Many small and right leaning news sites talk about indisputable proof of election fraud, while the mainstream media (MSM) emphatically claim no widespread fraud. But the MSM uses strange tactics when discussing allegations of fraud. They often:
- Point out errors made by Trump’s legal team, or make a big deal out of debunking unsubstantiated election fraud claims, but stay silent on many real issues.
- Highlight the Department of Homeland Security’s CISA statement that “the November 3rd election was the most secure in American history.” Even though the voting machine companies accused of fraud (Dominion and Smartmatic) are members of CISA who issued that statement.
- Insist recounting fraudulent ballots proves they’re legitimate.
- Disprove accusations of election merely by having those accused of election fraud explain that they’re not guilty of election fraud. Case Closed.
Of course not every claim of fraud has merit. I’ve spent about 40 hours investigating, reading both sides, weighing evidence, and dividing truth from myth. What follows is the most substantial evidence I’ve found:
1. Counties swing toward Democrats after installing Dominion Voting Machines.
Dominion is the largest provider of voting machines in the US. About 40% of US citizens vote using Dominion machines.
Actuary and insurance fraud specialist Ben Turner looked at counties in 49 states, comparing 657 counties that had adopted Dominion voting machines versus 2,388 counties that had not, since 2008. Turner analyzed with a varying number of control factors–including race, urban/rural shifts, immigration, education, manufacturing dependency, creative-class population, voter preference, and others–up to 100 factors. The counties that installed Dominion machines consistently had 1 to 3% votes shift toward the Democratic presidential candidate versus those that didn’t. The Epoch Times and two statistical experts validated Turner’s data.
An unrelated study looked at all 3,006 counties in the US, comparing how Biden performed in actual votes versus polls prior to the election. They found that in counties with Dominion voting machines, Biden did better than expected 78% of the time. While in counties without Dominion voting machines, Biden performed better than expected only 46% of the time. On average, counties with Dominion voting machines improved Biden’s score above expectations by 5.6%. This trend was maintained even in the strongest Republican and Democrat-leaning counties.
2. Dominion Voting Machines are Designed to Change Votes
Following the 2020 election, Cybersecurity analyst Russel Ramsland visited Antrim County and Central Lake Township in Michigan and (with a judge’s permission) examined Dominion voting machines. In a detailed report, he noted:
- 68% of the votes in Antrim county could not be read by the voting machine. These votes were then adjudicated, a process where an unknown and unobserved administrator would manually enter the values of the votes. (Page 2) He found “all adjudication log entries for the 2020 election cycle are missing” even though there were “vote adjudication logs for prior years.” This “violates state law and prevents a meaningful audit.” (Page 3)
- This high rate of adjudication was “a 2020 issue not seen in previous election cycles still stored on the server.” (Page 3)
- “All security logs for the day after the election, on election day, and prior to election day are gone.” “Other server logs before November 4, 2020 are present; therefore, there is no reasonable explanation for the security logs to be missing.” (Page 4)
- In Central Lake Township, MI, the town clerk re-ran the ballots from a local election on Nov 5th, and then again on Nov 6th after a patch from Dominion was applied. “This resulted in greater than a 60% change in voting results, inexplicably impacting every single election contest in a township with less than 1500 voters.” (Page 11)
Recall that about 40% of US citizens vote using Dominion machines.
Mainstream media and fact checking websites have not addressed these points and instead discredit Ramsland by pointing out that in one table from a 9 page affidavit, Ramsland mixed up counties and townships from MN and MI, along with their totals. Perhaps this could be explained because both states start with “Mi” and Ramsland is from Texas. As well as being under the clock, racing to compile evidence and file charges before votes are certified?
In 2017, Democrat senators Elizabeth Warren, Amy Klobuchar, and Ron Wyden issued a formal complaint in to Dominion about vote switching.
According to the Epoch Times, in October, UBS Securities LLC paid $400 million to Staple Street Capital Group LLC, which owns Dominion Voting Systems, and UBS Securities LLC has ties to the communist party in China. The transaction can be seen on sec.gov.
Director of national intelligence John Ratcliffe confirmed yesterday that China sought to influence the election, but did not go into detail. In a Dec 3 Op-Ed in the Wall Street Journal, Ratcliffe wrote: “The People’s Republic of China poses the greatest threat to America today, and the greatest threat to democracy and freedom world-wide since World War II. The intelligence is clear: Beijing intends to dominate the U.S. and the rest of the planet economically, militarily and technologically. Many of China’s major public initiatives and prominent companies offer only a layer of camouflage to the activities of the Chinese Communist Party.
3. Non Citizens Vote
A JustFacts analysis shows that historically about 16% of US non-citizens illegally register to vote, and about 82% of the time they vote Democrat. Those numbers alone are more than enough to swing the election from Trump to Biden in Arizona (51k) and Georgia (55k). Arizona and Georgia were prevented from verifying voter citizenship by the Obama administration rules.
This analysis was challenged by USA Today, but rebutted in a counter-response by JustFacts.
4. USPS Changed Ballot Dates
Project Veritas interviewed USPS workers from Michigan and Pennsylvania who said the offices were illegally changing dates on ballots to allow late votes, even those postmarked on Nov 5th and 6th. Both post office supervisors hung up the phone after they were asked about it. Claims circulated that USPS worker from PA retracted his statement, but he denies retracting anything, saying he was coerced into signing a retraction.
Changing the dates to count more mail in ballots skews the election because Biden’s supporters are more likely to vote by mail. If this process was widespread, or only performed on absentee Ballots for Biden, it could’ve significantly altered presidential election tally.
5. Various Fraud in Georgia
Missing and Extra Absentee Ballots
Georgia records show 138,029 voters requested absentee ballots but never returned them. Matt Braynard was the strategic director of Trump’s campaign in 2016. Braynard called these voters. Among those who responded, he found:
- 33.29% said they actually DID return an absentee ballot, even though the state had no record of their vote.
- 18.39% said they never even requested an absentee ballot.
The Leftist FactCheck.org criticized Braynard’s methodology because only 0.4% responded to his survey, and because Braynard didn’t account for late ballots, missing/mismatched signatures, or voided ballots. But it’s hard to imagine how those factors could lead to more than a small percentage of error.
“Suitcases filled with Ballots”
In a widely shared video, security camera recordings show suspicious activity during Georgia’s vote recount in Atlanta’s State Farm Arena. At about 8am on election day, a lady with blond braids puts large containers of ballots under a table. Those containers are undisturbed as vote counting proceeds throughout the day. Then poll observers go home at 10:30pm. Afterward, a few remaining workers pull out the same large boxes and for the next two hours, feeding the ballots into machines that can each process about 3000 ballots per hour.
