Here’s a post from Triablogue, the Internet lair of the most fearsome Calvinist bloggers!
Excerpt:
As you make donations over this Christmas season, are you including apologetics ministries in your giving? People will donate many millions of dollars to helping the poor, finding cures for diseases, and other such causes. Governments, universities, and other segments of society will also invest large amounts of money in such things. On an average day, you might hear a few advertisements for charities on the radio, see a few more on television, see a couple others in a magazine, and get an email about one from your employer. Part of the money you earn by going to work will go to government programs intended to do things like providing food and shelter for the poor, in this country and around the world. These efforts involve a tremendous number of organizations and individuals and a tremendous amount of time and money, among other resources. But you’ll rarely be encouraged to give a single penny to any apologetic work.
One of the excuses sometimes cited to justify Christian neglect of apologetics is that God doesn’t need apologetics in order to work in people’s lives. He doesn’t need to use something like a philosophical, historical, or scientific argument.
Let’s apply that same reasoning to other areas of life. God doesn’t need our prayers. Let’s stop praying. Or just let a tiny minority of the church do it occasionally. God also doesn’t need Bible translators and publishers, and He doesn’t need to have you read the Bible. He can just implant the information directly into your heart. He also doesn’t need parents. Or pastors. He’s omnipotent. He can accomplish things without using us. Let’s not just neglect apologetics. Let’s neglect these other things, too, and see what happens.
I’m convinced that one of the most significant weaknesses of the modern church is a neglect of apologetics. And we’re living in an information age, when apologetics is even more important than it was previously. What if God sometimes allows us to suffer the normal consequences of our intellectual carelessness? What if, instead of constantly supernaturally intervening in order to make up for our neglect, He sometimes lets us suffer the natural consequences of our bad choices?
Ideas have consequences, and persuading people to hold one belief rather than another can have major significance. It’s something that can “greatly help” (Acts 18:27-28). If you give money to alleviate something like poverty or a disease, then why not give money to uproot ideas that produce those symptoms? We’re often focused more on shallow solutions than ones that are deeper and more lasting. We give money in response to poverty, a tsunami, or the spread of a disease, but we give much less, if anything, in response to the false ideas that surround us. Instead of feeling guilty for giving money to an apologetics ministry rather than something like a ministry that helps the poor, we ought to feel guilty for giving such a low percentage of our donations to apologetic work. If you give all of your donations to non-apologetic causes and none to apologetics, the world will applaud you. But we should be judging things by a different standard.
That’s a perfect post, and I left some of it out. The Triabloguers also give a list of charities that they support, and I support those too.
But here are the ones I personally like best: (in alphabetical order)
- Brian Auten (Apologetics 315)
- Scott Klusendorf (Life Training Institute)
- Michael Licona (Risen Jesus)
- Frank Turek (Cross Examined)
- Jim Wallace (Please Convince Me)
Jim Wallace is a bit of a neat case, because as far as I can tell, he doesn’t accept donations. But I list him here anyway, because I respect him highly.
And by the way, if you know any Christian scholars who are busy getting their undergraduate and graduate degrees, why not fire them a book or two? I have five good friends on Facebook who are working hard on their degrees, and it’s a good thing for us to take an interest in their progress.
UPDATE: Justin Brierley, the force behind the recent Reasonable Faith UK Speaking Tour, writes this in the comments:
Well since we’re in a generous mood… follow the link below to contribute towards funding the production of the videos from the UK Reasonable Faith Tour!
Not a bad idea. Getting the recordings of those debates out there is good work, and deserves funding.
WINTERY KNIGHT 
At the heart of the Gospel is ministry to the poor, the widow, the orphan. It’s the recurring theme of both testaments. There is no such direct command to support apologetics. Besides, – and more importantly – is impossible to give to “apologetics”, since we can only give to PEOPLE. So can we support theolgians and theological students? Yes, of course. Whether it be “a book or two” or covering their college fees. But this is not nor shoudl it be an “either or” situatation. What we SHOULD be considering is to what extent we should be giving to mega-ministries that help the poor. We need a real paragidm-shift on this, because many within our congregations suffer while rich minsitries get richer. Not good! Likewise, micro-projects that bring aid and the gospel to others far and near struggle for any funding at all, while the large outreaches have massive overheads to keep fed. So let’s focus on supporting the micro-projects, whether they be within the field of orthodoxy or orthopraxy.
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Well, there is the admonition to defend the faith in 1 Peter 3:15, 2 Cor 10:5, etc. And then there is the evidence from Phillipians 4 about how people supported Paul’s ministry. You’ll recall that it was Paul’s custom to reason with unbelievers in public places. The only effective ministry for Christianity is the one that emphasizes truth, not feelings. And that’s why we give to apologists – they are the effective evangelists of our day.
