamatory and ill-informed to do anyone any real good. But at the same time, I must agree, whenever it is possible, it’s always better to have a father and a mother. AND it’s BEST to get yourself away from the ‘if it feels good’ culture as possible. It is destroying families.)


    1. Mara,

      In review of your posting – may I point out some highlights so that I may suggest a often overlooked honorable solution that is grossly overlooked ?

      Before I do so, allow me to highlight some points you mentioned in your post:

      – “Men dont deal with the physical / emotional consequences ” of reproduction ?
      – don’t want to deal with the child’s father for life
      – it’s always better to have a father and a mother
      – Who really wants Casanova to be a part of a child’s life ? AND it’s BEST – to get yourself away from the ‘if it feels good’ culture as possible

      Allow me to point out the a honorable solution to a very terrible mistake that will hopefully cure the woman of the “if it feels good culture” since the only person one can change is themself – no one else.

      WHAT ABOUT ADOPTION ????????

      – Dont have to deal with Cassanova ( Think about it – really )
      – Deal with the emotional, spiritual, financial obligations in a honorable manner vs. the taking of a human life
      – Child goes to a qualified Father and Mother (OMG !!!!!!!!!!!!!)
      – The emotional /physical impact is different. I think one can look back and know “one blew it but did their best given the situation”

      I would speculate the typical answer would be “it would be painful to give up the child after carrying it”.

      Well I would hope so – if that is the case – then lesson learned ( I wonder if one would think twice before running after Mr. Cassanonva AGAIN). I would speculate “yes” (optimist here).

      The observed problem with abortion is the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, time etc…..By dismissing / removing the consequences – the problem is perpetuated ( Read Theodore Dalrymple “Life at the Bottom” which is quite colorful and deals with the problem ( sin and self blindness/ self denial).
      With that being said – why adoption isnt in the public eye/media should raise a concerned eyebrow. The lack of attention ASTOUNDS me. It is making the best of bad situation and life giving all the way around.


      1. Mike, I agree with your suggestion that adoption is the best way to deal with an unplanned pregnancy (except for prevention of course). It’s choosing life instead of death. Adoption is also a wonderful way in which Christians can show the love of God and become a picture of His adoptive redemption of us.

        I think Mara would actually agree with you. I think her main “beef” with WK is his emphasis on women as the chief culprits in this. However, for each child that is conceived, a man was involved. One would think that would be obvious, but it is easily overlooked. Men who have hook-up sex with women are putting the child they might conceive at risk of abortion, so they bear some of the guilt too.

        Also, don’t forget that MOST abortions are coerced – i.e. most women who have them don’t want them. The biological father of the child is often one of the perpetrators of this coercion.
        See http://theunchoice.com/coerced.htm for details.
        I’m not saying that men are always to blame for abortion, but this idea that men are never to blame or even rarely to blame is simply untrue. I’m all for voting pro-life, but voting records don’t give the whole picture.


        1. May I take this a step further and ask the obvious question ?

          Why is all the attention on abortion (death) and why not adoption (life). In other words – remove Christianity from it. It is not just a Christian thing – it is a moral/ social issue (Christians should not be having pre-marital sex so this should not even be a issue with Christians). Catch my drift ? Somehow adoption as a option isn’t offered / seen as a viable option due the ” tramatic” emotional experience of attachement / separation that happens with the mother (I am not aware of the statistics but from my understanding, the mother favors keeping the child).

          Why is that ? Please offer insight since I am curious.

          In the meantime, may I speculate ?

          Chances are TRUTH SETS IN – THERE IS A LIVING BEING THAT IS GROWING INSIDE OF ANOTHER PERSON THAT HAS A BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT ( The only thing “we” can truly create is another human).

          I sincerely hope that adoption can be brought forth in the public eye. I sincerely speculate the reason why there are incurable diseases is a baby that was suppose to be born was aborted (REALLY THINK ABOUT THIS ONE _ IT IS QUITE PROFOUND) and it would also reduce further incidences of this occurring again


          In regards to assigning more blame due to coercement to men or women really depends on the situation. “My experience and observation” has lead me to women being the active pursuer of sexual intercourse the “majority of the time”. While intercourse is a shared interaction of 2 willing parties – initiation and failure to prepare leads me to assign great responsibility to that party whether male or female.


          1. Mike, I agree wholeheartedly with your advocacy of adoption. :)

            My reason for bringing up Christianity is that Christians have a particular reason to become adoptive parents, over and above the good reasons for Christians and non-christians alike to demonstrate love by adopting.

            I agree with your statement that it depends on the situation as to where the blame resides. That said, the statistics show that men are usually the initiators and active pursuers of extramarital sex. I understand that your personal experience may differ.


        2. Mary: “I think Mara would actually agree with you. I think her main “beef” with WK is his emphasis on women as the chief culprits in this.”

          Thank you Mary. I saw that you said this yesterday but was busy with other issues here and appreciate you letting Mike into my beliefs on abortion.

          I’m staunchly prolife. At one time I trained to work in a Crisis Pregnancy Center (though I never actually worked in one, my church pioneered several back in the 80s). I’ve gone to Pro-life Sunday events in our capitol rotunda (sp?). My parents recently picketed an abortion clinic and they are board members for a ministry house that helps pregnant women who want to keep their babies in the face of abandonment by families/boyfriends. My pro-life credentials run deep.

          But being pro-life is not just about the baby. There are two lives involved. And one downfall of the prolife movement is the fact that they trample over the mother’s basic needs in order to save the baby. The pro-life movement needs to offer better options than, “Don’t kill your baby. Be fed and comforted.”

          That’s why I love the work my parents are doing with the ministry house. Too many pro-lifers want to demand that a woman not terminate but are unavailable when the woman is left on the streets and can hardly feed herself, let alone the baby. “You made your bed, sweetie, now suffer alone.”

          The solution is not, “Don’t kill the baby.”

          The solution is, “Don’t make the baby in the first place,” which is nearly an impossible message to preach in a society that looks upon sex as the inalienable right of every man, woman, and (getting to be) child.

          Adoption is okay, but it really is an emotionally traumatizing separating and cutting off for any mother. And I’m speaking as a mother. It’s better to not make the baby in the first place.

          And this starts with men getting it out of their heads that the pursuit of happiness involves unlimited access to sex, sex, sex, and girls, girls, girls.

          As long as there is money to be made by exploiting women, there will be an abortion problem.


          1. On the pro-life issue, you must be the only other pro-lifer who agrees with me that the solution is to stop having sex before marriage. You pointed out the man’s responsibility, and I just want to emphasize that women need to not need attention from men so much that they are willing to give up sex for and risk killing an innocent baby. So where do fathers come from? I think women, when they are choosing men, need to choose men who will be good fathers. And they need to make the decision with a rigorous, rational, strict, moral engineering process – a process that involves their parents and his parents. Women need to recognize that when it comes to choosing men, they are basically irrational and emotional. That’s why they need to appeal to grown-ups and a strict methodology – formal courting. Either that or you end up with dead babies. You can’t make the decisions the way women do and expect the man to stick around. The 180-second rule in which the woman assesses the man’s ability to be a husband and father by looking at his shoes and hair is not going to work.

            Not trying to be mean, but this is a very very sore spot for me. Try to be forgiving with me – this is something that is the center of my disatisfaction with women, so be patient.


          2. Thanks, Mara. I strongly agree with you. I just read this FaceBook update from Randy Alcorn: “In surveys of women who experienced postabortion complications, over 80% said it was very unlikely they would have aborted if they had not been so strongly encouraged to abort by others. 83% said they would have carried to term if they had received support from boyfriends, families, or other important people. Every woman deserves better than abortion. Let’s ask ourselves, how can we support these women in need?” We need to go beyond just telling women not to abort (although we should do that and I’m the one at church who usually raises pro-life issues and tries to help people see the humanity of the pre-born) to also helping and supporting those who find themselves in this position so that they don’t feel so desperate.

            I also agree with you that avoiding premarital sex is the best way to prevent abortion. (That’s what I said to Mike above.) Adoption is the next best scenario.

            WK: I agree with your criteria for a good husband. Just please don’t say that women are “irrational”. Yeah, nitpicking again, you may say. :-P But if you tell women they are inherently irrational, then it’s like telling men they’re inherently immature little boys. They’ll use it as an excuse to hide behind and live up to your low expectations of them. Besides, some men I know can be very irrational and emotional too.


        1. McSpinster,

          Are they are a Christian/Disciple of Christ ? If yes, then what does the scripture say ?

          “If any man/woman desires to be my disciple, let him deny himself, pick up his cross, and follow Me”

          Imo, the cross is the ultimate death machine for self will and “feel good” culture. However, I dont expect the secular world to run after this, but it is par for the course for committed Christians.


          1. Hmmm. I was really asking you whether you believe men need to be cured of the “if it feels good culture,” since when you talk about this, you specifically mention women. This would lead the reader to believe that you are singling women out and giving men a pass. Are you intentionally singling women and giving men a pass? A simple “yes” or “no” will do.


  7. Well “WinteryKnight” (snort), I’ve never been surveyed by Gallup nor has anyone I’ve met or known. I ask on a regular basis because people frequently cite polls as fact in their blogging and I sure as hell have never been polled. What I can only offer you is personal experience.

    I live in the south with some of the highest abortion and divorce rates in the bible belt. Of my grown friends that I’ve know of who’ve confided in having abortions, all but one said they consulted their partner or husband prior to it and had their 100% support. Most couldn’t afford another child when birth control failed or when they forgot to use it. They other was in an abusive marriage and when she found out she was pregnant, she didn’t want any reason for him to “have” to be in her life. Understanding since he’s a violent kook.

    My 15 year old nephew knocked up his girlfriend 3 months ago. Not only was he pushing his girlfriend for the abortion (which she wanted anyway) but my a$$-hat brother-in-law referred to her as the whore trying to trap his son and she’d better get rid of it. Lovely.

    My husbands best friend impregnated his long term girlfriend but convinced her to get rid of the baby because he knew he wasn’t going to marry her. She really wanted the baby.

    So don’t preach to women about abortion and how “pro-life” men are until you find yourself pregnant and faced with a choice. Men aren’t any more noble than women are. Just as many men shirk familial responsibilities as women have abortions. What men want is to force women back into being incubators with no choices, freedoms or escape from men. Men want control, women want equity.

    Also citing survey’s from 15 – 20 years ago doesn’t add and credit to your claims.

    Would I like to see abortion go away? Absolutely. In fact, give technology another 20 years and we’ll come up with an implant that lasts until women are ready to be pregnant. We’re almost there now with products like Mirena which last 5 years. If insurance companies would cover birth control instead of viagra, the world would be a better place. I’d much rather the government pay for birth control for the poor than abortion (which should be on one’s own dime).


    1. A recent study published in The New York Times surveyed women in abusive relationships about their partners’ attitudes toward contraceptive usage. What it determined was that a high proportion of the partners of these women sabotaged their use of contraceptives by poking holes in condoms, hiding/destroying/altering contraceptives and contraceptive devices, throwing them away and/or doing anything possible to disrupt/prevent their use. The result: an increase in unwanted pregnancies (unwanted on the woman’s part, wanted on the partner’s).

      When discussing abortion and how to prevent it, both partners’ roles need to be addressed–not just the woman’s.


  8. Feminists have been opposed to the development of a male pill all along. All the attempts to develop one to date have resulted in massive side affects. But Israel scientists have developed one that has no affect on libido or sexual function. It blocks a protien that renders sperm incapable of getting into an egg. All hormone levels are left in tact, semen and sperm production are normal in quantity. Wont be long until men have the option of not impregnating women against their will……wait till you here the feminists screaming and complianing when men have the same power over their reproductive organs as women have had for decades. Wait till you see women having to but deals with men if they want his kids. I can’t wait….bring it on.


  9. After reading all the posts I’d like to offer my take on marriage and the roles of men and women in society.

    Ladies, we guys just don’t give a damn about you anymore. We couldn’t care less about your body, your right to choose, or your happiness. We don’t give a damn about your hopes or desires for marriage or what your think. We no longer care if you suffer from sickness, lack of health care or job opportunities.

    Above all we especially don’t give a damn how your feel….about anything. We couldn’t care less how much you cry or what you cry about.


    1. Poor, unfunny troll.
      Read more carefully next time, and try to understand exaggeration as a rhetorical device used for effect to bring out a more important point.


  10. FYI

    I did read all too carefully and I said exactly what I meant to say. Learn to understand plain English when you read it.


    1. Ah, so you’re a real life misogynist. Charming…

      You’re basically the male equivalent of Simone de Beauvoir with her man hatred. Thankfully, you don’t speak for all men, just as she doesn’t speak for all women.


  11. I may not speak for all men but I’m sure I speak for quite a few since I don’t see a torrent of men coming to your defense.

    Misogynist you say, well yeah, the numbers of us out there might surprise you.


  12. Mary, McS!
    What are you thinking?

    Disengage and walk away. Talking to a man like this will profit you as much as walking down a dark alley in the bad part of the big city.
    Don’t do it.
    It is not wise.

    2Timothy3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
    Vs2 for men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
    vs3 unloving, irroconcilable, malicious, gossips, without self-control, burtal, haters of good,
    vs4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God;
    vs5 holding fo a form of godliness (or religion), although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these.

    Disengage and walk away.


    1. Mara, not trying to be too hard on you, but you have to understand that there are A LOT of men out there like Ben, and probably a good first step would be to talk to him about why he feels that men should avoid women. There is something called a “marriage strike” going on right now, and I think the reason why this marriage strike is happening is precisely because women have changed the laws around divorce and custody so that marriage no longer makes sense for men. We have to ask Ben what happened before we can judge him.