The Associated Press and other news outlets claim this video is debunked because they were ballot containers and not suitcases, as some had claimed. And because Georgia election official Fulton County Elections Director Richard Barron told them “no observers were ever told to leave the facility.” However:
- Republican observers Mitchell Harrison and Michelle Branton signed sworn affidavits say they were told to go home by a lady with blond braids. Prior to that were kept at such a distance it was impossible to meaningfully observe, as can be seen in the video recording. Remember in the video it was the blond lady with braids who brought in the hidden vote containers.
- ABC News likewise reported on election night that “the election department sent the State Farm Arena absentee ballot counters home at 10:30pm” And the Atlanta Journal Constitution: “They planned to stop scanning absentee ballots at 10:30pm and pick it up back in the morning.”
The election officials lied about sending the observers home raises even more suspicion about the late night counting activity.
Unfolded mail in ballots with perfect bubbles all for Biden
19 witnesses signed sworn affidavits (See Exhibits A through U in document 6 here) describing suspicious activity during the Nov 14th recount of Georgia’s Nov 3 ballots.
Among them was Susan Volyes, a vote recount observer in Fulton County, Georgia with 20 years experience handling ballots. In a sworn affidavit she describes:
- Encountering a ballot box of 98 votes for Biden and only 2 for Trump, with paper of a different texture, pre-folded to fit into scanning machines, no markings of where it has come from, with bubbles “unusually uniform, perhaps even with a ballot-marking device.”
- The next day she and her team were given a box of only 60 ballots to check, while other teams were overwhelmed with boxes of over 3000 ballots. After asking to help with counting the other ballots, the officials were “adamant” she and her team go home.
- Other teams were counting ballots individually, with no one verifying the results.
- She and her team were asked to sign a paper saying they had received and verified the voting machines before the voting machines even arrived. Later when the machines arrived they were not sealed or locked, the serial numbers didn’t match, and the coded tags over the memory card were broken.
Maria Diedrich also observed the recount in Fulton County. She reported in a sworn affidavit:
- “one counter seemed to be making piles of 9 (but counting them as 10)”
- When “an elderly counter wrote down the number of ballots, she couldn’t remember the number, the person with her said a different number, they finally agreed on a number” and then put “the number onto the official Audit Board Batch Sheet
- Some of the Republican watchers were asked to go home after it was announced “there were too many party monitors.”
This article from the Epoch Times outlines irregularities described in those and the other affidavits:
- Additional witnesses seeing “hundreds of these ballots seemed impeccable, with no folds or creases.” “No creases in the mail-in ballots giving the impression that they were never folded into an envelope and mailed.” With “bubble selections were perfectly made (all within the circle), only observed sections in black ink, and all happened to be selections for Biden.” And “thousands of ballots that just had the perfect bubble marked for Biden and no markings in the rest of the ballot,” without corresponding envelopes.
- Signatures not being verified.
- Biden’s name being called “over 500 times in a row.” And “hundreds of ballots at a time were counted for Biden only.”
- “Many of the boxes of ballots had voted 100% for Biden and 0% for Trump.” And “many ballots had markings for Biden only, and no markings on the rest of the ballot,” while none of the Trump ballots were marked in the same fashion.
- Military ballots did “not have one specific precinct code on them” but instead had “multiple precincts printed” so it was impossible to tell which precinct the voter was registered.
- “Widespread fraud favoring candidate Biden only.”
Republican recount observer Hale Soucie also reported seeing a worker counting Trump votes for Biden, who continued doing it even after he reported her and a supervisor talked to her.
In 2019, Georgia voting machines were touted as secure because they print “a hard copy of the ballot for voters to review before they cast it.” However, less than a month before the election, “A federal judge… declined to order the state to abandon its touchscreen voting machines in favor of hand-marked paper ballots for the November election.” Marilyn Marks, executive director of the Coalition for Good Governance, lamented the decision: “We are deeply disappointed that Georgia voters will be voting in this important election on unreliable touchscreen machines that produce results that cannot be audited.”
Over 106,000 out of more than half a million ballots were adjudicated in Fulton County, which includes Atlanta. Adjudication in Georgia allows changing votes on a ballot without a log of what was changed.
6. Various Fraud in Michigan
Cybersecurity expert Melissa Carone’s was a contractor for Dominion Voting Systems in Detroit who worked at Detroit’s TCF Center on Election day. Her testimony before Michigan lawmakers was shared widely on social media.
“I observed numerous employees, city workers, running batches of ballots through the tabulators countless times, without discarding them first… Instead of discarding, they were just rescanning, rescanning, rescanning. Counting ballots nine to 10 times.”
Carone describes talking to her manager about the problem: “He [Nick] said, ‘Melissa I don’t want to hear that we have a problem, we are here to assist with IT, we are not here to run their election.’ And at that point, I was really frustrated and upset, I could tell what was going on. They were cheating. It was very, very apparent.” A Republican poll challenger confirmed the legitimacy of Carone’s statements.
Carone was asked why more people hadn’t come forward: “My life has been destroyed because of this. I’ve lost family, I’ve lost friends, I’ve been threatened, my kids have been threatened, I’ve had to move, I’ve had to change my phone number, I’ve had to get rid of social media. Nobody wants to come forward. I can’t even get an actual job any more, because Democrats like to ruin your lives.”
Carone estimated about about 30,000 ballots were scanned multiple times. Biden is alleged to have beat Trump by only 12,670 votes in Georgia.
How did the leftist media discredit Carone? Business Insider pointed out Carone’s fiancé once repeatedly used her phone to send sex tapes to his ex-wife. Super creepy, but does that affect Carone’s testimony? Slate makes fun of her tone, claiming she and the others like her are cranks, only there to be part of something that matters. Saturday Night Live showed a skit satirizing her as a drunk.
Mail in ballots with serial numbers in order
In Detroit, Michigan, an election worker described mail in ballots arriving with their id’s in order, but missing dates. She reports others becoming angry when she tried to report it:
“These are absentee ballots, mail in ballots. They cannot be in sequence. 2232 cannot have 2233 next to it, cause if they’re mailed in they come in all different numbers… there was not even a date on those envelopes… Then I said what is the date on this one? Then they got really mad at me. They said ‘you’re not letting us do our job, you’re disturbing us.'”
Other Testimonies from Michigan
In Detroit, Poll challenger Andrew Sitto reports that “tens of thousands” of ballots arrived at 4:30am, with all he observed going to Biden. Poll challenger Daniel Gustafson confirms, adding that the ballots arrived in large, unsecured bins, with no label indicating their source of origin. Republican poll challenger Robert Cushman says he saw poll workers adding votes from unregistered voters, registering them all with a Jan 1, 1900 birthday. All three men shared their testimony under sworn affidavit.
Poll worker Connie Johnson described three vehicles arrived in Detroit with 130 thousand ballots that literally 100% were for Biden. Afterward GOP ballot watchers were denied access.