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May I point out the obvious and lets stay in the scripture.
Paul was a apostle (apostolos – a ambassador with miraculous power). Are there any apologists today with “miraculous power”?
Paul spoke only once as a apologist to a public crowd about the existence of God in Acts 17 and never, never never again.
After that he went to to the synagoge and the temple( preached Christ crucified 1 Corinthians 1:23 & 1 Corinthians 2:2 and every other scripture – he was in the temple).
The original Kingdom message of John the Baptist, Christ, and the apostles, was repentance, baptism, and coming wrath due to the coming of the reign of God on the earth ( the original gospel).
In terms of giving – pure religion is giving to the poor and widows. Christ never asked for money, nor did the apostles, however it does mention about giving double honor to those who teach ( ie teachers).
In addition, he mentioned the giving to the poor in Galatians 2:10 and Romans Romans 15:26
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
In addition, 1 Cor 9 sums up Paul sums it up nicely…”What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it.”
Counterpoint, if we are to see our brother in need – we are to help them as well as there is record of the body giving to the apostles so they could give to the poor.
Allow me to suggest to read the scriptures and ask for direction.
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Mike Singer wrote:
“May I point out the obvious and lets stay in the scripture.”
You’re telling us what scripture says based largely on the work of textual scholars and other individuals who have labored to produce your copies of the Bible. They rely on the same sort of reasoning and evidence that apologists appeal to.
You write:
“Paul was a apostle (apostolos – a ambassador with miraculous power). Are there any apologists today with ‘miraculous power’?”
There are many miracles in the world today, including ones performed by, or in the lives of, Christians. See Craig Keener’s recent two-volume work, Miracles (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Academic, 2011).
And your claim about Paul is a historical claim. We would evaluate it as we evaluate other historical assertions. Paul’s original audience could rely on their experience of his miracles or early reports about what he had done. We today are further removed from Paul’s miracles, so we rely on other forms of historical evidence to conclude that the miracles occurred. That underscores, rather than undermining, the importance of apologetics in the modern world.
You write:
“Paul spoke only once as a apologist to a public crowd about the existence of God in Acts 17 and never, never never again.”
Your qualifiers don’t make sense. Apologetics isn’t just about “the existence of God” (a subject Paul also addresses elsewhere, like in Romans 1), and apologetics isn’t just done for “public crowds”. Paul frequently reasons with people and presents evidence for his conclusions (Acts 17:2-3, 18:4, etc.). He frequently appeals to fulfilled prophecy, witnesses to the resurrection, his own miracles, and other forms of evidence.
You write:
“After that he went to to the synagoge and the temple( preached Christ crucified 1 Corinthians 1:23 & 1 Corinthians 2:2 and every other scripture – he was in the temple).”
Those synagogues weren’t Christian synagogues. Even if they were, so what? Apologetics can be done in both Christian and non-Christian environments. What’s the relevance of Paul’s location when he did these things?
And “Christ crucified” involved evidential concepts, like whether Jesus was the prophesied Christ and whether He was crucified. The crucifixion was a historical event involving a historical individual. Peter, Paul, and the others who were conveying the Christian message to the world of their day were largely appealing to historical evidence outside of the Bible, such as what the Jewish people had seen (Acts 2:22) and what was known to Gentiles about recent events (Acts 26:26). The earliest Christians didn’t have what we today call the New Testament. Even after they did, they continued to sometimes appeal to extra-Biblical evidence, as we see in the many patristic appeals to extra-Biblical eyewitnesses, government records, etc.
You go on to cite Biblical passages about caring for the poor and such. I’ve addressed those in my response to John Ruffle elsewhere in this thread. I’ll add that we need to gauge our efforts according to the context in which we live. The ancient world didn’t have an equivalent to the large system of charity that we have today. As I mentioned in my post that Wintery Knight quoted above, our giving in the modern world isn’t just done through private efforts. Many trillions of dollars are spent by governments as well. We should still be concerned about the poor, widows, and others suffering, but we need to keep in mind that today’s world already has much more of a structure in place for caring for such people than the ancient world did. Because of factors like an increase in our access to information in the modern world, we could say that the need for apologetics has increased while the need for the most common charitable work has been decreasing. That’s not true in every context, but it is largely the case.
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Couple of points stand out.
Where is apologetics mentioned in the NT ?
From what I read this is the only argument that is present on the existence of God is 17:17-32. If there are others – please point them out.
Acts 17:17 -32 “And taking hold of him, they led him to the Areopagus….And hearing of a resurrection of the dead, some indeed mocked; and others said, We will hear you again concerning this.”