      I already e-mailed him privately. It doesn’t cause me to have a high opinion of women that the response so far has been to judge Ben and not to ask him. That’s how we got into this mess of fatherlessness in the first place – by treating men as sperm-donors and wallets, and not thinking about how no-fault divorce, unfair custody laws, etc. would affect men.

      In these situations, women and men both need to understand what risks and dangers the other sex is seeing in order to vote for laws that are more fair and more marriage-friendly, and that’s what’s best for the children. If it turns out that Ben is responsible for his own problems because he made bad choices with women, then we should suggest resources to him so he can govern himself better and make better decisions.


      1. Wintery.
        He said point blank that he hates women. ALL women.
        There’s not a thing I can do to change that being female.
        And he’s right, there are lots and lots and lots of men who hate women, traffic women, can’t get any sexual satisfaction unless they are hurting women. And their numbers are increasing.
        And it doesn’t have anything to do with the laws. It has to do with men thinking women are less than human and should just be door mates and masochistic.
        OR, it has to do with abusive mothers or female authority figures.
        It is wrong, prejudiced, and painting all women with the same brush.
        And being female, there’s nothing I can do about it except lay down and let him walk all over me or nod my approval when he walks all over and abuses some other woman for his satisfaction and approval. (which doesn’t actually help, only feeds the hatred and contempt.)

        If you want to help him, fine. But honestly, I don’t think you can because of your own issues with how women need to fit into the boxes you want instead of just letting them be human.

        Just for the record, I deal with women who HATE men. They think ALL men are evil and paint ALL men with the same brush because of past abuse or divorce gone bad or whatever.

        I try to work with them and help them see that they are being prejudiced, narrow-minded, and unfair towards all men because of a few bad ones.

        I wish I could trust you to do the same for Ben. But you have such hang ups with the laws and third wave feminists… I don’t know. I don’t have high hopes. Guess I’m willing to let you surprise me though.


        1. I noticed, in your reply, that you have no idea why Ben thinks the way he thinks. Is that an appropriate method of problem solving? Demonizing the other and dictating the solutions before gathering evidence? Can you really get buy in from the other side if you just dominate them without asking them how they feel? Do men have feelings? Do they have incentives to act one way or another? What effects have specific third-wave feminist policies had on their decision making? Those are the questions that feminists don’t ask, because I am not sure that they appreciate that there are other viewpoints than their own. Feminists cannot just do what they want, make poor decisions, and then apply for a bailout or pass a coercive law. Men get tired of being taxed and tired of being dominated, and they drop out. We don’t know what happened to Ben until we ask him. If he made a bad decision, it’s his own fault and we can try to help him to make better decisions. But if he is a victim of discrimination and injustice, then, if we are good fair-minded people, we should ask him for the root causes of his unhappiness. We should listen to him. We should try to understand his feelings from his perspective, and accept that his feelings may be different from our feelings. That his needs may be distinct from our own. That he is not a hairy woman whose whole purpose in life is to be dominated like a little boy and ordered around and told to shut up and pay for things. We don’t know until we ask him what happened. If he is Donald Trump, and marries starlets who divorce, then he is a fool and deserves blame. But if he is just the victim of a fake rape accusation, like the Duke students who were prosecuted by Duke University and the lying stripper? We really can’t pronounce guilt on him until we can take a walk in his shoes.

          I think that the reason why there are so many divorces today is that women project their own needs and beliefs onto men and just assume that the men have no will of their own, no goals of their own, no needs of their own. And that the man should just be a tool in the woman’s toolbox, that she uses to make herself happy. When men start to rebel, then women divorce the very men they chose for failure to perform up to expectations – 70% of divorces are initiated by women and the vast, vast majority are done “no-fault”, for “irreconcilable differences”. Men don’t divorce their wives.


          1. Ben: “Ladies, we guys just don’t give a damn about you anymore. We couldn’t care less about your body, your right to choose, or your happiness. We don’t give a damn about your hopes or desires for marriage or what your think. We no longer care if you suffer from sickness, lack of health care or job opportunities.

            Above all we especially don’t give a damn how your feel….about anything. We couldn’t care less how much you cry or what you cry about.”

            Ben tells me he doesn’t give a damn about me and I believe him.

            When any man talks like this, any woman within 100 feet needs to get away and let the men deal with it. Because guess what?
            When a man says he has no empathy for me or anything about me without knowing me or my situation, that is a dangerous man.
            Ben may or may not act out on his hatred against women. But the hatred is there, oozing out of him. I have no assurance that he won’t act out on it. Some men do and a woman simply cannot guess which ones won’t and which ones will.

            You telling me to have sympathy for him is like telling me to pick up an unknown hitchhiker along the road. That’s not my job as a woman. I have to be careful. If you think he needs to be picked up, pick him up. Don’t try to shame me into it. The world (including the internet)has become a very, very, very dangerous place for women. We HAVE to be defensive in order to survive. We have to take care of ourselves. We cannot rely on men like Ben to give two $%!&$ on whether we even live or die because he says, point blank, without knowing me from a third wave feminist, that he doesn’t give a rip.

            Just for the record, I don’t see the same concern from you for angry and hateful women who come here to vent. They might have just as much reason as Ben. But instead of asking them why they feel the way they do, you go on tirades against them and talk about being objective and reasonable.

            The only tirade I went on was to tell the other gals to stand back and get away from a man who sounds like he’s ready to go postal on all women for the sake of God knows what.

            If you want to know, ask him. I’ll watch from the sidelines. If I see anything other than hatred and utter contempt being hurled at women in every direction, I might venture into the conversation. Otherwise, don’t ask me to heap abuse upon myself by engaging a man who clearly hates my guts.


          2. I agree completely with Mara. WK, you have a double standard. Swap the gender of the pronouns and call the person “Bernice” and your reaction would be very different. Sad to note really…


        1. “WK: in your opinion, how would Christ handle this”

          It would depend on what he wanted from Christ.

          In study of the scriptures – Christ answered everyone who approached him for healing and other things ( The only request He made was to His disciples).

          I hope that answers your question and thank you for asking it – I learned from it – Time to pray !!!!!


      2. You’re right. There is a marriage strike going on and I’m all for it.

        Many of us guys are shutting down the institution of marriage (or at least our half of it) until further notice. Sooner or later the movement will reach critical mass and marriage on women’s terms will be out of business.

        This applies to straight, gay, bi, or trans. It still takes two of “someone” to make a marriage.


        1. Ben I have to disagree with you on the any two people can have a marriage. The research shows that two opposite-sex parents in a formal lifelong marriage are best for children. It’s not my opinion, those are the facts. If we really care about children, we have to promote what works best for their health. Traditional marriage, and shared parenting in the case of a divorce.

          Marriage vs same-sex unions:

          I think that we should have an idea of what marriage is that reflects the interests of the children. Right now, we have a 42% out-of-wedlock birth rate. Maybe we should be re-thinking our criteria for what creates a lasting relationship and governing our search for lasting love with the best evidence available.


          1. I don’t think Ben cares about research or facts. He just likes his pity party and the morbid satisfaction it gives him to hate half the human race.


          2. Just for the record, I don’t think that disagreement with women and avoidance of women and taking a defensive stance against unfair confiscation of assets constitutes hate in the slightest way. Disagreement is not hate. Avoidance is not hate. Not caring is not hate.


  13. This has been a fantastic post. Many thanks WN for bringing it to light.

    Birth Control
    It is quite a shame that there is still unwanted pregnancy in the year of 2011 DESPITE birth control having a failure rate of <.005 % and the wide spread availability of it ( it is given to 1st graders in some parts of the country). You can draw your own conclusion – but the problem is a moral, behavior, and and sin issue and not a medical issue.

    Single Parenting
    Personal experience here. I was raised in a broken home of divorce of domestic violence in the ghetto. In addition, my father died when I was 10 which was a blessing. Mom went back to school at 48 for her teaching degree, took care of my brother, myself, and grandmother who had dementia and never dated nor remarried. My brother received his BS in ME and my BA is in business ( sister has her PHD). I was very fortunate to have the influence of Godly men who possessed the highest integrity and morals. This learning has stayed with me and has brought me to be my own man and understand consequences, causation, and discipline.
    This is the exception rather than the rule – I dont recommend single parenting – while it may make the boy more "sensitive" to women – he will be ill equipped to deal will everything else. Parenting requires both sexes and is a mutual effort to raise healthy / strong / educated / balanced children that will not end up as a statistic. ANYTHING THAT SUGGESTS SINGLE PARENTING AS ACCEPTABLE / HEALTHY / PREFERRED MEANS TO RAISE CHILDREN IS SELF DELUSIONAL AND ATTEMPTING TO JUSTIFY THEIR POOR DECISION ( I believe they are writing a book of gross error in a attempt to make ends. Only a selfish idiot would willfully chose to choose single parenthood).

    Ben's Comment
    I think get where this guy is coming from. He is utterly sick and fed- up with the "ME FIRST" feminist brain washing that prevails and is constantly being fed though a IV via the media and Hollyweird.

    Chances are he has experienced this the hardway and gone into the self protective mode.

    Despite appearances – The best case scenario is too learn from it and not become bitter, resentful, chose not to hurt others and learn how to forgive ( as we are forgiven as well).

    I willingly confess – I hold a "very detached" internal stance when specifically dealing with women (others as well ). It is a discipline to avoid deception from others and hopefully minimize the deluding of myself.

    This is "keeping my power for me" and for whom is deemed worthy to receive my attention, affection, and romance ( I am big romantic goo-ball – this has proved to my detriment despite good behavior, honorable intentions, and chaste courting). Imo, woman say they want a Christian man of character, integrity, and spiritual leadership but they themselves lack virtue and are morally and spiritually bankrupt.

    In review, my error was not knowing what I wanted, settling for less, and not waiting on God. Needless to say, repentance from my errors has kept me incredible heartache, time, and opportunity ( ie strict guidelins -I suggest looking at WN criteria and John Pipers questions and asking God for His desires and no casual dating). Any romance or exhibition of internal feelings will occur AFTER the criteria is met and I know I am NOT dealing with a self serving emotionally needy sociopath/psychopath.

    Btw, all of us suffered from divorces ( poor choices


    1. Mike, I agree that single parenting is a bad idea and contraceptives are not the solution to unplanned pregnancy.

      I also understand that you are wary of being burned by women and that you’ve had bad experiences. But statements like this one really get to me:
      “Imo, woman say they want a Christian man of character, integrity, and spiritual leadership but they themselves lack virtue and are morally and spiritually bankrupt.”
      There you go making blanket statements about “women”. Not “some women”, not “most women”, but “women”. That’s patently unfair. And WK does it too, though he’s trying to mend his ways after some of us brought it to his attention.

      There are plenty of dishourable men in the world too, but I’m not going to say that “men lack virtue and are morally and spiritually bankrupt”, because it would be unfair to the men who are not like that. I won’t tar all men with the same brush.

      Please can we not make unfair blanket statements. It really doesn’t help matters and just antagonizes people against the opposite sex who would ordinarily not feel antagonistic.

      I’m a conservative, pro-life, complementarian virgin woman who is trying to live God’d way, but every time a man makes a statement like this that disregards women like me and assumes all women are like the crazy feminazis, it takes its toll and makes me more and more defensive…


      1. I don’t know. I’ve seen pictures of you, and you look mean and angry and dangerous. I looked at the pictures for 180 seconds and decided, and I’m not changing my mind.

        Oh just for those who don’t know, I am just teasing Mary. Mary is a good friend.


        1. What advice would I give you about marriage?

          I don’t know, but I’d say it’s a dangerous gamble at best and you’d be better off taking your chances in Vegas.

          If you marry and it doesn’t work out then all the preparation and research and statistics in the world won’t help you. So spare yourself.

          I always thought, and some told me that I was privileged to be spared the misery and stress of keeping a marriage and relationship together.

          I’m speaking for myself only here,but I’ve seen very few marriages, even church ones that look worth having.


    2. Hi Mike:

      You sound like a reasonable guy so I’ll offer some of my background info:

      While I did not have your experiences I do have respect for your situation. Sounds like you came out of it and did quite well.

      My comments are in response to a collection of bad experinces with women over a period of years. I came from an intact family with strong ties to the Baptist church. My dad was a bank president and city councilman. He later served on the Board of Trustees at my undergraduate college. My mother (a lovely woman) was a teacher and owned a home business.

      Here’s what you should take away from my earlier comments.

      We guys won’t stand idly by after marriage and let you strip us of any and all assets just because you feel “empowered”. We will fight back in court and we will make it count.

      Example: I watched as a chemical engineer friend of mine married and had two children, a nice home, and two luxury cars. His wife suddenly decided she didn’t have it good enough and began dismantling the marriage. After a long and expensive divorce he finally knucked under to her and forfeited all assets. I’m saying that I among others would have used any and all means to protect our assets.

      So ladies, keep that in mind the next time you feel a man isn’t worth your time and you may as well screw him for any and everything you can get.


      1. Question for Ben: You said you don’t care about how women feel at all. Yet you say your mother is a lovely person. So, do you care about your mother or does she also fall in the dehumanizing “couldn’t care if you live or die” bracket?


        1. Yes I do care. She’s one of the maybe 3 people for whom I give a damn what they think.

          But then, like many women of her generation, she was gracious, mannerly and had lots of common sense. She had a teaching career and built a successful costume design business. She lived it everyday. She never conspired to destroy and dismantle what she and dad helped to build. She earned the respect of men and women.