Corresponding with these vote dumps, professor of political science Paul Kengor found that on “November 4 in Michigan at roughly 6:30am, 141,258 votes came in for Biden, and only 5,968 for Trump. In Wisconsin at 3:42am., also on November 4,143,379 votes came in for Biden and a puny 25,163 for Trump. On the same day in Georgia at 1:34am, 136,155 votes came in for Biden, and only 29,115 votes came in for Trump.”
In this video (mirror), Antrim county poll workers are shown discussing seeing the same signatures on multiple ballots, and their supervisor angrily insisting they ignore it and move forward.
7. Various Fraud in Pennsylvania
As in Georgia, 2016 Trump campaign strategic director Matt Braynard also phoned absentee voters in Pennsylvania. Among the 1706 people who responded to his survey, Braynard found:
- Among 1706 people that PA had marked as absentee voters, 556 had never requested absentee ballots.
- Among 1137 who did request absentee ballots, 453 mailed their ballots back but PA did not count their ballots.
That means 33% of ballots received were not mailed. 40% of mail in ballots that were mailed were not counted. Duplicate names or other mismatches can’t explain an error rate this high. In PA there were 3,087,524 mail in ballots requested and 2,629,672 returned. Extrapolating, that gives about 1 million votes from absentee ballots that no voters requested, and 1 million absentee ballots that weren’t counted. OANN uses different methods to arrive at 1.5 million fraudulent votes in PA.
At a hearing in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, on Nov 25, retired Colonel Phil Waldron testified to the PA Senate Majority Committee that a batch of ballots recorded 570,000 votes for Biden and only 3,200 votes for Trump. 99.4% of votes for Biden. You can see the video here, at 1:31:15. In that article for the American Spectator, political science prof Paul Kengor states, “this electoral bombshell has been completely ignored by the mainstream press.” I couldn’t find any mainstream news sources mentioning it either.
Biden is alleged to have won PA by 81,660 votes.
This isn’t an exhaustive survey of fraud evidence in the 2020 presidential race. For example I didn’t even include affidavits from witnesses seeing fraud in Wisconsin or Nevada. Nor did I even go through the Navaro Report or many of the claims listed on HereIsTheEvidence.com.
But what I’ve seen is more than enough to convince me that Biden will not be a legitimately elected president when sworn in this Wednesday.
If anything here is incorrect, please comment below and I’ll fix it.
36 thoughts on “What’s the real evidence for 2020 Election Fraud?”
I will never consider him my president. I’d shed no tears if his administration is a total failure and they get all the grief and more the left gave Trump.
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I want the people who voted for him to face the consequences of their policies. The minimum wage workers who are laid off. The evangelical progressives who lose their schools and businesses.
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“If anything here is incorrect, please comment below and I’ll fix it.”
How about the whole thing? Seriously man, this is sad. He lost. All of this ‘evidence’ has been debunked time and again, by various outlets (I’m sure you think they’re just being partisan, and that we can COMPLETELY trust the Epoch Times… ok…), and has been laughed out of courts literally dozens of times by judges, regardless of their political leanings. Here’s but one recanting:
I love apologetics. I have a graduate degree in it. But it is a terrible look when you have back-to-back posts basically equating evidence for the resurrection with evidence that Trump really won. If I’m a non-believer, I’m looking at that thinking, “If this is how he handles evidence with these election fraud conspiracies, why should I trust him when he talks about the resurrection?” Rather than making a good case for fraud, you’re denigrating the evidence for the resurrection, all for the sake of trying to validate Donald Trump. He is most definitely not worth it. I think we’ve done enough damage to our Christian witness by throwing our undying support behind this man. “Wise as serpents, innocent as doves” is the last thing I think of when I think about Trumpian Christian nationalism.
“But what I’ve seen is more than enough to convince me that Biden will not be a legitimately elected president when sworn in this Wednesday.”
And this is the danger of lies and of having a president peddle these lies over and over again. There will be millions who echo your sentiments, and therefore rampant division in this country because of these lies. Prov.6:19 tells me that God hates that and he hates the ones who cause that.
Maybe it’s time to let it go and get to work for the right Kingdom, for the sake of the gospel.
First, I’m a guest blogger and not WK. Second, about 95% of the research and writing I do is in Christian apologetics, not politics.
The American Spectator issued a blanket retraction of everything election fraud related, without even providing any evidence why it was wrong. That in itself is suspicious. They were threatened with an expensive lawsuit, and rather than hire expensive attorneys who would be harassed and threatened with disbarment for taking the case, they played the coward and took the financially easy way out. Biology journals retract intelligent design friendly papers for far less. Does that mean ID is also bunk?
I don’t think any of my sources are non-partisan. Rather, I read both sides on these issues and many other issues. I ended up discarding more than half the claims of fraud for lack of evidence or because I couldn’t determine which side was right.
This is not about Trump. At times Trump has been very dishonest.
Trump was simply the better choice among two flawed candidates, and a stopgap against the radical policies of the Left that will silence Christians and will likely eventually destroy this country if unstopped. This is also about fair elections and exposing corruption, which Christians are called to do.
I’ll gladly annotate or correct anything above if you show I’m in error, but you haven’t done so on a single point.
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Thank you for the reply. My apologies for assuming you were WK; my point about the juxtaposition of resurrection proofs with election fraud proofs still stands, I think.
The issue with American Spectator is curious. To your point about ID papers being rejected, it would depend on the evidence of each case to make a determination, which I’m sure you know. But this isn’t a Darwinian journal trying to silence ID-friendly voices; this is an organization making claims without evidence, and when asked to put their money where their mouth is, it all stopped. Now, as you suggest, maybe it’s because they were cowards and didn’t want to bear the financial costs of a lawsuit. But the overall cumulative narrative would suggest to me that their ‘evidence’ isn’t as strong as they’d want us to believe, and they’d fail in court just like Trump’s lawyers have. Maybe it’s a mixture of the two, but I would think that the damage that retraction could do to their reputation and journalistic integrity would far outweigh any financial loss they could incur in court.
No offense, but I do have a hard time believing that this is not about Trump. I think if the fraud claims/evidence were the same, but the numbers were in Trump’s favor instead of Biden’s, I doubt I’d be seeing so many Christians rushing to demand fair elections and expose corruption. I can’t prove that, of course; that’s something you’d have to determine in your own mind if you’d be just as adamant in other possible worlds.
Frankly, addressing these claims individually at this point is something I fail to see as anything other than a waste of time. These things have been fact-checked to death by people much more qualified than I to speak on such things. If you’ve done your homework like you say you have – which I think you have – there’s nothing I can say that you haven’t already seen. I’ve done my homework and obviously come to different conclusions. I’ll just be pulling from what you or some here would call “Never Trump” sources or “left-leaning” sources, just like you’re pulling from right-wing sources, and that seems a fruitless circle. It’s the bane of not being able to find a truly objective source that everyone can agree on, I suppose.