          And don’t give me the false argument that no opportunities existed for her generation, or that their tradiitonal marriage forced her to live in the kitchen (we eventually hired help for that).

          She was heads above and beyond the attitudes you get from many women today who often marry solely for the chance to take the man for a cleaning.


          1. Ben I am a young man who is always open to marriage. What advice do you have for me for testing women to see if they are a risk for a divorce? I don’t want to choose a woman who will divorce me, and I think that it is my responsibility to choose wisely to make sure that this is less likely to happen to me. What warning signs should I look for, and how should I prepare my own character so that I am intelligent and wise and can reject the bad women and still choose one of the few good ones? I’m looking for advice, because I don’t want my kids to suffer because am not a good chooser.


          2. Now were talking, Ben! This comment is much more rational and fair. See, now I can see that you can recognize and appreciate good women when you meet them. I think your mother sounds amazing. I’m very glad she showed you what a good woman is like. I also appreciate that you said “most women” when describing unsuitable women instead of just “women”. This makes a big difference. Sure, most women are very messed up. I can accept that. Of course, so are most men. It’s a combination of the fallenness of humanity combined with a culture which is increasingly depraved, and self indulgent. But there are good men and good women in the world too. I’ve met them. One just has to be *very* selective.


          3. Ben,you shouldn’t personalize your friend’s experience. It’s HIS experience, not yours. Or have you had this experience, too? Hard to tell.


      2. Ben: “My mother (a lovely woman) was a teacher and owned a home business.”

        Ahhh! This is much better. I can engage with this, if you really don’t hate me and all women and if I haven’t already offended the freaking hell out of you, then we can talk.

        Ben: “Example: I watched as a chemical engineer friend of mine married and had two children, a nice home, and two luxury cars. His wife suddenly decided she didn’t have it good enough and began dismantling the marriage. After a long and expensive divorce he finally knucked under to her and forfeited all assets. I’m saying that I among others would have used any and all means to protect our assets.”

        I absolutely expect nothing less. If a woman is going to play hard ball in the court system and try to take her husband to the cleaners in the divorce court, I expect him to fight for all he’s worth.
        I have no problem accepting the fact that there are some very bad women out there. I have no problem accepting the fact that even decent women can start out okay then get spoiled and stupid and turn on decent men. When this happens, I do not expect for a man to lay down and be run over by her. He needs to fight. If she’s not playing fair, he needs to roll up his sleeves, get in there, and protect his assets.
        And if (this is a huge if) he can remain cordial and gentlemenly about it, my respect for him increases. If he can’t. I can’t judge him too harshly for taking on a bit of bitterness. As long as, when it’s over, he can work to make himself not hate all women because of his idiot ex.


      3. Ben,

        Thank you for the vote of confidence. I am very much in agreement with you about ” We will fight back in court and we will make it count.”

        However, I didnt make it out. I lost everything ($800k house, 401k, boat, dog, credit, and my hard worked career with a Fortune 500 Biotech company. In fact her and her 2 lawyers breached a court ordered and incurred a $400k loss that affected me alone (everything was in my name). I took the hit and loss everything. Needless to say God was faithful and prepared me for a trial through a godly LDS ex-California lawyer and while I did lose in trial – I won in Appeals Court and I am now rid of her at a very high cost.

        During this whole time of of extreme humbling and loss – it has brought me back to God and taught me to forgive and not be bitter. Incredible lessons are learned when one is brought low and I appreciate His incredible kindness, learning experiences, and people who have helped along the way.

        Btw, in regards to my ex (suicide attempts x 3, STD’s and failed multiple failed relationships) is continually in my prayers due to inability to recognize consequences.

        Trust me on this one – you reap what you sow……


        1. Mike,
          If I hadn’t decided whether or not I liked you before, I decided that I like you today.

          You are now on my list of good men.

          Yes, they are out there, ladies. Just be patient and don’t jump into dumb relationships with low-lifes that look good and can talk a good talk, but when the rubber meets the road, they are worthless leeches or gone with the wind.


          1. Mara,

            Thank you for the kind words and good advice- I really appreciate it. I have read your post and have showed them to my women friends ( it is incredible to see a woman who “gets it” and has wisdom (your husband is a very very blessed man).

            I have to confess it took me awhile to find my feet post dating ( the road back to Christ was a very, very painful road of discovery of self inflicted pain) while yanking me out of the world and the world out of me. As I mentioned before, I am very thankful He has saved me from myself and bringing exceptional people to help along the way ( this website has been a God send beyond words in helping me construct my “modesti” and “animi firmitas”.

            Thank you again !!


        2. Mike, thank you for sharing your experience with us. I am sorry to hear of the pain and hurt you have experienced. On the other hand, it’s very encouraging to see how God has used that awful experience to instruct you and bring you back to Himself. Keep making Him the top priority in your life, above any woman, and make that clear to any woman you consider courting. If she’s a good woman, she’ll like you more for it.


          1. Thank you Mary – I appreciate it and I really appreciate everything He has done and doing.

            May I offer some additional insight ? The Christian walk is ANYTHING but boring – it is exciting to see how God works (the smallest details – amazing).

            In addition, it really offers insight into the scriptures as one is brought low and God brings light and allows repentance. All I want is more of Him and it would be great to to find someone to share the experience with and learn from.


          2. I agree wholeheartedly! :) God has worked in ways in my life that I would never have guessed at.

            And yes, you want to keep on the straight and narrow way. If you find someone to join you (and I hope you do), they must want to walk that road too – with all the trials and joys that come with it. It can be a hard road, but it’s the best one because it leads to eternal life. :)


        3. Mike:

          WK asked me what advice I’d give him about marriage. I really didn’t know since I’ve never been married or in a relationship before but I think the 2nd verse of the song “Someday Lady You’ll Accompany Me by Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band (circa 1978) sums up the journey pretty well.

          “Some people say that love’s a losing game”

          “You start with fire but you lose the flame”

          “The ashes smoulder but the warmth’s soon gone”

          “In the cold and lonely on your own”


  14. Lol..You are technically correct. However, may I shed some insight that might be of assistance and not bring apprehension into the discussion.

    Communication between men and women is a little bit different.

    I woud tend to believe that most men would read my post and “get” that I am referring to the “majority” of women and not “all / 100 %” of women. I know a couple of very incredible women and I consider their husbands to be very blessed men.

    My experience leads me to believe that most women would throw out the entire post due and point out a very minor quibble and not asking to clarify or read between the lines.

    This is a attack of the person vs. attacking the argument.

    Dont get me wrong – I am a little bit familiar with law / legal arguments and using the “100% /all the time/everyone” is the quickest way to destroy a persons credibility.

    Granted I have a woman friend who is the only exception that is incredibly intellectually honest and “gets it” ( Btw, she has a couple phd’s under her belt).

    May I go a step further ?

    Expecting absolute perfection and not giving any leeway or inability or unwillingness to read between the lines is setting a very high bar.

    Quite often the standards we have for others is much higher than what we have for ourself and this is what causes self deception and eventually we will hurt ourselves and those around us which care the most.


    1. When a woman says something along the lines of, “Imo, men say they want a Christian woman of character, integrity, and spiritual intelligence, but they themselves lack virtue and are morally and spiritually bankrupt.” or “All they really want is a maid/prostitute/babysitter that they can boss around,” or “they’re all abusive,” or “but they’re really just looking for some easy girl that’ll ‘give it up'”, then I think most of the men here would be upset by such blanket generalizations. I think they would object with the fact that these are characterizations that they themselves have spoken at length about how they are explicitly *against* such things.

      I think the woman who made such a statement would probably be told that she’s buying into the “feminist lie” and perhaps that she’s reacting emotionally (like a woman).

      It really seems inappropriate that blanket statements of this sort go uncorrected, regardless of who they target.


      1. Oh, I don’t mind. I don’t identify with men in general. I always ask for a specific behavior/policy that they are disagreeing with. I don’t take a behavior/policy discussion personally. If there is some group of people that is bugging me, then I explain what they are doing that is bugging me, and why.


        1. But the attack itself is of a personal nature. The person saying, “all men are abusive,” is not attacking a policy, they’re not even attacking a behavior (abuse is wrong). It is a personal attack against a wide swath of people. That statement is saying, “are you a man? If you are, then you are an abuser.” Whether or not *you* know that you’re an abuser, the person making the comment is still accusing you of being one, simply because of your gender.

          I think any decent person should feel called upon to defend “all men” against such an unfounded accusation. And I think it would be fair for a man who has spent his life trying to fight abuse, to be personally affronted by such an accusation. An insult is an insult, regardless of whether or not it’s true. In fact, it often isn’t. That doesn’t make it any less offensive.


          1. When a woman says all men are bad, she doesn’t mean all men, she means something that most men do is bad.

            I sometimes listen to Bill Bennett on the morning drive in to work and he has a motto. His motto is intlligence, candor and goodwill. I think part of intelligence is being aware of the bad things that men do that women face, so you are fully aware of what men can do and do not view them as angels without wings. And part of goodwill is just assuming that the person you are talking to has some reason for saying that. So I just say to women – oh some which of the bad things that most men do is that you want to discuss? Just assume that the woman has some reason for saying that and ask for it. If she says something bad, then you can judge her – e.g. – if she says that the reason that single mothers raise bad children is because the government doesn’t pay them enough and they need more money, then you bring the stats that show that even correcting for income, fatherless children do much worse than children who have fathers.


        2. What nonsense. You’re always talking about men as “we” and going on about how men are being badly treated and made fun of. This post is a perfect example. Your problem is that you’re inconsistent and you won’t admit it.


          1. Well, have you ever read books like “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” and “The Politically Incorrect Guide to Women, Sex and Feminism”? Sometimes women need to do a better job of understanding men so that they can talk to men like Ben. Have you read those books? I just need a yes or no. I am learning a lot from reading James Dobson’s book on things that wives wish that men knew about women. I also read about divorce laws from Stephen Baskerville, the effects of divorce on children from Elizabeth Marquardt, the effects of day care on children by Mary Eberstadt, books on education policy by Thomas Sowell, and so on. Dozens of books on marriage and parenting. Because I want to get married, and I need to do more preparation than holding babies and attending weddings. But I’m sure you are well prepared for marriage.


          2. The books you mentioned are on my “to read” list. However, at the moment I’m reading Andreas J. Kostenberger’s “God, Marriage and Family”, which is very good. I have also read a lot of other material on marriage too. So yes, I think I’m pretty well prepared in terms of reading, thank you. :)

            However, you’re changing the subject – which I’m not going to let you get away with doing. :] I was mentioning your inconsistency in dealing with men vs how you deal with women. I don’t see you being as gracious with women. Fine, be gracious with men, but perhaps the same approach would be well applied to women too then. And you DO take it personally when men are spoken ill of.


          3. The big red book, huh? I didn’t find that book to be very useful. Just wait until you read the part where he explains the pro-life view by citing the Bible. He’s not linked to the real world – real data.


          4. Thanks for your earlier comment.

            You seem to focus a lot on the word hate. For the record, I never used the word hate.

            Maybe I could have phrased my earlier comments this way:

            Ladies, we guys are no longer sympathetic to you when you carp and complain about your feelings and how disrespected your are. We no longer value your opinion when you call us immature, computer game playing man-children (some of us are and some of us aren’t, I doubt that will change anytime soon)

            Although we men never said you were stupid or didn’t have two brain cells to rub together, dumping on us for not “manning up” won’t get you anywhere.

            Plying us with loads of statistics and surveys and research won’t help either. We don’t need it to know we’re under attack. Get all the Masters and PhDs you like, but it won’t change a thing.

            So yes, if I didn’t phrase things clearly, I apologize, and no, I don’t virulently hate all women, but don’t misunderstand our position here.

            And yes, I’m willing to talk.


          5. “Although we men never said you were stupid or didn’t have two brain cells to rub together, dumping on us for not “manning up” won’t get you anywhere. ”

            Ben, we agree on that.

            I think we disagree on the importance of research. Imagine you are dating a woman and you ask her whether she considers divorce as being on the table. There are three possible answers. She can say “yes, divorce is on the table”, and then you can dump her at the curb. She can say “I don’t know”, and then you can dump her at the curb. And she can say “Yes, it’s off the table”. What I am saying is that I don’t accept YES as an answer. My next question for the “YES” person is “WHY?” And when I ask that question, I expect her to explain what divorce does to men, what it does to children and what it does to women. I don’t believe “YES”. That is an opinion. What I am looking for is for her to demonstrate that she is aware of the facts so that she has KNOWLEDGE, not an OPINION. An opinion can change when the people feel slighted or when they feel selfish or when they feel anything. But facts are facts, and I expect people to know the facts before I marry them.


          6. Lol.. in thinking about this – this is a “perfect” example of the miscommunication that occurs.

            Rather than focus in what is being said and addressing the main point/truth/ criticism. A mountain is made out a mole hill of what should is commonly understood. Much like when walking into a high energy place “everyone is going nuts” when it is clearly understood the bulk is.

            If I may make a following observation ?

            I kinda like what Ben said – ” I don’t care” :0


          7. Thanks for your comment, Ben. I really appreciate the clarification. I do recognize that some women make things miserable for men and then the men think “why the heck should I bother with women if this is what I get?” Of course some men do this to women too. Humanity is pretty messed up. What can one say? I think it’s up to decent women and men to go against the flow and educate others.

            In that regard, statistics and research are your friend because they reveal general trends and illustrate to others that a problem exists in a broad way and show whether it is getting better or worse. Good research is the friend of truth.


          8. WK: Kostenberger’s book is about *God*, marriage and family. I think quoting from the Bible is entirely appropriate and should be the primary source when we want to know God’s heart on a matter.