Again I apologize for not seeing who wrote this, and thank you for the response. I’ve been reading this blog for 8 or 9 years now and always appreciated the resources offered. It’s been discouraging for me to see WK go so hard into the tank for Trump and see a correlative decline in any Christ-like tone towards people with differing political beliefs. I think this blog serves an important purpose for the Kingdom, but these political rabbit holes are unnecessary road blocks, in my opinion. YMMV.
I could take your argument and replace it with evolution or the exodus, and talk about how Kent Hovind and Ron Wyatt have been debunked so many times, and they have. And how almost no real biologists or Egyptologists think ID is real or the Exodus happened, which is also true. As an apologist I commonly get those responses.
Trump’s legal team jumped the shark with some of the evidence. Maybe because there was so much to review (Powell claimed 1000s of sworn affidavits) and they had so little time. Maybe because better lawyers were didn’t take the case because of harassment, which is documented. I don’t know, but the media acted like the media and relished every mistake.
However, if you’re going to engage me in this case, I need to know if any of the specific points I wrote above have been challenged in ways I didn’t already share.
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You write “a correlative decline in any Christ-like tone towards people with differing political beliefs.”
This is not a matter of people merely having different political beliefs, but people who are on the wrong side of yet another human rights atrocity so great that Christ has set forth special warnings (God hates the hands that shed innocent blood and Luke 17:2) and special wrath (see, eg, the Canaanites) for them.
These are people who have also spent 4 years bearing rampant false witness and calling for violence against both Trump and his supporters. We can turn the other cheek AND warn them of Hell-fire too.
Christians of other ages have had very strong words against National Socialists and man-stealers. Chist Himself hates hypocrites and religious hypocrites especially.
The thing most disturbing to me – and I do not know you personally so cannot make this claim against you – is to see so many who claim Christ throwing a fit over 1-6-21 who have nevertheless been silent the past 4 years over the violence from the Left and the last 48 years over the War on the Womb from the Left. It sure must be easier to shout about the specks in Trump and his supporters’ eyes when they will not burn your house down, while being suspiciously silent about the far greater violence from the Left when they will.
Jesus hates cowards and hypocrites, and none will see the Kingdom, not one. (Not claiming that is you, but I see it so much right now by “christians” in the churches.)
So, while you are correct that God has no political party, I can assure you that Satan does. And while it is insufficient to enter the Kingdom as merely a Republican, it is nearly impossible to do so as a 2021 Democrat. (With obvious exceptions for brand new believers.)
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Thank you also for the reply! So that you do know me: I grew up in a conservative Christian home listening to Limbaugh, spent my college years as part of my local young Republicans club, canvassed for GW Bush, argued vehemently for the unborn and traditional marriage, as well as conservative economic policies. Cheered loudly at a McCain/Palin rally, deathly afraid of the coming Obama admin. I saw it as my Christian duty to crush any scent of socialism or leftism in general… out of love, of course (though if I’m honest with myself, I was more concerned with winning arguments and elections, and didn’t actually ‘love’ my opponents.).
My opinions on these things haven’t changed, but my attitude about politics began to shift with an in-depth study of 1 Peter. Here’s a guy who tried to take the Kingdom by the world’s methods when Jesus was being arrested, and Jesus put him in his place – “We don’t fight like they fight.” When he writes his letter, he does so under the cruel corruption and persecution of Nero, and his stance is that we Christians are ‘resident aliens’ and strangers – foreigners whose kingdom isn’t here but somewhere else. Our duty here isn’t to force our way, but to ‘submit’ – it’s the repetitive theme of the letter. Submission in every arena of life, including to those cruel governing authorities. And to live such good and hopeful lives that pagans ask you about your obvious hope and joy. We should be ready to respond, but with love and gentleness. The rest of the NT affirms that the kingdom of God advances through the sacrificial and submissive love of its citizens, and not by the wielding of worldly political power. Study 1 Peter, and I don’t see how anyone could possibly emerge with Christian nationalism.
Over the years this reflection – as well as reflection and study on the Sermon on the Mount, the Gospel of Luke, and Revelation, among others – has caused me to seriously think that maybe we’ve been ‘doing politics’ wrong over the last 40 years. I fear we’ve made an idol out of political power, and we don’t know how to think any differently at this point. E.g., abortion – it’s a grave moral evil; yet PP got its most funding during the Trump years, despite his promises and efforts to defund. The abortion rate has been steadily declining regardless of POTUS and SCOTUS, seeing its sharpest decline during the Obama admin. This is because of work on the ground – work done directly with young unmarried pregnant women, work done with local crisis pregnancy centers, education about sexuality in the home and church, etc. All this tells me that if we want to reduce abortions, we do so from the bottom up, not the top down. But we’ve put so much energy into just trying to get the right people elected so they could eventually overturn Roe, and in 40 years it still hasn’t happened, and probably won’t. But we have hitched our wagon to arrogance, anger, and judgmentalism, in hopes that we might get this long-shot victory somehow. I’m old enough to remember when character mattered because Clinton was in office; now I know that we didn’t really care about his character, we just wanted his power. And that hypocrisy has sullied our witness. Pro-Trump Christians have forfeited their right to issue moral judgments against the Bill Clintons, Anthony Weiners, or Joe Bidens of the world. Critique their policies, fine; but we can’t criticize their personal morality anymore. That was the price we paid for judges, and I think it was a price too high. Being the salt of the earth means we’re supposed to be the preservers of morality, regardless of what benefits it might bring us. (out of mutual respect, this isn’t an indictment against you, as I don’t know your thoughts about the Clinton years or politicians’ morality)
I hear your concerns about stopping evil in its tracks; I’m quite familiar with the rhetoric where they call us fascists and racists, we call them communists, and then it gets so escalated that we get to a point where Biden/Harris = The Third Reich. If you’ve gotten to a point where that’s your moral equation, I’m not sure we’re talking on the same level. I’m not suggesting being passive about truth or about the harms of leftist ideology; we do need to be educated and speak plainly about these things. But political victory isn’t our goal. God doesn’t need certain policies to be enacted in order to accomplish his plans, and Christians don’t need them in order to be faithful Christians.
I think that if Peter’s congregants could see American Christians today, they’d be shocked by how much political power we have, appalled at how we wield it, and saddened by how terrified we are of losing it.
In regards to what you say: “And while it is insufficient to enter the Kingdom as merely a Republican, it is nearly impossible to do so as a 2021 Democrat.” I’m sorry, but this strikes me as a Judaizing kind of “Jesus +” legalism, that there are certain qualifications that have to be met in addition to the blood of Christ. While I disagree with them, I know many good, faithful Christians who are democrats. They do wonderful things for the Kingdom and the gospel, because they don’t focus on politics. In talking with them and getting to know them, I’ve come to realize that they just see things differently than I do – not because they’re evil or stupid, but simply because they see things through a certain lens… just like I do and most everyone does. Now, of course, either I’m wrong or they’re wrong, or we’re both wrong in some things and right in others – my point is that it reeks of political idolatry to suggest that if someone is both a Christian and a democrat, then they’re either hypocrites, false Christians, evil, or that their salvation or their faith is somehow deficient.
The Bible is very clear about resisting the devil and not submitting to him. If Romans 13 included submitting to evil governments, then Harriet Tubman, Corrie ten Boom (yes, I have actually had “christians” tell me that Corrie should have told the Gestapo where the Jews were hiding and “turn them over to God” to which I replied “she would have turned them over to Satan and the Nazis, not God”), Irenal Sendler, Hans and Sophie Scholl, Eta Shiber – I could go on and on – were all “unChristian.” What lawbreakers they were!
You are welcome to stand against those heroes and heroines of the Faith all you want to, but I shall not.
As for Trump, he actually turned away from his sick life (when he was a Democrat), including being a pro-abort back then, and I am not away of any Clinton-type sexual behavior on his part while in office. Clinton still has not turned away from his seedy past. I’m actually surprised you would miss that poorly on attempting a moral equivalence.
The Godly way to end abortion is to abolish it – just like with slavery. The Pro-Lie (not a typo) Movement has thrown tons of money at murderous-minded Moms while lying to them about being victims. THAT is un-Christ-like. The churches, the pro-liars, and yes, many in the GOP are literally “loving” babies to death and women to Hell. If 800,000 child sacrifices in a year, versus a million, is “winning,” I would hate to see what losing looks like. Abolish abortion and criminalize it – just like was done in the late 1800’s for both abortion and slavery.
In that regard, Trump has actually spoken more against abortion than your typical “pastor” who will throw a few crumbs to the unborn this Sunday without really doing anything about it. Furthermore, Trump has spoken out against the Marxists in opposition far more than “pastors” who one day will no longer be able to speak out against them. Read up on the few pastors in Nazi Germany who actually lived out the Faith and did not remain silent. They resisted the devil, even when he was in government. Lawbreakers, every one of them!
“Love” has been redefined by the churches to mean “be nice to others.” That is not the Biblical meaning. In addition to laying down our lives for the least among us and calling out sin, true Love warns and is often a harsh rebuke. That is what churchianity of the last 60 years has missed.
It is not legalism to say that those who support mass child sacrifice will not make the Kingdom. That is just judging fruits so filthy that God clearly says He hates them and issues a stern warning to them – Luke 17:2. Even the Pharisees knew that killing innocent defenseless babies was wrong – they followed the Torah and Tanach – they just might not have saved them on the Sabbath. Democrats make the Pharisees look like saints by comparison. No, there are no God-fearing Democrats, because by supporting what God hates, they cannot fear Him. Yet.
It is amazing that even if you read the 1st century (non-canonical) Didache, you will see most of the things that Democrats love today being clearly called out as the “way of death.” And that doesn’t even get into some of the worst perversions of LGBT like transgendering children, but it does cover the new push by the Left to normalize pedophilia in academia. There is nothing in the Didache that is not explicitly covered by the Bible, or implied. That is why it is non-canonical, I suppose. I agree with you that the early Christians would be shocked by the state of the American Church, although the size of it, I would say is tiny – most studies estimate about 5% of Americans.
Yes, the Church is in sad shape, but that is because it has adopted, and not strongly rejected, the abominations of the Left. Not because it has fought the good fight – in the spiritual sense. Fight with the Gospel first and foremost, yes, but we can still have a list of non-negotiables to go along with it.
It really is strange to me. I knew that killing babies was wrong as a atheistic teen right after Roe. I argued against my liberal family members, and yes, I was still going to Hell then and over the next quarter century as a conservative pro-life atheist. So, that is where I say that politics is insufficient to save. Had I died before repenting and surrendering to Jesus Christ, I would be in Hell right now, conservative pro-lifism notwithstanding.
But, politics sure can damn. You are telling me that there are born again followers of Jesus Christ who do not know that killing innocent defenseless babies in the womb is wrong? Or, perhaps worse, who DO know that, but think it is “just another issue?”
If so, do you think that there were born again German followers of Jesus Christ who did not know that gassing Jews was wrong? Or that there were born again followers of Jesus Christ who did not know that owning, whipping, and murdering Black people was wrong during slavery?
Because, to me, those are just instances of “conversions” that never took, and precisely what Jesus warned us about. According to most polls I have seen, lots of people who call themselves “christian” will never see the Kingdom. I can call myself “Warren Buffet” all day long, but that does not grant me a 10-figure portfolio.
I would, and do, certainly warn those who vote for what God CLEARLY hates and who call themselves “christian” to re-examine themselves. If they support abortion, I tell them to please refer to themselves as “atheists” or :satanists” so that their punishment in Hell will be less. God takes a dim view of those who drag the Body of Christ through the bloodied bodies of butchered babies.
The Democratic Party is as pro-abortion today as they were pro-slavery in the 1800s. Abortion is their unholy sacrament. Just watch and see what Biden’s first acts are in office this week and next. No way does somebody get into the Kingdom off of the backs of aborted babies, even though every nationally elected Democrat gets elected that way.
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I apologize for replying here, it won’t let me reply to your comment below; but that’s the comment I’m addressing…
Romans 13 was written under the rule of a government far more evil than anything we’ve ever seen in America. Submission to governing authorities, even evil ones, does not entail submission to Satan, which is a different verse in a different context. I appreciate the courage and sacrifices of the people you mention, and of course know that there have certainly been instances of justified civil disobedience; the Apostles in Acts give us a picture of that. But that sort of defiance should always be a last resort and handled with great care. I fail to see how what I’ve said about submission in the NT is contradictory to justified civil disobedience. And I still fail to see the moral equivalence between the current Democratic party and Nazi Germany. By your thinking, are you suggesting that Peter should have told his churches to march on Rome and take a stand against their injustices, violently if need be, instead of submitting? While at times civil disobedience is called for, there is still this ubiquitous call to submission in Scripture, and that has to have some teeth. It has to be heeded, even if it’s hard. I guess I’m not seeing the connection you’re trying to make between Corrie Ten Boom and our current situation under a Biden administration.