          9. I am fairly involved with pro-life activism and let me just say that I have given Kostenberger’s book to a pro-life activist and she was EXTREMELY disappointed with the incompetence he displayed in the chapters on pro-life apologetics. It was juvenile. No interaction with the literature or the scholars, just an analysis of the Bible. Completely useless for all practical purposes since pro-aborts do not acknowledge the Bible as an authority. It’s a bad book.


          10. Well, I haven’t gotten to that part yet. But I’m not sure it’s meant to be an apologetics book. It’s about understanding what God’s stance is via the Bible. It’s for people who already acknowledge the authority of the Bible. Not *every* book has to be apologetics, good as that is.


      2. Francine,

        Thank you- I appreciate your gentle and correct reply. Massive generalizations which involve painting with wide paint brushes are incorrect ( I agree with you:)

        However, may I ask you a couple of questions ?

        – How many real “Christians” do you know ?
        – How many single Christian men or woman actually court and are abstain from pre-martial sex (chaste) ?
        -How many millions of people who actually attend church or professed to be a Christian/ Catholic/Protestant/LDS at one point in the USA ?

        Now do the math of Christians (men and women) who are chaste ( I would estimate a fraction less than 1%).

        What are your thoughts ?

        LOL – can you see the WIDE PAINT BRUSH ? It is statistically insigificant imo…

        In conclusion, I agree with you – As a absolute you are correct for correcting my blanket generalizations (thank you). However, may I suggest further thought and take a step back and analyze the situation and ” read between the lines”.


        1. Hi Mike,

          Looking back on the course of our conversation, I realized I didn’t feel the need to respond until I saw your response to Mary (who first asked you not to make generalizations. And I don’t want to speak for her here, but I’m guessing this was one she may have taken somewhat personally, since from what I’ve read of what she writes here, she is making a concerted effort to be a woman of spiritual integrity, etc). I interpreted your response to basically be saying, oh this is how we men talk to each other, this is just a problem of breakdown of communication between men and women. Please correct me if I have misinterpreted your words.

          Honestly, I don’t have any “data” to back up this opinion, you might be right that this is how men generally talk and men generally “get it”, but it seemed startling to me that a man would really be unaffected by such a comment and “know better” than to take that kind of comment as personally affronting. Maybe they do, but in addition, I do think that such blanket generalizations which can easily be read as a general attack on a wide variety of people that share a single trait (gender, race, country of origin, etc.) do little to help discourse, and merely cause easy distractions from the matter at hand because they have caused a personal, emotional response that becomes the center of attention (as has happened here). And at the very least, it makes us better communicators to try to weed those out.

          Honestly, I don’t have much opinion on the topic at hand. I think it would turn into a debate of what “spiritually and morally *bankrupt*” really means, and once we’d settled that I think that would lead me say that your own wide paint brush paints all of humanity, and (as has been pointed out on this blog many times before) there’s no need to focus on the “women are bad” side of things when really the statement is “people are bad”. Anyway, I am somewhat embarrassed that this has become such a tangent. (Though, this again harkens back to my point that statements like this can cause distracting tangents.)


          1. Thank you, Francine. :)

            I notice that the men here are saying they don’t mind if women make these generalizing remarks, but my experience is that they do mind very much indeed.

            If they really don’t care what women say, why is it that quotes like “a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle” make men so upset?

            I’d like the men who frequent this site to have a look at these guy bashing quotes: http://kimierose.tripod.com/id15.html
            So now I ask the men, do you still not mind women making these generalizations about men? After all, a lot of these quotes are true about many men, some are even true about the majority of men.

            See, I’m very careful not to make such remarks about “men” without qualifying it to say “some men”, even “many men”, where appropriate. Otherwise it would be unfair of me.

            There are a lot of jerks out there, but there are also good guys and they don’t deserve to be tarred with the same brush.


          2. Agree and point taken. Thank you for pointing out the obvious which “can be misinterpreted”.

            However, may I propose the following ?

            If was reworded to say “99. 5% of women” vs. “all women” would it honestly make a difference ? I will even be generous to to go bump it to 95%. If one doesnt act that way or is part of that group – then one should not be offended. May I suggest the obvious – if one is offended by the statement – then one is part of that group ( Think about this one) Ie like all blond women are bimbos. If a blond women is offended by that statement – then she is admitting to being a blond bimbo. In addition, EVERYONE KNOWS THAT NOT ALL BLOND WOMEN ARE BIMBOS. With that being said,it is grammatical syntax error that is quite often WILLFULLY misinterpreted to avoid the main point.

            May I offer the following suggestion ? Follow the truth and see where it goes ( this works for me). For example, if the majority ( ie 99.5% ) of Christian women are a church attender vs. a really obeying/relationship with Jesus ? Then maybe bring up the point of how many men who profess to be Christian men and are not men of character/ integrity ? Chances are it is pretty much the same statistic.

            With that being said – if the Christian church is conducting themselves in this matter – then Houston there is a problem.


          3. I am getting a little frightened at how the word hate is being thrown around when men disagree with women and how women take everything so personally and nitpick about minor things instead of debating the issues and side-stepping the implied personal attack. And by women, I mean Mary.


          4. I am biologically a woman. I didn’t choose it. I don’t get to choose to be part of “womankind” or opt in. That’s why I find it annoying. The “if you object it means you’re guilty” thing is such baseless nonsense. By that token, if men are offended when women call men jerks, they must clearly be jerks. This is not the case.

            WK, when it’s about “women” as opposed to a certain kind of woman or a woman who chooses a particular behaviour, then it is a personal attack. I realize some men may not get this because they’re so used to doing it, but it would be nice if instead of getting “hey, what are you worrying about? chill!” if my concerns were actually taken seriously. This has nothing to do with being disagreed with, but with being implicitly branded simply based on my biology. You go on about how women are supposed to care about how men feel. Well, we have feelings too, thanks. If you can take things personally (which you do), then so can we. Sauce for the goose and the gander, mister.This may be minor to YOU, but it isn’t to me. And if anyone has been doing sidestepping, WK, it’s you. I challenge you on bias and you ask me about my reading material!


      1. May I make the following observation ?

        As I right this reply – there are little children being used for sexual gratification all over the world. The availability of sex / sin is epidemic and I would suggest at a all time world time historical high – we have far surpassed hedonistic Rome imo. In short, “spiritual climate” is so sexually energized due to incredible amount of demonic activity ( I am quite surprised why God has allowed this to go on for this long – we are due for judgement).

        How many people (Christians, Saints, Disciples) do you think are actually chaste and stand their ground on living a life of abstinence ? It takes a very intense daily walk in constant prayer / interaction with Jesus to personally stand and overcome this battle. Yes it is a battle – may I suggest reading Rev 2:19 – 29( To the Church in Thyatira).

        To my personal knowledge and experience – I have only run across one other woman to date. The other women I have encountered say “they want a Godly man with character and integrity” but have no idea of the discipline it takes to lead holy life (btw, these are church going / Spirit filled / calling of God is one them). But they dont take the scriptures seriously and act accordingly ( knowingly sin and God will forgive me belief) and want to live like the world. I have gotten past blaming them ( they were taught incorrect doctrine) and pray for them.

        I hope that helps.


        1. I don’t really trust what people say or choose or feel. I always ask them what they’ve read and written. I think you have to convince yourself about being good before you can be good. Just saying your opinion isn’t going to hold up under temptation and pressure.


  15. Mike, I don’t think you get how big a deal it is to have women constantly denigrated en masse. How does it feel when some women say “men are jerks!”, which is what some women say. I’ll bet it feels lousy and unfair. You seem like a smart enough guy to be accurate. So don’t be lazy. This is NOT a minor point to me at all, it’s a big deal. I am soooo sick and tired of these sort of generalizations. Moreover, it’s NOT an ad hominem argument either. I *do* know the difference. I didn’t call you names. I criticized your way of approaching the topic.


      1. If women say that to you they are wrong and they shouldn’t do it. It’s sexist and it’s slander against men.


  16. A couple of scriptures came to me this morning and I would like to share them since much of these postings are related.

    Matt 10:21
    Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child; and children will take a stand against their parents and will have them put to death.

    Mal 4:6
    And he shall turn and reconcile the hearts of the [estranged] fathers to the [ungodly] children, and the hearts of the [rebellious] children to [the piety of] their fathers [a reconciliation produced by repentance of the ungodly], lest I come and smite the land with a curse and a ban of utter destruction.

    Btw, I went with the Amplified – it fills in the blanks.

    In review of what is occurring in breakdown of mariages, families, parenting, and insemination. These scriptures really make sense (Matt 10:21 – big time).

    I find the consequences (behavior of the children) to be perfect justice to total dismay of the parent(s) who were willfully self serving instead of self sacrificing to the spouse and family. The children rebelling against the parent because they arent “happy” and raised to avoid taking responsibility for their actions and are just like the self serving emotionally / spiritually/ moral sterile parent(s). In essence – the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. Perfect justice…Perfect ( I am not taking pleasure in this speculation – just the mechanics of the causation / consequences of it).

    Society has yet to see the long term repercussions of what is occurring. While I am not a expert ( far from it) , I would suspect it will be seen/felt within the next 1-2 generations.

    I would like to further suggest God will bring out a refined remanent to display His character and to eventually restore what was lost as seen in Mal 4:6


    1. Yes, it is a form of poetic justice. Not to be rejoiced in, but noted. This reminds me of the Earl of Gloucester in Shakespeare’s “King Lear”, who committed adultery and whose son, Edward (produced in that act of adultery), was his downfall. Shakespeare knew a thing or two…


      1. This is one of my favorite plays, and that lesson is a VALUABLE lesson about the importance of children. And it applies to Lear himself with his evil daughters. He actually asked them to flatter him as if that is some indication that they will treat him well in his retirement. This is worse that the 180 second rule!


        1. Indeed. He taught them to cry crocodile tears because he wanted his ego boosted and then he was surprised because they behaved like crocodiles.


          1. The 180 second rule is analogous to the 10 second rule used by men (many men, but in keeping with site convention, I’m now going to say “men”… ha!) to pick who they will have relationships, sex and marriage with. Usually that’s along the lines of whether she looks like Barbie. If they’re Christian, then Bible Barbie will do – i.e. Barbie who goes to church. :-P


  17. Thanks for the insight – I think both Mary and WN are correct and a big “thank you” to Mary for your tongue in check generalization of “men” :) Of which I find very true with the exception of a fraction of 1% ( speculation has me thinking this is true of both sexes)

    Interesting enough, I avoid ALL “Barbies” and “Bimbo’s” whether church or not. Call me jaded – but ” I dont care” ( thanks Ben !!!) My personal experience has lead me to this conclusion.

    Thinking about it – finding / choosing a mate is really a decision that is best given back to God. Asking Him for His desires and not mind. I found out the hard way many times, my choices despite the best intentions lead to disaster. In addition, the biggest fear is trusting God. Can I trust God to this decision/His will – will the person He picks be attractive and not ugly ? Imo, that is everyones biggest fear. Will I get “stuck” into a lifelong commitment with some one quite opposite and unattractive and be unhappy ?

    This “doubt” is the lie or misconception about the character of God. Can I trust God with this decision oir follow my own will?

    God wants to give us the desires of our heart and bring us into love, peace, joy, and fellowship with Him and others ( look back at the Garden of Eden and Gods intention for man/woman). It took a lot of heartache and loss to realize this. One of my biggest regrets in life is not waiting on Him and trusting Him in this matter.


    1. “Thinking about it – finding / choosing a mate is really a decision that is best given back to God.”

      I disagree very strongly with this, but don’t feel the need to fight about it with me.


      1. Allow me to reframe and let me know what your thoughts are…

        Asking God for His direction, guidance, and who He thinks the best woman would be. And asking for Him to prepare me for her and her for me to serve Him together while going through life is Looking back at the Garden of Eden – it was His idea to make a help-mate (it is good for man not to be alone).

        Since He made you/me chances are He knows best ( ie creator). Dont you think He has a pretty idea what would make a good fit ? I humbly suggest the following – much better than then anyone could ever speculate. The real question is ” can I trust God” to bring me into joy ? That was the original question in the Garden of Eden.

        I am doing my best to turn over ever decision and interact with Jesus on EVERYTHING from smallest matters to the largest. Things go much better that way (ie walking/interacting with God on a moment by moment basis. This by far has been the most intense, peaceful, intimate relationship I have to date and it keeps on getting better !!!!!

        Proverb 3
        Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.  In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.

        Psalm 145
        You open your hand and satisfy the desires of every living thing.

        With that being said (I’ll keep it short), I am really careful of what I ask for and desire. I really believe God doesnt answer prayers due to that they will bring harm (James 5). I dont trust myself at this stage in life and would think about asking Him what His desires / calling / will is in everything and “walking with God” to enter His rest ( easier said then done). Granted, having Godly guideline / criteria is absolutely needed while doing this as well as guidance from the His Holy Spirit.

        I sincerely hope that


    2. In my opinion, one of woman’s greatest fears is that her mate will find her unattractive. Unfortunately, a decline in physical attractiveness is the inevitable accompaniment of the blessing of long life. W

      I am finding it less than comforting to hear that having a physically unattractive mate is one of man’s greatest fears.


      1. I guess everyone knows that I hold Michele Bachmann in high regard. And the thing about her is that she is fairly old, but no one seems to notice that about her. Conservatives are wild about her, and we swoon whenever she says anything at all. Why is that?