Christians who are Democrats (at least the ones I know and know of) don’t support abortion, as you accuse. They hate it and think it a grave evil. But they also don’t see how voting pro-life will change anything – and as I’ve mentioned, they’ve got good reason to think that, given the steady decline in the abortion rate (we’re now at pre-Roe levels!). They’re just not single-issue voters, and they see that there are more effective ways of going about the abortion issue (which I mentioned in my last reply), and I can see where they’re coming from. Of course, if someone’s a Christian and loves abortion, there’s clearly something wrong. But that’s not by and large how Christians who vote democrat think or feel, and to accuse them of such is disingenuous, and frankly, bearing false witness. I understand what you’re saying about the party of infanticide, and God hating that, therefore hating those who vote that way. But I could make the same argument about Donald Trump regarding divisiveness. Divisiveness is condemned all over Scripture, and yet DT thrived on it and made his political career out of it. He intentionally stoked division whenever he had the opportunity, and if Prov.6:19 is to be taken seriously, then any Christian who voted for him is complicit in something God hates, at least by your logic. Or think of his many documented lies, something else God hates.
I do agree with you about love including a speaking of the truth. If someone’s careening toward a cliff and having the time of their life, it’s not loving to let them go just because they’re having fun – we stop them! I’m with you there. But love also includes kindness, a very important fruit of the Spirit. And I think kindness is a virtue we’ve sacrificed over the years. We’ve emphasized truth at the expense of kindness, which is tragic – especially since it’s God’s kindness that leads people to repentance. Likewise, he uses our kindness toward others to do the same. Love and kindness, not only to our neighbors, but to our enemies as well. When I hear Christians talk about Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden, or their gay neighbors – or heck, even their Never-Trumper Christian co-workers – their speech may be seasoned with truth, but kindness and empathy and understanding is sometimes hard to find.
And if you’ve got some evidence of a repentance from Donald Trump, I’d love to see it. I just haven’t seen any indication of a changed life, and just watching his speeches and reading his Twitter (pre-banishment) leaves me searching for any sort of fruit of the Spirit, hence the equivalence with Clinton.
Edit: looks like that comment did get put in the right spot!
I think the problem with your election fraud proof and what I have heard from Trump’s lawyers thus far is that, although the case is compelling, it merely proves without a doubt that there is reason to SUSPECT the election was stolen and requires further investigation before anything is certified NOT whether the election was ACTUALLY stolen.
I think this is definitely why all those judges rejected their case left and right. Thus, although I think James is wrong to suggest that Trump and you are not justified in “believing” the election was stolen, I think you and Trump are NOT justified in “claiming” it was stolen and are wrongly jumping the gun.
Nevertheless, I found your brief conversation with James interesting enough to comment on and certainly hope Trump’s lawyer’s continue investigating into the matter until further notice ,as I think you do. ;)
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So much to unpack here!
Former unbeliever here. One of the things that kept me in my atheism was that 99.9999% of churchians and pastors hide their lamps under a bowl and do not fight for “the least of these,” be they the children in the womb or the victims of abominable Leftist (and RINO) politics. What is REALLY sad is that DJT has shown more self-sacrificial love (just wait and see how he is crucified in a few days) than the churches of America.
When it comes to “rampant division” in this country, look no further than the party that believes it is a “right” to mass murder children in the womb up to birth and burn down cities because they don’t get their way. Even in my atheist years, I knew that fighting national socialists was a way of “loving my neighbor as myself.” What is sad is to meet so many who claim Christ who are too “pious” to do so.
Please read up on the White Rose Student Resistance Movement in Munich. These young people lost their heads for writing pamphlets critical of Hitler and National Socialism, and it was not ONLY the plight of the Jews that caused them to risk their lives, but also that of their fellow Germans. Their Christian Faith was implicit and FAR stronger and more coherent than anything we see today. It was most definitely Kingdom work.
One of the reasons that I use a pseudonym is not merely the many death threats, and even attempts on my life, that I have received from the Left, pro-aborts, and BLM, but also because, as an older student of history, I realize that we are in a time where even our “friends” will turn us in. In fact, just a few weeks ago, I was doxxed on another alias. Not by a Leftist, but by a strong Biblical “Christian” who I believe has lost her salvation because of TDS. She could not answer my “loving our victims-of-the-Left neighbors as ourselves” point, so she went low and doxxed me. Just like ANTIFA. Or BLM.
WK, this is for you, Brother. If you still attend an American church and they know you are a conservative, I strongly recommend you get out, no matter how “strong” that church is, and be ever vigilant with your identity. The easy believism, no cost to discipleship churchianity is about to turn on you with a vengeance just like it did on those few Christians who lived in Nazi Germany in the 1930’s and ’40s. And like my doxxer, they will be 100% “certain” that they are offering you up as a sacrifice to their “god” too.
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“If you still attend an American church and they know you are a conservative, I strongly recommend you get out, no matter how “strong” that church is, and be ever vigilant with your identity.”
I don’t live near WK or go to the same church as him, but I’d wager the large majority of people in my own church are very politically conservative and also believe the election was stolen. Not all churches are clueless about the political world.
I’ve listened to some of your church sermons and I was on the edge of my seat, they were so conservative and practical.
It is not a matter of being clueless about the political world at all.
It is a matter of having no spine and turning in your neighbor when things get tough. Or because “we are Gospel only.” Not pointing that charge at you personally, just that I have already experienced this. This is the “fruit” of easy believism, non-confrontational, moralistic therapeutic deistic churchianity.
All it takes is one.
You have not disproven one single thing that this man has shown. He speaks of facts and you merely say he is wrong with absolutely no fact of truth. The election was totally fraudulent with respect to all states that used dominion machines. Virginia, California and Minnesota could all be added to the obvious fraudulent use of these machines
That’s because I’m neither a lawyer nor an elections expert, and I have to trust the many voices I’ve heard who are who have addressed all of these things already ad nauseum. I read these claims and my eyes glaze over. I do know that “This seems suspicious” is not a proof, and that seems to me to be a VAST majority of the fraud claims. I’m unwilling to view the entire American election system and its winners as illegitimate simply on the basis of a string of “this seems suspicious” claims.
I have to agree with you here, for the most part.
The fundamental problem with this election fraud proof and what I have heard from Trump’s lawyers thus far is that, although the case is compelling, it merely proves that there is reason to SUSPECT the election was stolen and requires further investigation before anything was certified NOT whether the election was ACTUALLY stolen.
I think this is definitely why all those judges rejected their case left and right. However, I think your wrong to suggest that Trump and others are not justified in “believing” and expressing that the election was stolen and dismissing their case as being merely driven by personal bias. Again, all Trump and his lawyer’s need to do is continue investigating into the matter until further notice, which I hope they should do.
James, would you be willing to add me on Facebook? I could use a bit of this kind of clear thinking on my page.
Jconrad19 (at) gmail (dot) com
It’s not me, it’s another one of my software engineer friends. We all code for a living.
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Well, I am not sure where this ends up, but I will address just one point of James:
“Christians who are Democrats (at least the ones I know and know of) don’t support abortion, as you accuse. They hate it and think it a grave evil.”