        Well just listen to her speech, and learn the cure for aging:
        [audio src="http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1701569/MicheleBachmannPellaIowa04112011.mp3" /]

        A woman could be 100 years old, but men would still like her, if she could talk like this. Beauty comes from the inside.


      2. “I am finding it less than comforting to hear that having a physically unattractive mate is one of man’s greatest fears” (Btw, His needs / Her needs by Robert Harley ( great relationship books noted that physical attractiveness ranked in the top 3 out of 10 for men and the bottom 3 out of 10 for women)

        Kill the message not the messenger :)

        May I point out that we are very much sexual beings and was the second commandment given in the Garden of Eden (1. Dont touch the tree 2. Go have fun and reproduce ).

        As WN noted Michele Bachmann is flat out stunning !!! Why is that ? May I offer my viewpoint?

        – EVERY women I have met is insecure about her attractiveness. It is encoded in the DNA.
        – Not every guy finds the stereotypical Hollyweird bimbo (street walker attire that draws everyone attention is commonplace). There are a lot of unkind slang for this – I’ll leave it at “protagonist”.
        – A educated, classy, well taken care women at 45 is far more stunning and COMMANDS my attention, admiration, and my interest than a 25 to 35 year old “hangin it all out to attract”.
        -Most women base too much emphasis on sexual power / attractiveness over a man.
        -Despite what you think, believe, and perceive as true. Christ seen in a woman though her words & actions & thoughts is incredibly attractive and fun to be with vs. a whining, stupid bimbo ( this last about 5 minutes with me if that). There is a ineffable quality of virtue that will have quality men courting her even if she is average looking.

        Why do you think this is ?

        Simply put – she takes care of herself and has a track record of it. Most guys dont really care about how a women “looks” ( women do that to compete with other women). Dont get me wrong – I like attractive but when it accompanied with class and meekness/grace – it commands my attention. What matters to me is how well you take care of what you have. And that is where the rub is…… There are very few disciplined women who spend time watching their diet and spending 1 hour a day exercising.

        Here is a hard fact – 1 hour a day and healthy lifestyle/eating will look much on anyone than clothes or doing your makeup / hair. Most men fear once married – there goes the figure and the healthy lifestyle ( that is what happend to me and my ex-wife refused to take care of herself (size 2 to 12) among ignored health issues that contributed to the ruin the relationship (They could have been easily solved by diet and exercise). How one takes care of themself and exercises is a lifestyle compatibility non negotiable ( just do your best as I will also).

        Mutual attraction is initial “prophylaxis” from first sight to the first 3-5 years of marriage. Once that where off – then the “real marriage” begins ( notices the short comings and mutual irritations starts). There are multiple stages in love – this is one of them till the relationship deepens and the inner beauty takes over.

        As strange as this might sound – most men (including myself) remember point where they first fall in love with a women and it is “timeless image” and the “beauty of thy youth” despite the outer age (it is seen in the eyes IF she is emotionally sound) and when times get rough in the relationship (that is what I recall and blow on the embers and get the fire going again).

        Age is inevitable and happens to both parties. For some odd reason the majority of men seem to age better than women( LOL – they deteriorate when they sleep and require makeup, hair coloring, and a host of other anti-aging schemes while most well kept men look good bald or salt/pepper. So, dont worry about it. Just take care of what you have the best you can and all will be good.

        Hope that helps.


  18. MIke Singer:
    “EVERY women I have met is insecure about her attractiveness. It is encoded in the DNA.”

    Let’s substitute the word “man” and “private parts” in there.

    There now, Mike. How does that feel?

    PS: not to be too hard on you, but I notice a lot of misspelling in your posts. You are not a good speller! Neither are you a social scientist. And if you want to make comments about a large subset of mankind, stick with men. You’re more qualified to offer phony science where they’re concerned.


    1. Hey, McS. Go easy on Mike and his spelling abilities. If we start getting graded on spelling around here, I’m in big trouble.


    2. Lol – McSpinster !!! What part didnt you agree with ?

      When spelling is pointed out in a blog along with a personal attack – it is quite obvious a nerve was triggered ( observational truth “hurts” and are not meant to be taken personally. With that being said – I dont care (thank you, Ben) . I found them to be insightfully and enlightening ( ie 1 hour make up/ hair vs. 1 hour in the gym).

      Btw, I am quite confident of my private parts and health even at the tender age of 46 due to a extremely healthy and disciplined lifestyle which is far from the typical American diet of fast food and alcohol. Not trying to to brag but just as a FYI – I am the exact same weight /waist size as I was at 22 (athletic build) and do modeling (GQ & athletic -shirt off) due to the extreme shortage of athletic men ( btw, take a look at Dara Torres – WOW !!!!) The drawback to this is too many women of the wrong kind and initial perceptions. I pass the 30 second “let hook up rule” with flying colors while it takes quite a bit of interaction /reaching out (very fine line trying to come off right) with the educated and exceptional women to overcome the initial impression since many women have been hurt by guys that look that way. I

      Interesting enough, I meet plenty of women who profess to be “Christians” (Barbies and non) and are looking for a “Christian” man with values/integrity/character. My observation to date, I have run across 1 in 4 years who walk the talk, read, pray, chaste, and know the scriptures ( btw, I travel for work – So Cal, AZ, NV and now live in ID) and hence have seen / courted women in different geographical areas which is whole different topic). Needless to say, I am very thankful for WN and Piper direction and criteria – what took weeks and months to find out – Now takes 5 – 60 minutes.

      Btw, stepping out into the single scene at 42 after being in a relationship /marriage of 19 years is quite a rude awakening – I was nowhere equipped and have learned many painful lessons. Am I a social scientist ?
      Obviously not.
      However, I am a “exception to the rule/ out layer ” as a social subject, physically, and spiritually as I have been told by my friends (MD’s, Phd’s both personally and professionally) and it has been quite a interesting journey of which God has humbly brought me down and gracefully lifted me up ( I am thankful for both).

      Needless to say “the gear” is in great shape and works wonderfully (same as 22). Clean living physically, mentally, and holy living pays off. It would be great to find a athletic Christian woman to pray, play and pursue Christ with.


      1. My goodness…all this talk about women and attractiveness, you’d think that all men had six-packs abs, all their hair and a firm jawline. Wintery, didn’t you tell me you needed to lose a few? Where do you and Mike get off talking about women’s attractiveness like you have some kind of wisdom to impart here. Are you better than they are? You certainly sound like you think so. You know how that sounds? Very unattractive.

        Geez, men die earlier. You think they all go to their graves looking like George Clooney??



          1. How nice for you! But my question still stands: who are you to talk down about women’s attractiveness as you do?

            Your attitude and response seem very unChristian to me. Christ never spoke about women that way.


          2. McSpinster – there is plenty of scripture in both old testament and new testament ( I strongly suggest you read the Song of Solomon – which is located smack in the middle of the bible. It is one big gooey intense erotic love story with “his perfect one”). In fact the entire bible is one big love story with God and his creation.


          3. Not a problem – I will be gentle. Thank you for the reminder.

            There are plenty of scripture on Gods view of Israel in the OT and Christ view on His perfect bride. The common factor it is all about Him and the bride preparing herself to please Him and not the other way. I hope this offers insight.


          4. This is fine, except there is one problem.
            Christ is perfect, no human is.
            Therefore this analogy is flawed.
            Both partners need to work on themselves, not just the female.
            Both partners are to see how to please each other, not just the female.

            Believe me, men thinking that the wife is to work to please him while he’s not obligated to doing the same will kill a marriage.
            Kill it dead.


          5. Are you sure about this? What do the scriptures say ?

            – Noah was perfect
            – God told Abraham to walk before Him and be perfect
            – Davids heart was perfect
            – Job was perfect
            – King Asa’s heart was perfect
            – John parents followed the entire law and was blameless.
            – Christ was perfected through His sufferings

            May I offer the following suggestion ? Do a word search and see what you come up with… ie

            Hebrews 12:23
             23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
            Hebrews 13:21
             21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
            James 1:4
             4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
            James 1:17
             17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
            James 3:2
             2For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
            1 Peter 5:10
             10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you..
            Revelation of John 3:2
             2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

            Long story short, draw your own conclusion but I think Gods idea of perfection is a tad different thans ours…


          6. Thank you for pointing out Psalm 45 Dont forget the rest of it

            Psalm 45

            -Hear, O daughter, and consider, and incline your ear: forget your people and your father’s house, and the king will desire your beauty.
            – Since he is your lord, bow to him.

            Your turn…..


          7. Its interesting that the apostle had to tell men how to love their wives (Eph5:25). No such instruction was given to women. Its as if he knew what was coming.


          8. I think I will feel more comfortable about marrying a woman who can demonstrate that she has researched her obligations and is busy making preparations to live up to them. I always encourage women to study economics and social science to understand how policies affect marriage and family, and so that they can be persuasive if they are raising the children to match the vision of the husband during the early years. Honestly, there is so much to learn about all the challenges that families who want to honor God will face.


          9. “there is so much to learn about all the challenges that families who want to honor God will face.”

            That is a loaded topic… I seriously doubt American Christian women would sacrifice like the first century church and allow their families to live in substandard conditions vs. avoid their children being taken away. It takes a incredibly strong family unit/couple to make that transition when faced with a decision like this.

            I would like to hear your thoughts on this….


          10. Uhmmm.. did you read the entire passage ?
            May I suggest reading the following (ie IN CONTEXT :)

            Before proceeding forward I would offer a casual observation ( this is directed at both men and women and is ever so slightly biased in favor of women ( ie ladies – this is a very good deal for you imo). While you may not agree with the slight bias- then it is perfectly balanced.

            Ladies – if you read this and make ANY excuses or offended – then take it to Jesus and ask Him why you are responding this way and to please bring in HIS truth.

            Eph 5 22-33
            22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
            24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
            25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
            26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word,
            27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
            29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church—
            30 for we are members of his body.
            31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[b]
            32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
            33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

            Colossians 3:
            Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
            19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
            20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord.

            I Peter 3:
            Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives,
            2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.
            3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes.
            4 Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight.
            5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands,
            6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear


          11. What does the scripture say ?

            -Woman was created to be a help-mate for man
            – It is not good for man to be alone
            – Wives obey your husbands
            – Husbands honor your wives (but not to the point where you marry a psycho bimbo that gets her cues from the liberal media vs. a disciplined life of following Christ and eventually destroys the family unit and the children)

            Despite what you think – it is not about you.
            It is about Christ first and then your husband.
            It is about Christ first and honoring your wife.

            Despite what you think – my requirements are pretty darn simple and are still the same.
            – take care of yourself and the dwelling. When I come home – I want a virtuous/healthy/hot wife and meal / pray and play.
            -You will be second to Christ in my heart, I’ll take take care of making $$$ (if I trust you, I will give you complete autonomy) and I will take care of myself in a disciplined healthy lifestyle.

            If that isn’t a good deal – then please do tell what is..


          12. I actually need her to know lots of stuff, because I have to trust her with the children. Ideally, I could get some sort of Michele Bachmann clone, Or Jennifer Marshall from the Heritage Foundation. Someone who can homeschool, and how knows economic and social policy and evidential apologetics. Someone who can write.


          13. I have 17 year proof from my previous marriage – I made the $$ and she took care of the finances ( big mistake looking back) but I have met many responsible women I would trust with my finances.


          14. McSpin,

            Point taken – allow me to ask the following:
            – what do Christian women do to prepare themselves for marriage ?
            – what do Christian men do to prepare themselves for marriage ?
            – How do “we” proceed forward ?

            Your turn…….


          15. For me, I basically list the roles I am expected to perform, and then I try to fit those in with my overall plan, which is basically focused on impacting the university and the local church with good speakers and events, and of course blogging and raising the next William Lane Craig and Michele Bachmann. For my roles, I basically have made and saved a ton of money, learned a ton of apologetics and policy to be able to protect her and the kids from lies, kept chaste so that I could value women for the right reasons, and I have good references from friends that I’ve impacted who have gone on to be world-changers. And they give me references. There is nothing like forwarding a young lady a newspaper article about a friend who has done something amazing, whom you mentored for 15 years. What I am saying to her is “Look what i did with X – he is effective. If you give me children, that’s what I will do with them. Your children will be great and they will serve God”. What she will do for me and the kids will count for Christ – that’s my value proposition. She will be on the field and scoring.

            Sadly, most women use the 180 second rule and do not value the idea of a marriage filled with meaning and purpose – because it is more work and a lot will be expected of her. I would barely trust my kids with Michele Bachmann, so my future wife would have to be that good on policy and apologetics. A cross between Michele Bachmann and Nancy Pearcey and Jennifer Roback Morse and Dr. Laura and Carrie Lukas and Mary Jo Sharp would be ideal. (Or at least someone who has read all those people)


          16. WN,

            If you would like. I would to offer my assistance for your consideration ( you would be shocked what can be accomplished in 3 months).

            Your blog has been very insightful and it is the least I can do in return.


        1. I suggest you take a look at website of buffmother.com as WN suggested. What she is doing isnt that hard nor requires much time – but it does require a incredible amount of discipline.

          Btw, finding “that physique” in a chaste and intellectual,chaste, classy, Christian woman would take a leading of the Holy Spirit.

          The attractiveness is nice but more importantly a person like that understands discipline, healthy lifestyle, activity partner, and would like the same in return.


          1. When I think of women, I think of the things that I want to give them. Obviously, I am more interested in supplying their needs AS CHRISTIANS, and not just doing silly stuff like buying them shoes and taking to them about celebrities. I would channel my efforts to the things they like that are good for them, and to try to draw them away from the things that are bad for them. When I pick a woman to work on, I often buy her useful and practicdal things like books, laptops, debate DVDs, and white roses. And the most important thing is time – women need lots of face to face talking time – it enhances their well-being.

            On the other hand, I find it weird that more women are not curious and accepting of the way men are. A woman’s appearance is a source of tremendous comfort to a man – it’s a gift that women give to men to reward them for doing the right things right. It’s good for women to choose good men who are doing good things and to encourage those good men with words, with help, and with an attractive appearance that she has worked hard on. It’s basically a way of conveying respect to the man. She doesn’t have to look like a model, but she should reveal herself visually to him, and not to other men.

            One of the things I fear most about women is the way that many seem to want to force others to approve of them, and to give them happy feelings, without caring about the needs of others and their obligations. This is written about EXTENSIVELY in “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands”. Men have feelings and needs, too.

            I’m actually reading Dr. Laura’s “Stupid Things Parents Do To Mess Up Their Kids” and learning all about the needs of children. Not that I haven’t read tons of books on children’s needs already! (Brian C. Robertson, Mary Eberstadt, Judith Wallerstein, Miriam Grossman, Elizabeth Marquardt, James Dobson, etc.) When you love someone, you want to know all about the hooks you have in order to leverage them higher. What is it that they like that you can supply them with in order to make them a better person? That’s the question men ask. How can I make her love God and serve him more? How can I make her closer to him and more effective?


  19. PS: I noticed at a significant high school reunion how much better the women looked than the men. They were more put together, in better shape, looked more youthful. Most of them had kids, too.

    Just sayin’ Mike. The age and being out of shape thing cuts both ways. Perhaps women are less judgmental of it out of necessity. Fewer handsome guys means you have fewer choices. There are more good looking women out there. Fewer good looking men. You learn to appreciate what’s there. And men have far finer qualities than how GQ worthy they are. Women too, but men haven’t noticed yet. They haven’t had to for want of more comely partners.


  20. Mike: “Here is a hard fact – 1 hour a day and healthy lifestyle/eating will look much on anyone than clothes or doing your makeup / hair. Most men fear once married – there goes the figure and the healthy lifestyle ( that is what happend to me and my ex-wife refused to take care of herself (size 2 to 12) among ignored health issues that contributed to the ruin the relationship (They could have been easily solved by diet and exercise). How one takes care of themself and exercises is a lifestyle compatibility non negotiable ( just do your best as I will also).”

    Actually, what I find in a lot of relationships, especially homeschool, Christian ones, is that the woman is not supported enough to take care of herself. She’s so busy having to sacrifice her body on reproduction and making sure her husband’s physical needs (food, laundry, etc) are met that she doesn’t have an hour to spend on herself and is even made to feel guilty if she asks for it.

    Often when a woman gets pregnent, the only way she can keep from getting morning sickness all day long is to eat more. Then after the baby, she’s dealing with night feedings and fatigue and much more I’m not going to lay out here and now.

    Some women gain weight due to the stress that their spouse places on them. Other women gain weight because, while she’s fine with a salad in the evening, her spouse wants a seven course meal that she’s supposed to labor over all afternoon in love for him and sit down and eat with him then get up and clean up while he goes to watch tv. She might go to the gym in the morning, except she’s got babies attached to the hip. She might go in the evenings, except he’s worked hard all day long and needs down time so he doesn’t want to watch the kids. If they are wealthy, she can hire a sitter/nanny. If they aren’t. Oh well, sweetie, stinks to be you.

    Then there are the cases where her husband expects her to work all day AND take care of all the home stuff, while he just works all day then does what he wants while he’s off. And he wonders why she can’t keep her weight under control. (DUH!)

    All I’m saying is that there are many, many factors to wife weight gain: reproduction, child care with tiny, stress-inducing beings who can’t do a thing for themselves, Dealing with stessful teenages, and caring for hubbies that wonder what the heck they do all day.
    Often it has to do with a great deal of sacrifice on her part for her family.

    I understand that this is not so in every case. But it is so in far more cases than men want to deal with. It’s just easier to tell fat wife jokes than to see if there is anything they can do to help their wife with burdens that have become quite heavy.

    Jethro: “Hey, Roscoe, how do you turn a fox into an elephant?”
    Roscoe: “Why, I don’t know, Jethro. How do you turn a fox into an elephant?”
    Jethro: “You marry her.”
    (riotous, ignorant, and foolish laughter follows between two doofuses that don’t have a clue, never carried a child to term, and run and hide when the teenagers are having drama attacks.)


    1. Thank you for the insightful reply…. Please indulge me with sharing my “real life” observation and try to overlook my typos’s.

      It is 90% of what you eat and 10% exercise

      Observation #1
      Post marriage women physique & energy levels – diet and exercise going into pregnancy allows for a quick recovery. Using pregnancy as a excuse to put on 30 lbs is a joke and there are no medical studies that support extreme weight gain to a better outcome.
      Show me a woman with a healthy lifestyle and physique (DISCIPLINE) and she will bounce right back after pregnancy.

      Morning sickness is case by case and I know plenty of women who have handled it differently than laying around and eating unhealthy food.

      If the husband and wife are on board – then the entire family is on board. Given the abundance of food in America vs. the health and obesity of the population – there is a incredible disparity.

      Observation #2
      I know plenty of women who take time out for themselves to exercise while taking care of kids, husbands, households, and continue their higher education. In fact, I have seen this with single mothers (full time careers and kids).

      I am going to ask the obvious question – why make a real effort to lead a healthy active lifestyle ?????

      IT FEELS GOOD AND GIVES YOU ENERGY !!! You will have much more energy and feel better and respond better because of the energy it supplies. I cant stress this enough – if you havent been there then it will be foreign to you.
      In other word, by you taking care of you – you will be far better equipped to take on the day. Not to mention – it will really strengthen the physical / sexual component of the relationship.

      Btw, the best physique at ANY AGE I have seen to date was a 49 year old mother of 3 out of Phoenix, AZ. She was a 100% natural and was simply amazing, amazing, amazing, amazing. Incredible amount of self discipline with a very clean diet (she was 100% on) and about 30-45 minutes of exercise a day – Thats it. Moral of the story – it gets easier and the end result is better as one gets older. The American way is to get fat and let yourself go.

      Chances are one watched what they ate and stopped watching Ophra and the TV – there might be a little bit more time.

      Personal Experience:
      I will share this as I think it will help. Personal Disclosure – I am not speaking disparagingly about her. Just my experience and background (17 year marriage and 10 years in Organ Transplantation / Dialysis).

      i unknowingly choose a mate that had a unhealthy lifestyle which turned out to be a major factor in our divorce ( ie my fault)

      In “my situation” my ex didn’t work and didnt have children and had plenty of time to exercise but chose not too. The day was pretty much watching tv, fast food, while claiming she had fibromyalgia. The only time she exercised and took care of herself is when a company trip was forthcoming and she wanted to look good in a bathing suit.
      Then she ate healthy & joined me at the gym. Needless to say she was shocked at the results and looked better and felt better and the fibromyalgia disappeared ( she looked better at 35 than 22 when I first met her). Needless to say, once the trip was completed. Old habits set back in and hence the decline in health along with a victim mentality (I have seen this with 1000’s of patients who desire a liver transplant but continue to drink – Theodore Dalrymple’s “Life At The Bottom” is a great read that describes this victim mentality).
      Needless to say I wasnt happy where we and I was at and told her – we went to consoling and read “His needs / Her needs” and I followed the book and informed my wife I loved her and was struggling with physical temptation from other women and I would like to be attracted to her. My request was she to take care of the house and herself.

      Needless to say, this didnt go over very well with her and she took serious offense. After she had a affair, 3 documented suicide attempts, and and 3 different marriage therapist who pointed out what I said was a attempt to restore the relationship and most people would have stepped out and cheated on the spouse ( I received kudos for being truthful and reaching out for help, remaining faithful and being a standup guy). Two of the three marriage therapist were women and informed her she had a pretty good deal as she lated found out after it was all gone. Therapy was very informative – all involved thought the initial impression was I cheated on her and not the other way around.

      Hence I am a bit jaded when a person who says they dont have time to diet & exercise – I see single moms do it and if they can do it – then married women can too ( My mom was a widow ).

      I hope that offers some insight – I am pretty much in line with Ben’s ” I dont care how you feel” position. It is emotional blackmail most of the time.
      If you really look at it – I do care. More than you do and want the best for “us” and going to evaluate the situation and use tough love if needed.



      1. Well, I guess it’s only fair to tell you my story, Mike.

        My husband complained early in our marriage, within the first year, when I made him baked chicken and served him broccoli that either wasn’t cooked or was cooked with no cheese sauce on it. So I learned how to fry chicken and make cheese sauce to please him.
        When ever I’d get the hair brained idea that I should start cooking healthy, he’d act like I was out to kill him.

        I’d make him supper and we’d eat around 6. Then around 8, he’s start pulling out pots and pans to cook some more because he was hungry, so I moved supper back a bit so he wasn’t eating twice. (he grew up an a dairy farm and didn’t eat until after the cows were milked at night. I used to never eat past 6 at night.)

        When I was a working mom with a toddler and an infant, I used to walk, pushing a double stroller until I quit because my wrists hurt and I was afraid I’d get carpel tunnel.

        When I was a stay at home, homeschool mom and my husband worked normal hours, I walked early in the morning, while he and the kids were in bed which really helped fight against the bad eating habits that we were engaged in. Yes, sorry. I gave into my husband’s bad eating plan because the house was much more peaceful. A person simply wears down after a few battles in WWIII

        Well, we had a bad year in 2003. Both his parents died, five weeks apart. He lost his day job, lost his ministry, and was diagnosed with Adult ADHD. (No freaking wonder I was stressed all the time. btw stress makes keeping weight off more difficult. But somehow I always managed as long as I could walk.)

        I had to put my kids in school and we both got jobs. I worked thirds for a while and walked on my breaks about the residential campus at night. (btw, fatigue also makes keeping weight off more difficult. But as long as I walked, I could keep from gaining too much.)

        A few years after terrible 2003 my dear husband decided to have a mid-life crisis for several years. It was extremely stressful as he threatened divorce and became quite verbally abusive.
        (“I hope you drowned on a pound of sludge b!tch!” is one example.)
        I was quite sure, at one point, that I would be another divorce statistic.

        We’ve come out of that except he’s a total alcoholic and does nothing around the house and almost nothing with the kids. (daughter was in a school play. the one night he could go, he drank with a buddy instead)

        I work firsts now, in a sit down job (love the job, hate the sit down part), He works seconds and when he comes home he’s not alway nice about being quiet and wakes me up anywhere between three and five am, but I don’t say anything because it will be WWIV and there will be no sleeping at all. Sometimes I’m startled awake and it takes me some time to get back to sleep.

        I have no help, six and a half hours each day to do laundry, cook, take kids to piano lessons, go to sports events, go grocery shoping, go to school events etc.
        I need to get back into a walking plan really, really bad because that’s what works for me no matter how my life is falling apart in any other way. That’s how I was skinny before I got married and even during the early part of my marriage when we started eating bad. But I’m too tired in the morning to get up, too busy at night when I get home, and when the ADHD alcoholic husband is at home on the weekends, I never know if it’s going to be peaceful or a WWV weekend.

        My new plan that was working until hubby was on vacation last week was to go to bed at 8 so that when he woke me up anywhere between 3 and 5, I could get up and get stuff done around the house, read my Bible, and walk all before work. Now that he’s back off vacation and the sun is coming up earlier (I hate walking in the a.m. dark. I don’t know why or what the difference is between that and walking on thirds) I’m going to try it again. Hopefully I can get a workable schedule going.

        Honesly, living with Adult ADHD makes it very hard to set a schedule and keep disciplined. My husband, even when he wasn’t going through his mid-life crisis and being hateful, often sabataged my efforts for exercise. He’d give me a hard time when ever I had my “Own agenda” as he would call it. IOWs, don’t do what you want to do or what is good for you, do what I want you to do. And he’d get so hurt if I’d try to keep a schedule that ever got in his way.

        So, I guess what I’m saying is this.
        1. Your experience with your wife does not give you authority to give me or any other woman pat answers. Many of us are doing the best we can with what we have and we don’t have much to work with. You listing fact after fact does nothing to help my situation because your facts don’t touch my situation in the slightest.

        2. You say you don’t care and that you are going by what you see around you rather than studies. Fine. Same here. I no longer listen to men who think they have all the answers but really don’t have a clue about myself or the majority of the women out there.

        I’m trying to still like you.
        But you are making it hard.


        1. P.S.
          Forgot to mention. I’m also pro-marriage and anti-divorce.

          If I weren’t, I’d have canned my husband’s sorry hiney long ago.


          1. Yes.
            Well, I’m very conservative, boardering on being libertarian.

            And though I haven’t read my apologetics book in a week I promise to get back to it. I’m sorry, professor.


          2. I beg to differ. I wouldn’t call anyone who strongly invests in the egalitarian position and ordination of women as ministers conservative (at least not theologically).

            Furthermore, many of Mara’s post have been very harsh toward people who are trying to protect the culture from the homosexual agenda and friendly towards homosexuals. Thus she seems to be following the pattern of first compromising on God’s role for the sexes, leading towards sympathies and eventual acceptance of homosexuality.

            On the other hand, if Mara is strongly pro-life and has refused to divorce her husband because she values the importance of a father in the life of her children and sees divorce as a sin, she gets major props for that.