Then, what are they doing about it? Since they “hate” it:
Are they standing in front of the murder mills crying out for the victims? Are they on street corners showing victim imagery and being hated for Jesus and His little ones? Are they crying out to their party to get on the right side of God with the “single issue” of abortion? If it is such a “grave evil” then they would spend more time doing such things than commenting “orange man bad.”
No, they are actually voting FOR the very people who do not even know that abortion is a “grave evil.” It is not “progress” to reduce the murder rate when murder is legal. It is not Christian to vote for what God hates and call it “good.”
One day they will meet the victims of abortion along with the One Who was Himself formed in the womb.
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“Then, what are they doing about it? Since they “hate” it”
They’re involved with real solutions – volunteering at crisis pregnancy centers, forming teaching relationships in their churches, coming alongside scared young single pregnant women – showing them grace and helping them make the right decisions. They’re encouraging others to do the same. They’re doing more to stop abortions than a single vote for a Republican would do, and quite frankly doing far more than a lot of loud-mouthed pro-life Christians are doing, most of whom have no idea where their local crisis pregnancy center even is.
“It is not Christian to vote for what God hates and call it ‘good.'”
I agree, and again I could make the same argument about the divisiveness and mendacity of Donald Trump.
None of those things you just mentioned does a single thing for the babies being slaughtered at the murder mills. Not one. But, they do make for good photo ops, without really paying a price.
If abortion is really so “evil” in the minds of Dem “Christians,” you would think they would be interested in “rescuing those being led to slaughter,” “being the Good Samaritan,” instead of crossing over to the other side of the road when they pass the death camps on the way to their religious activities, and being a voice for the voiceless.
Yes, it is nice to get saves away from the mill – I have had many of those too – but all of the “saves” that the CPC’s get walk right into the front doors of their nice climate-controlled buildings.
There is no cross there, no cost of discipleship, no being hated for Jesus and His little ones. You won’t make any enemies there, your family and friends won’t hate you either. You won’t get anything thrown at you on freezing cold, or desert hot, days, flipped off, had the police called on you by Dems bearing false witness (is there any OTHER witness of a Democrat?!?), and you won’t get your tires slashed, your car egged or keyed, and even get nearly run down. You won’t have to say the words “abortion is murder” or “God hates the hands that shed innocent blood” there either, because, you know, somebody’s feelies might get hurt by the truth. (The REAL reason so many hate Trump – they hate the truth.)
Those are the “solutions” of cowards, and to compare the sin of abortion with “divisiveness” shows just how far the churches have fallen in these latter days. Last I checked, Jesus is the Great Divider, and yes, He is using abortion, transgendering, mask-submission, TDS, Marxism, and many other issues to divide the sheep from the goats.
Meanwhile, the churches can submit to the devil and cover it up with Romans 13, all while “loving” babies to death and women to Hell in their almost universal silence on abortion, and extraordinarily tepid response the few times they DO speak up, like this coming Crumbs for the Unborn Sunday.
I say again, you will stand before God and the victims of abortion. One political party calls their murders “reproductive justice.” God’s Perfect Justice will one day be delivered. For RBG, it already has, and she is now reaping for Eternity the partial birth abortion she championed in this lifetime.
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“Jesus is using mask-submission to divide the sheep from the goats.”
Thanks for the back-n-forth, and God bless.
It took 2 whole days for the new administration of Biden-Harris to celebrate RvW and lay out their plans to enshrine it into federal law.
Have you asked your Democrat “Christian” friends who consider abortion a “grave evil” how they resolve their votes with this demonic celebration of abortion?
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I haven’t, have you? If you’re that curious, why don’t you ask some yourself? If you don’t know any, I highly recommend you expand your circle of friends to include people who think differently than you do. Jesus befriended drunks, thieves, and prostitutes, it’s ok for you to be friends with a democrat. It helps sharpen the mind, and maybe one day you’ll remove those judgmental scare quotes.
Testy, testy, James, LOL!
I have tons of Dems in my family – I come from atheistic Dems, most of whom were not pretenders. I have witnessed to them for decades. And the few that claim to be “Christian,” I have pointed out this “slight” contradiction many times.
If you cared about their souls, you would ask them my question too. But, I imagine you are more interested in being LIKED by pretenders than being salt and LIGHT to pretenders.
“Jesus befriended drunks, thieves, and prostitutes, it’s ok for you to be friends with a democrat.”
Are you saying that your Democrat “christian” friends are drunks (Pelosi), thieves (Biden), prostitutes (Harris), and all around baby-killers (ALL)?!? Because that does not sound like they are saved.
Jesus came to save us FROM our sins, not TO our sins. Prepositions matter. “Go and sin no more” – the most unpreached Words of Christ.
Go ask YOUR Dem “christian” friends my question. Expose their hypocrisy. Love them enough to warn them. If they are really Christians who find abortion a “grave evil,” then they should welcome the question, right?!?
Oh, and ask then if they think Jesus is all-in on boys in girls’ bathrooms and locker rooms too. Because that does not sound “pro-woman” to me. Much less, “Christ-like.”
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My apologies if I came off testy, it wasn’t my intent. I am a bit exasperated at getting sucked back into a fruitless argument that keeps going in circles (I had forgotten why I swore off internet debates over 10 years ago… thanks for the reminder!).
I’m supposed to have bowed out of this conversation a couple of comments ago; the thought process that concludes that people who wear masks during a once-in-a-century global pandemic for the safety of their fellow citizens are condemned as part of the same group of ‘goats’ who fail to clothe the naked and feed the hungry – that’s a level of bizarre I’m really just not even interested in exploring, nor am I prepared to find the patience to intellectually spar with whatever reasoning got you to that point, no offense.
But I do want to say before I bow out for good: It’s not about being ‘liked’ by people. It’s about showing people the same grace and kindness that God showed me, someone who’s no more worthy of God’s grace than anyone else, abortionists and Nazis included. Remember, it’s God’s kindness that leads to repentance (Rom.2:4); Jesus says ‘sin no more,’ but only after he shows jaw-dropping grace. And when I study conversions of the (formerly) most godless among us – e.g., Christopher Yuan, Rosaria Butterfield, my dear friend Martin – faith doesn’t happen because someone comes up to them and calls them a baby-killer for voting democrat. They come to faith through the kindness and hospitality of Christians who invite them into their lives and their homes without judgment or prejudice, build relationships, and with the greatest care show them the goodness, hope, and freedom of the gospel.
We’ve tried for 48 years to out-shout the world and out-anger the world and scare the literal hell out of them. All it’s gotten us is loss after loss in these unfortunate culture wars, to the point where we’re now, as you point out, letting boys into girls’ locker rooms. We lost abortion with Roe, we lost gay marriage with Obergefell, we’re losing transgenderism and euthanasia… every time we demand that the world act like Jesus, we lose. But when WE act like Jesus – when we humble ourselves and serve others, even for the betterment of our enemies – that’s when people come to faith and the church grows. 2,000 years of church history bears that out. Your solution just seems to be to fight harder, shout louder, and dig your heels in and get even more in people’s faces. I’m just not going to play along with that anymore, because it’s doing more harm than good.