          3. WG.
            Homosexuals are broken people.
            Jesus died for their sins.
            Christians have done a very lousy job of loving the sinner while hating the sin where homosexuals are concerned. Terribly lousy.
            I am not sympathetic to the homosexual agenda.
            Even during some of the most homosexual times in history, like the golden age of ancient Greece, homosexual marriage was not sanctioned because at least the Greeks understood the futility of it.
            But I’m sensitive the hatred many Christians spew out at them.
            I really don’t see how you confuse my concern to the hearts of these people that Jesus died for as some sort of nod that what they do or that their agenda is okay.
            Unless you think loving them with the love of the Lord somehow endorses their lifestyle?


          4. My political conservatism doesn’t lie in the religious right.
            It is based in my ancestory and where my family if from, the Great Plains. I have a cousin who lives in Wyoming where women were first given the right to vote because they were respected for be strong, independent, and developing the rugged individualism required to carve a life out of the wild and survive the dust bowl and other such things.
            I’m theologically conservative because I believe in the Virgin birth and that the Bible is true and that we can depend on it, when people aren’t twisting and mistranslating it. And even when they are, the over all message of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is undeniable. It is God reaching down to sinful men (and women) and pulling us out of the pit of sin we dig for ourselves. Too bad so many are more concerned with minor issues and make then salvic.


        2. Some studies I came across recently that I thought were pertinent to this conversation.

          http://www.nature.com/ijo/journal/v32/n6/abs/ijo200822a.html — especially the part where it points out that weight discrimination starts earlier in women than men. A point that anecdotally is rather obvious. In my experience, a man can carry much more proportional weight before the average observer would consider them “overweight” than a woman can. Also, a woman can loose much more weight (to a frightening degree sometimes) before people start calling her too skinny.

          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1371735/Millions-women-trade-year-life-perfect-body.html — shows just how much shocking proportions of women are obsessed with their weight. Again, not actually that surprising.


        3. Mara,

          I’m sorry that seem to live with such an ogre of a husband. Of course, we are getting one side of the story. What would your husband be telling us about you if he were posting on this blog? I can’t help but wonder.

          When I was going through my divorce I met a very nice lady in my divorce care group who had been in another divorce care group with my soon-to-be ex-wife. She was absolutely shocked when she found out who I was. She told me that after spending time with me in the group for several months and getting to know me that I was nothing like the way my wife was describing me in the other group. Just saying.

          And even if your husband is this awful man and you are as pure as the wind driven snow, perhaps you are not giving God space to work in your life and improve your marriage. As long as you fight with your husband for leadership and control you are shutting God out of the picture and preventing Him from intervening.

          Whenever I have stopped fighting and turned everything over to God, God has moved mountains and swept my enemies away from me, including my ex-wife when she has gone on the attack by suing me for more money, trying to turn my child against me, or having me investigated by child protective services. Every single time has ended in abject failure and with her in a worst position than she started out with.

          Just something to think about.


          1. I stopped fighting God when I released my husband and my marriage into God’s hands and said, “If he goes, he goes. He doesn’t belong to me. He belongs to You. I don’t have to be afraid of being alone because You, God, will take care of me. You, God, are my source. Not sinful man.”

            It was the best thing I ever did.

            Funny. I don’t see you asking Mike these things.

            But then, that’s how many men are. They stick together. Then get all hurt and indignant and scream “feminism!” when women do it.

            Whatever, WG. We’ve been through this. I played the comp game. I danced to that tune. And dancing to that tune nearly destroyed me and my marriage, thank you very much.

            Rising up in my authority in Christ is what saved it.

            Blame me all you want. Just know that he has brothers who are angry with him for the way he has treated me. And blood is thicker than water, yet my husband’s behavior was bad enough that they picked my side. Even when I was trying to hide his bad behavior to the outside world.

            We are doing much better now. He behavior has improved dramatically and love has come back. He still says harsh things due to lack of brain function from his ADHD. But it’s not the hateful stuff of a few years ago.

            The only reason I gave an example of one of his verbal abuses from the dark times is because men around here think that when a woman says that she’s been verbally abused it’s because her husband tells her she shouldn’t spend so much money on getting her hair done or something.

            I used to like you too, wg. But you are making it hard to keep that feeling up, now that I see more of your unjust double standard toward women. I get so sick of this attitude that if the man is not acting right, it is automatically the woman’s fault. Each one is responsible for his own sin but comp doctrine makes women responsible for their own and their men’s sin.
            And this attitude in you and in portions of the church is what is destroying the church faster from the inside than homosexual anything could ever do from outside the church.

            God is just and sees all. You see through the eyes of your personal prejudice and pet doctrines and the teachings of preachers who skillfully itch your ears.


          2. whoa… pearls of wisdom. Kudo’s and blessing on you for following the scriptures and the Spirit.


          3. Mike, I don’t know if you are saying this to me or to WG.

            Even so, I’ve had a chance to sleep on it and realize I should have waited to respond to wg when I wasn’t angry.

            Also, you’re absolutely right. taking care of yourself is important and sometimes we have to fight for that. I hope you are proud of me. I got up this morning and walked for over an hour.

            And WG, I’m sorry for going off on you. When you and Mike told your stories about your divorces, I believed you that you tried to do everything you could. I understood that you weren’t perfect and made mistakes, but I didn’t hold that against either one of you because it takes to to make a marriage. When one checks out, it’s over.

            It hurt my feelings that you didn’t extend the same consideration to me but rather blamed me when I also did everything I could. Yes, I made mistakes. No, I didn’t handle everything perfect. But I did the best I could, and in my case, the situation turned around.


          4. Mara,

            No apologies necessary. Thanks for responding to my emails. I appreciate your candor and honesty.

            If it seems like I am attacking you, please know that is not my intention at all. I just wanted to throw out some other things for you to consider (if you haven’t already), and wish only the very best for you and your family.


          5. WG, I have a response to you under a different thread because this one is getting too long and I’m losing the patience to navigate it.
            You’ll see is soon.


        4. Mara,

          Thanks for the insight into your situation and I am very sensitive to it ( I have Adult ADHD) and I have a pretty good idea of the effects of how it can effect the other person / relationship and if the other partner has OCD ( I have first hand relationship experience with this combination – my 2 longest courting relationships post divorce involved a ADHD + OCD personality types). Btw, imo a person has either ocd or ahcd. Again, this is my opinion and YMMV

          It is not a particularly good fit with a partner who has (OCD) since what the other person does and how they do it will irritate one and not the other and then the irritated partner (OCD) will nag the other partner (ADHD) which will now be irritated and thus making a less than harmonious situation.

          Sound familiar or am I wwwwwaaayyyyyy oooooooffffffff ? The most misunderstood factor and most harmful and most overlooked is the method of communication that a AHDH person has. It can be very confusing to a linear thinking person (ie OCD)

          Whether OCD or ADHD or drinking or drugs or porn, Christ is much more powerful than all. There is the power to change, however, it requires a willingness to change from the person. And that is where the rub is – most people are quite content. It takes a divine intervention of God to break through the darkness and bring that person to a place where they are forced to make a decision and quite often it is sin related ( imo ymmv). On the bright side, chances are, God is using the situation to transform you into a saint and show the way of salvation to your husband ( this is my guess – but that is pretty much how God salvation works).
          Major kudos to you for sticking in your situation and allowing God to change the both of you.

          Strange as this may sound – dont make ANY excuses for AHDH (I dont) there is plenty a person can do to deal with it if they are willing to. Btw, the same is true of OCD. Both are very destructive personality traits if not recognized and dealt with. A very similar stance is taken with drinking and AA (ie no excuses).

          With that being said – knowing what you know now and if you had a stricter selection criteria – chances are you would not married that person. Hey that was my mistake of my first marriage – I ran right through the stop signs and married a incompatible person – that is my fault.
          Hence, a valid criteria, abstinence,and putting God first is so necessary when choosing a mate ( I dont want to repeat the same mistake). Interesting enough, this sound standard is the EXACT opposite of the secular dating world.

          I am pretty aware of people and family situations more than you think- real clinical experience with heart, liver, and kidney transplantation, personal friends / families, and my own (every situation is unique while remaining having similar traits – either you are a victim or you fight to do your best /take responsibility/ go for a great outcome despite the odds – THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND). Btw, guess which group has the best outcome ?
          While not a professional, I think I am qualified to offer valid opinion.

          If you like – I would be willing to help you out with a lifestyle / diet / exercise plan that can take you back to your high school / college physique if you are serious. It requires a very strong will / discipline to eat clean and short bouts of exercise. You will also have more energy and really get your husbands attention ( btw, the only person you can change is you and you alone. This has a very profound effect on people).

          Hang in there, pray, and follow God – He will change you and end up saving your family.


          1. Thank you for being sensitive to my situation.

            A few clarifications.

            My husband has already been born again.
            I wouldn’t have married him 24 years ago if he wasn’t. He knew there was something up and went to every prayer line and church service to fix him while we were married. For 17 years we lived with this undiagnosed ailment. He was a very frustrated man and didn’t know why but was pretty sure it was my fault somehow. Now that he’s diagnosed and self-medicates with alcohol he knows it’s not all my fault and even when he loses it out of frustration, he’s very good about making amends.

            He’s backslidden and very angry with God for making him ADHD among other things.

            Note, I never truly dated, nor did I ever have sex before marriage. I was a good girl and really prayed about whether or not to marry this man. I felt peace about it. The signs of his ADHD were well hidden. But with each child and new stresses in our lives, it became more appearant and harder for him to hold it together.

            I joined an online support group to get a grip on the issue. It helped a great deal, where the church was no help at all.

            Guess what I’m saying is that I appreciate your optimism and willingness to help, but we are holding as steady as we can. He refuses to get help for his issues. I have to continue to live life as best as I can while he makes his own bad choices.

            As far as diet and excercise, again, I appreciate your help but both my time and resources are very limited. I still plan to eat as well as I can. Hey, my husband it a gardening fiend this year. I’m going to get a lot of whole natural foods and am excited and looking forward to it.
            But for my complicated life style I have to keep my excercise and diet things simple. This book is an oldie but goodie and it’s the one that has helped me to get pass many roadblocks to my heath.
            Maybe when the children all move out, I’ll have more time and money. Maybe.

            Anyway, here’s the book.



  21. Mike, my comment about private parts was an analogy about making sweeping generalizations, which attempt to pass off as universal fact (comments about “women’s DNA,” for example) what is merely personal experience (my wife got fat, I stopped desiring her, my marriage fell apart).

    IMHO, this is a form of laziness masquerading as insight. It is as well a blatant form of narcissism coupled with a rather unChristian sentiment that goes something like this: “I don’t need to make distinctions based on fact. The subject (women) does not deserve it.”

    As for the spelling, I make a distinction between spelling errors and typos. The latter occur when people who know how to spell hit the wrong keys and don’t correct themselves. The former, among people who don’t know how to spell, and don’t know they don’t know–which goes along with people who think their opinions are facts, as you do here.


    1. “my wife got fat, I stopped desiring her, my marriage fell apart”

      Your missing some points.

      – My wife got fat
      – I reached out
      – She took offense
      – She had a affair
      – She was unwilling to get tested for STD”s after unprotected sex with a 28 year old
      – She had 3 suicide attempts
      – She was unwilling to change
      – The community finances, house, 401k, and my career was destroyed in the divorce court. As mentioned earlier, I lost in trial but won in appeals (Btw, only 3%-5% decisions are overturned in Appellate court).

      A little about me – I spent the last 10 years in organ transplantation ( God really blessed me) and I have seen quite a bit and enjoyed the privilege of personally know very, very smart people ( ie world though leaders ) whose isight , experience, and relationship insight has been helpful beyond words and I believe in 2nd chances. I also go through a clinical study pretty quickly and see if it is biased or not.

      Whether you agree with me or not is of little value even if you present a medical / social study. It is “my experience” based on my interpretation of surrounding people and circumstances and facts. Btw, many MD’s will take “this line” due to studies quite dont fit their patient population and quite often they are right.

      Btw, I will change my viewpoint if proved otherwise. But to date, I havent met a women who insecure about her appearance or attractiveness as she ages and and my male friends concur ( as do most females who are willing to admit it) until I meet one, I will continue.

      What I dont understand, what is the real issue ? Both sexes have “class” insecurities or do you just dont like me ????? I think it is the latter and “I dont care !!!! LOL !!!


      1. Mike, you’re absolutely right in everything you said.

        The problems of 1) declining appearance due to obesity, 2) frumpy dressing, 3) overspending, and 4) sex withholding are four of the most common problems that occur with wives after marriage. And the defensiveness and denial of these issues by women before marriage is an incredible disincentive to get married. There is one woman I know who actually photographed her food to send it to me once to show me how carefully she is eating, and she even sent me pictures of her at the gym. I think that this is a good sign. It’s a situation where I think that the more women read about men and their desires, the more trust they will get from men. It’s not that I expect women to AGREE with me about these things before marriage. It’s that I expect them to freely choose to inform themselves – to take an interest in their obligations to others.

        Note: I do not think that any sexual contact is legitimate before marriage, and my rules do not even allow kissing before the engagement – I have reasons for these strict rules.

        I would recommend that women read “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” to learn what men are like, and that men look for women to understand them and act on their needs prior to marriage. E.g. – being visually available, working out, etc. Men really need to look for women who laugh at the assertion that men and women are the same, as this is just broadcasting intentions to divorce. What a woman is really saying when she denies being different from men is that male needs are stupid, that men have no being or personality that is distinct, and that the best way to love a man is by doing whatever the woman wants. It’s amazing and terrifying to me how little women understand about men, marriage and children – and how little they are interested in getting real knowledge about these things – by reading books and policies and evidence. They think that the desire for men and marriage and children IS the preparation. They want X so that wanting of X means that they are prepared for X. That is why women look at wedding pictures and on that basis think they are qualified for marriage. They hold babies and on that basis think they are qualified to be mothers. They know nothing at all about no-fault divorce and what it does to men. And they know nothing at all about what day care does to children. Their desire for happiness IS the SOLE basis for action. No information about what THEY must do to prepare to help others be happy is necessary. And the way to achieve their “goals” is by fixing up their appearance and trying to trick men with pre-marital sex. Naturally appearance and sex are not needed once the trick has been played. They don’t want to understand men, and they don’t care about his needs. Under no circumstances would they even consider submitting to a man or helping him in any way that would make them “feminine”. They use sex because sex is fun. Unfortunately, men usually get tricked into marrying and having children based on appearance and the availability of pre-marital sex. That has got to stop.

        Men: marry a woman who reads books to find out what you are like, what you feel, and what you want. Look for evidence that she enjoys learning about you and giving you what makes you flourish in the relationships. She should be reading books about men and children and constantly changing herself to adjust to these other people.


        1. WN,

          Have you thought about writing a book on Christian courting? ie assembling all your thoughts and writing in one book ?

          It is greatly needed for both sexes. There are a lot of men who have no idea or don’t have the complete picture.

          There are plenty of material for men to be “how to be a pickup artist” that is embraced by the secular world. Imo, as mentioned before the blogs and criteria offered by Piper and your self is the most valuable information I have found to date and have recently picked up Dr. Laura’s books as you have recommended.


          1. What is the value of someone writing a book on Christian courting who hasn’t had it lead to a successful relationship? Who is that going to help, Mike?


          2. All my relationships are successful, because I move women closer to God and build them up strong. You have no idea. My last two girl friends are both back in school. One is completing her BA, and the other is completing her BA and is going for an MA.


        2. I am 28, newly-married and am just starting to learn about the “Men’s Rights” world and the serious complaints men and women have about the treatment of men in modern relationships and legal justice. I learned about this world after reading Dr. Laura’s “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” while preparing for marriage. My husband and I were reading many marriage books at the time and I thought the title was funny. At first, I was surprised by her stance on “frumpy” dressing and excess weight. But the more I thought about it, her stance that it is your obligation to be healthy for your spouse made a lot of sense to me. (Because of this I took my health more seriously after marriage than leading up to the wedding. I may have gone a little overboard, though, because I started weight lifting and now have gorilla arms.)

          I do not think that exercising dietary restraint to the extent of photographing each meal is particularly healthy. Nor do I feel that a woman who wears size 12 clothing is inherently unattractive or unhealthy. I know many women who wear this size who are very beautiful and who eat well.

          I understand that men are visual creatures and that part of what men need is a pretty wife and it is not fair in a marriage, where you give your bodies to one another, to behave as if your body is yours to harm as you please. However, childbirth changes a body. Maybe it adds a little weight. Menopause changes the body and adds a little weight. A woman you marry at a size 2 may, despite living in a healthful way, creep up several dress sizes by the time the kids move out. And she desperately needs her husband to still be attracted to her.

          If I had to guess, I don’t think Mike would have divorced his wife for gaining weight. He seems like a decent man. In fact, if I had to guess, I would guess that if she had given his wishes consideration and cleaned up her diet a bit and started exercising–even if she never lost a pound—he would probably have found her more attractive.


          1. Oh my goodness, you are so awesome. This is exactly what women who are interested in marriage should be doing.

            I am actually a huge fan of women having muscles on their arms and shoulders. You did the right thing, and I’m REALLY proud of you! I hope you used whey protein and ate lots of meat to make those muscles. I am so impressed!

            And she only photographed one meal as an example. Not each meal! And only one picture from the gym. And I had to be really good to get that.

            I find older women very attractive, especially when they lift weights. Younger women are pretty silly. I doubt very much that most women can lift enough weights to the point where their arms are too big – as long as they are not taking steroids. I think you should keep up your weight lifting as you get older, because it is awesome, and you want to avoid losing muscle mass.

            Check out this woman:

            She might be a bit too buff for me, but that’s the right idea.

            Having said that, the reason why I like Michele Bachmann is not because she is some sort of fitness model. It’s because she is passionate and informed. She looks pretty good for her age, and takes her appearance seriously. I think that if I met a woman who was willing to read books about husbands, children, and marriage, and who was concerned about anti-male and anti-child and anti-family policies, then I probably would marry her. It is very attractive when a woman treats men and children as real people, and that’s what reading about them signals to the man. A woman who reads is saying “men are different than me” and “children are different than me”. Men notice that. It impresses them. It makes them think of marriage.

            Would you like to write a guest post for me about your courtship and marriage and your preparations for marriage? I would really really love that!!!!


          2. em,

            With a “victim mentality” it is destructive to themself, relationship, and me ( remember, the two become one). There are a lot of details that I omitted. It was far more complicated then just weight gain – she gave up on living and everything else and went into destructive behavior (emotional, spiritually, financially, sexually, and mentally).
            Not a good thing – there is a point where you have to throw in the towel.
            As mentioned earlier, everything was lost but I found Christ again and learned a huge lesson in forgiveness and worldliness.

            In regards to childbirth – I have plenty and I mean plenty of women bounce back with diet, exercise, and discipline. If she is healthy going into it, she be be healthy during pregnancy and afterwards also. If a women puts on 30 to 50 lbs during pregnancy, it will take quite awhile to come back around. Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here I have see to many attractive 30-50 year olds with incredible builds that have had multiple pregnancies.

            Body Change
            Yes age is inevitable. However, it can be done “gracefully”. Size 2 to size 12 is not attractive and what is even worse – the person knows it and is quite uncomfortable with themself and that is very, very, very unattractive.
            I just ask “do the best with what you have” vs. let yourself go like the majority of America who are now obese( btw, we lead the world in obesity).
            I would like to suggest that a healthy lifestyle along with diet and exercise should be something for YOU and not me!!! Each person reaps the benefit of a beautiful body and confidence as does the other partner – I cant describe this but it is a incredible privilege to touch a womans body that is well taken care of (I am referring to women in 35 to 50 year age range).


        3. Wintery: “The problems of 1) declining appearance due to obesity, 2) frumpy dressing, 3) overspending, and 4) sex withholding are four of the most common problems that occur with wives after marriage”

          I’d like actual studies concerning this and not just unhappy men comparing notes with one another.

          Actually, you could give me studies and I wouldn’t care because guess what? I’m going the route of Mike and Ben. I don’t care.

          According to my personal experience and comparing notes with other females, your quote holds no water.



          1. Dear Mike,

            I am sorry about that painful part of your past and can empathize with finding forgiveness and beginning again.

            I absolutely agree with you that a victim mentality is completely destructive to a marriage and a spouse. I also agree that appearance and weight are one where some women feel entitled to embrace that victim mentality. I would go further and say that our culture makes it easier to embrace this victimhood than to take responsibility and make lifestyle changes.

            I should clarify that I’m not citing childbirth and menopause as excuses for obesity, overweight, or poor care of the body. I am talking about 10-15 extra pounds, stretch marks, wrinkles and non-elastic (saggy) skin. I think these are changes that most women will go through, even with a disciplined diet and exercise routine.

            I think we will have to agree to disagree. I don’t buy that, even with hard work and discipline, any and every woman’s body can just “bounce back” from childbirth and sail gracefully through menopause. While there are many women who can, there are many others who cannot. We are all physically different.


  22. Dear WK,

    I would like to write that post for you. It is up to you if you want to use it. Our story is far from perfect.


  23. Wintery,
    You are so full of it! How does motivating your friends to go off and better themselves equate with successful courting? Seems to me that if men follow your lead, they’ll end up grumpy curmudgeons who end up alone. Seriously, dude. I don’t think you know the first thing about courting, or you wouldn’t be writing this blog which is pretty much devoted to you not being successful in finding a wife.


    1. I found the blogs and criteria extremely useful in that offered further insight into something I was already doing. Lets face it – there is not a lot of material on abstinent Christian dating / courting and the last thing one wants to do is get hurt, hurt someone, or make a very stupid mistake one might not ever recover from.

      What is offered mirrored my experience with courting. Strict criteria to filter out and assure of proper orientation of the person and relationship.

      In addition, it is a great way to build true/healthy friendships with members of the opposite sex which is the foundation of all relationships (we have lost the ability to build true intimate friendships that are based on truth, honesty, benevolence, and mutual respect ).


  24. Mara, I have a sister who died of alcoholism and another who suffers from ADD. I completely empathize with your plight. I have never been married, but being related to these two individuals has exposed me to years of verbal abuse and irrational, stressful and dangerous (mostly financially damaging) behavior. I would never tolerate this from anyone, but with siblings, as with a spouse, you can’t simply ignore them or walk away. Well, you can divorce a spouse (although you have chosen not to) but you can’t divorce a family member.

    Really upsetting stuff. You are remarkable for continuing to care. And WG, it is the care takers who are most at risk of abuse. So take it easy.


    1. Thanks for your understanding, McS. People who haven’t dealt with it have no clue.

      I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. My husband, deep inside, is a good man. He’s just plagued by a bad disorder, called ADHD. His heart it good and he wants to do good (when he’s not going through a bitter mid-life crisis).

      And even though he’s a drunk now and still hasn’t made peace with God, he still works full-time to support a wife and four kids. Even though he has asked himself why did he have so many kids, he hasn’t left us to pursue his wilder side.

      ADHD is like an evil spell that holds its victim in a fog. It hurts him and his family.

      On both the bright and disturbing side, people with ADHD can be charming like Mr. Toad from the Wind in the Willows who was subject to severe manias. (note, dear hubby is not nearly this bad. but he does battle with impulse control and often wins. Toad always loses.)

      My husband has had different manias, fishing, storm chasing, etc. This year it’s pretty tame and very beneficial. I’m not always this lucky. It’s gardening. He puts his all into it and focuses on nothing else. This is why I often have to hold down the fort in all other areas while he’s hyperfocusing on his latest mania.


      1. Oh my goodness! Well I’ve been screamed at while trying to get my sister into rehab, when trying to become her legal guardian (so we could force her into treatment and also to get her license revoked), when trying to use a family home that we all own. Been yelled at when asking her why she didn’t come over to pick up her Christmas gifts (was not allowed to go to her house). THe ADD sister has legal control of some family finances and does not pay bills, even though the rest of the family contributes money to the fund out of which she is supposed to pay them! Does not return phone calls and asks repeatedly why I don’t invite her to do stuff more often. It is spirit-crushing stuff and I do it because if I don’t, it will hurt me as much as it will hurt her. At times, I have sworn that I will simply disown her as a sister, but then I consider that that is an earthly solution, not a God-inspired one. And that God is “our refuge and strength; a very present help in trouble.” I don’t believe in suffering, in other words. I know this goes against the grain of many people here, but that is not God’s plan for my life, or for that of my sisters.
        Even the one who is now deceased. I know she is going on and I don’t know what her experience is. But I’m sure she is working out the same things in her new existence as she was in the old.

        And a little bit less judgmentalism is in order. Many people are working out relationships with abusive loved ones who suffer from disorders that render them unreasonable and, at times, extremely unkind. Mike, you may be one. The abuse is not a gender characteristic. But the ways in which is is parsed among onlookers certainly is. That doesn’t help anybody and I think that it leaves God out of the picture. How are we viewing each other? As God’s loved children? Or are we viewing our own limited human experience as more relevant than the spiritual? I think most of the arguments on this site would dematerialize if we actually put God first and foremost and stopped dwelling only on the mortal view of things.


  25. “A woman’s appearance is a source of tremendous comfort to a man – it’s a gift that women give to men to reward them for doing the right things right.”

    WK, you have completely made a false god out of an entire gender. You are in total awe of them, that is clear. You find them weird, you want to give them gifts, you find them silly but what you apparently find them most of all is rewarding…and terrifying…and you want them most of all to validate you. That does not show much faith in God, my Christian brother.

    You poor sap!


    1. Well, the good ones seem to have an intuitive understanding of this. It’s very weird. They know what men want, they are very feminine, and they seem to be able to handle my clumsiness and desire pretty well. A feminine woman who is a friend of Christ can make a man very very happy. She knows what to do with a man. How to make men flourish. I have seen this done. It is remarkable – like magic.


  26. Re: “She should reveal herself visually to him and not to other men”
    I wouldn’t think “buff mother” would get your approval then when she flaunts a bikini body on the internet for all to ogle.
    Is this modest apparel in which a woman should be dressed? How does that image help Christian men keep their mind chaste?


  27. I would like to hear from McSpinster and specifically the following:

    – what do Christian women do to prepare themselves for marriage ?
    – what do Christian men do to prepare themselves for marriage ?
    – How do “we” proceed forward ?

    Your turn……


  28. If they are interested in marrying, they should make a list of the essential spiritual qualities they value in a spouse and then give gratitude for these qualities wherever they find them (in strangers, in family members, in coworkers), since they are qualities of God that exist in abundance. The second thing is to work to emulate those qualities themselves. Otherwise, the task becomes a matter of a mortal looking for another mortal to complete them. And that leaves God out of the picture.


  29. McSpin

    Psalm 45:10 KJV
    The king’s daughter is all glorious within her clothing is of wrought gold

    Strongs “glorious” reference is 3520 – 520 kbuwddah keb-ood-daw’ irreg. feminine passive participle of 3513; weightiness, i.e. magnificence, wealth:–carriage, all glorious, stately.

    Where did you get “perfect” ?
    And what is your take on the interpretation ?
    It would appear to be describing her appearance.


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