I don’t know you, and I don’t know the individual situations that led to the persecutions you described as having suffered earlier. All I have to go on are your own comments here, so if I had to venture a minimally educated guess, I wouldn’t be surprised if at least some of that persecution stems from a perceived spirit of harsh condemnation and a stubborn unwillingness to sympathize with what people believe and why. Just a hunch, I could be wrong. If, as you say, you’ve had extensive conversations with Christians who vote democrat, and still can’t understand why they vote that way, that further supports my hunch. You don’t have to agree with someone’s beliefs to understand why they hold those beliefs, and assuming the worst about them is pharisaical and a violation of the ninth commandment.
Anyway man, I’m out for real this time. I give you the last word if you want it, I promise not to respond this time :) Fire at will.
Unfortunately, NONE of your comments explained how CHRISTIANS can support voting for pro-abortion, pro-LGBT candidates. Your claim was that these Democrat friends of yours were CHRISTIANS, not that they were unsaved and you were showing them excessive grace. You keep straddling that fence line with “They are definitely Christians,” and then using the approach that Christ used with the unsaved as justification. (Not that Christ ingnored the sin, like American churchianity does.) Well, which one is it? I think, deep down, you KNOW they are unsaved, but do not care enough about their souls to be hated by them.
Showing grace to unbelievers is NOT sitting there in silence while not warning them. That is what I did in my atheist years. That is hate, not love, and our Savior did not do that. He consistently said “Go and sin no more.” He did not even fully reveal Himself to the woman at the well until AFTER she had admitted her sins of whoring around. You seem to think that we have lost the culture wars by not being nicer than Jesus, but that charge could be leveled at all past Christians too – they lost the culture wars but they did not give up the fight like most of us have. Some actually won for a time – Wilberforce, Douglass, etc. We lost the culture wars because American churchianity is not remotely related to Christianity.
Hypocrisy is saying “abortion is a grave sin, but I am voting Biden-Harris.” Religious hypocrisy is adding “and I am a Christian too.” Jesus saved His harshest rebukes for religious hypocrites – and yes, even they knew that killing babies was wrong, regardless of location.
We did not lose abortion with Roe, we lost abortion by submission to Roe through a watered-down faith. Similarly submission to bad science, whether through abortion or mask-idolatry or transgendering or the latest insanity, is NOT loving our neighbors as ourselves. It is cowardice, pretension, and virtue signalling. Jesus has exceeding low views of those Democrat “virtues” as well.
It is the weak-minded “Sing a Little Louder” churchianity of the last half century, or more, that has led to this accelerating moral decline in the West. The only reason it has not gone faster is because a few of us refused to stop resisting the devil. Ten righteous men in Sodom, or something to that effect. You can thank me in another thread. :-)
Jesus is very clear about not hiding our lamps under a bowl and about being salt and light in a dying world. As a pro-life conservative atheist, I deferred all of the time to my Dem family while they sinned away in the most abominable manner, but when I became a Christian, I realized that silence like that is itself an abominable sin. That was even before I understood what Christ was saying about the lukewarm.
Your misdiagnosis of my persecution is further evidence of a lack of discernment on your part. The greatest persecution I received was silently holding a loving picture outside of a murder mill – one of a mother and child. That picture reminds the murderous-minded what and whom they are murdering. Of course, they will threaten me and try to kill me. If Jesus preached like the pastors of today, He never would have been crucified. That is why you rarely hear any discussion of abortion in the churches (and what you will hear is watered down) – the Jezebels therein will take their soyboy husbands by the hands and charge right out of there, leaving the collection plates empty.
But, what do the churches and Pro-Lie Movement say? It is mean to tweet the truth, I mean, stand in front of a murder mill? We should all stay home and let those children be slaughtered, even when we have the (fast-vanishing) LEGAL right to be a voice for the voiceless victims (unlike those in the worst decades of pagan Rome). That is a “religion” of cowards and hypocrites – and when Judgment begins at the house of the Lord, they will be the first to go down, long before the abortionists and escorts.
You don’t like the way I fall under persecution? I don’t like the way you don’t.
Your Democrat “christian” friends are on the way to Hell, but you confuse “grace” with silence. No prior Christian age ever believed that. Slapping the Precious Name of Jesus Christ over child sacrifice, transgendering, LGBTQP, Marxism (in all of its increasing forms), etc is NOT a great way to get into the Kingdom.
Repentance is a thing.
“What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” – Romans 6:1-2
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You are swallowing the satanic media’s narrative for shaping your mind when you say DJT is divisive. Then you add he is a liar. So by your own standards, other believers shouldn’t have voted for Biden and Harris. That doesn’t bother you since you are confusing the strengthening of an enemy with being gentle and ready to listen.
Saying that a presidential vote won’t change abortion is a good reason to vote for Biden looks like too hard of a try to give the benefit of the doubt and to avoid upsetting folks.
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Never said that was a good reason to vote for Biden, nor that DT’s divisiveness necessitates a vote for Biden. I was simply trying to make the point that if you’re going to disqualify voting for someone b/c they’re guilty of something God hates, then all politicians are disqualified. Read Prov.6, the seven things the Lord finds detestable.
And I find it baffling that Trump’s divisiveness is simply a satanic media narrative. I didn’t come to that conclusion from the media (I consume very little), but by reading his tweets, listening to him talk, watching his supporters grow angrier and angrier, and him thriving on it and encouraging it.
James, it seems you are making excuses for weak-mindedness and even considering it a virtue.
You say you disagree with these dem brothers, but you conclude that it’s a distraction and therefore doesn’t matter? Why not say to these friends of yours that they don’t see it wisely and convince them of your positions? Instead, you say it’s all good because we are called to submissiveness.
Unless you don’t really care about your beliefs either?
Sorry it seems that way. Not really following what you’re asking here; I’m not suggesting that the abortion issue doesn’t matter, but I am suggesting that the political weight we attach to it probably doesn’t matter as much as we think it does. I’m all for being effective and doing what works when it comes to this issue. 48 years of just trying to vote the right people in over and over again, in hopes that the justices they appoint will finally outlaw it, and having it not happen… starting to feel like we’re spinning our wheels, and it’s costing us a whole lot of our ability to effectively evangelize in the process, by distracting us from giving people the hope of the gospel and by burning bridges with non-believers who won’t even listen to us because we’ve shown so little grace to our opponents.
Honestly, I’m much more bothered by the fact that democrat Christians support economic programs that have negative consequences on the inner cities. But even then, I just think they’re wrong, not evil or stupid.