I’ll ask the same question again – are there any apologists today with “miraculous power”? ie Romans 15:19 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God
In regards to addressing the needs of the poor – I suggest rereading about Lazarus and the rich man – Luke 16:20-31 ( which is a true story). The rich man was in Hades not because he didn’t break the Jewish feasts or Torah in regards to the tithing. He was in Hades because he saw a poor person in need and didn’t help them which is against Torah (Deuteronomy 15:7) and the NT teachings as well.
Another incidence is Corneilus in Acts 10- he gave to the poor as well as local temple. His alms came up as a memorial before God.
God loves the poor – the Kingdom belongs to them. Imo, it is far easier for a poor person to accept the gospel than a rich one ( remember the rich young ruler and James 2:5-6, 2 Corinthians 9:9, Romans 15:26, Mark 10:21,Mark 12:42-43,Mark 14:5,Mark 14:7,Luke 4:18,Luke 6:20,Luke 7:22 ,Luke 14:13.
In addition, when Mother Theresa passed, the secular pressed mourned her passing including the Jews. Why ? Because she represented “true religion” vs. the passing of Jerry Fallwell – nobody missed him.
In regards to the synagogues – they were JEWISH ! Christ and Paul taught in the temple !!!! They came after Christ and followed HIM. Why do think practicing Jews don’t accept Christianity beside Rom 9 & 10 ? There is no real witness of Christ that shows holiness, righteousness, and obedience to God ( Btw, I am Jewish by birth).
The real deal is seen when the unsaved say “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his path” as in Is 2.
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Mike Singer,
You’ve repeated your comments on Acts 17, apologetics, and Paul’s miracles without interacting with what I said about those subjects in my first response to you. You need to go back to my earlier reply and respond to what I wrote there.
You write:
“In regards to addressing the needs of the poor – I suggest rereading about Lazarus and the rich man – Luke 16:20-31 ( which is a true story). The rich man was in Hades not because he didn’t break the Jewish feasts or Torah in regards to the tithing. He was in Hades because he saw a poor person in need and didn’t help them which is against Torah (Deuteronomy 15:7) and the NT teachings as well.”
All that you’re doing is citing another passage about caring for the poor. Since I haven’t denied that such passages exist, and I haven’t been arguing that we shouldn’t care for the poor, your citation of Luke 16 is insignificant in this context. You’re not making much of an effort to advance the discussion.
You go on:
“Another incidence is Corneilus in Acts 10- he gave to the poor as well as local temple. His alms came up as a memorial before God.”
And he wasn’t saved until he later heard the gospel and believed (Acts 11:14). Similarly, Acts 2:5 refers to devout Jews, yet also tells us that they needed to be saved (Acts 2:37-38). Giving to the poor is one good work among others. It isn’t a means of attaining justification. And the fact that it’s a good work doesn’t tell us how much we should donate to ministries that do such things as compared to how much we give to ministries that do other good works. You aren’t making much of an effort to address the subject of this thread.
You write:
“In addition, when Mother Theresa passed, the secular pressed mourned her passing including the Jews. Why ? Because she represented ‘true religion’ vs. the passing of Jerry Fallwell – nobody missed him.”
Why should we think that “the secular press” makes its judgments based on “true religion”? And how would you know that “nobody missed” Jerry Falwell? Before you pass further judgment on Falwell, I suggest that you make more of an effort to look into the charitable work he did, make more of an effort to consider the other good works he did, and read James 2:10-13.
The Biblical passage you’re apparently alluding to is James 1:27. But that passage refers to more than caring for the poor. And it isn’t claiming to give an exhaustive definition of what religion ought to be. Rather, James is addressing some aspects of religion that are relevant to his context. You have to combine that passage with the rest of what James wrote and the rest of scripture in order to come up with a more complete picture. For example, we learn from Galatians that a person’s view of the doctrine of justification is important. Promoting a false gospel, as Mother Theresa and her denomination have done, is a characteristic of false religion.
You keep citing Biblical passages about caring for the poor. Who denies that such passages exist? What about the hundreds of other Biblical passages about having a correct view of God, praising God, thanking God, prayer, what we believe about the afterlife, etc.? What does it prove for you to keep citing passages about caring for the poor? Nobody’s denying those passages.
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John Ruffle wrote:
“At the heart of the Gospel is ministry to the poor, the widow, the orphan. It’s the recurring theme of both testaments.”
No, it’s not “the recurring theme”. It’s one among others. The Bible is primarily about God, not “the poor, the widow, the orphan”. Caring for such people is an important responsibility of society and an important aspect of the Christian life, but it isn’t “the heart of the Gospel”. People are reconciled to God through the gospel that Jesus summarizes in Luke 18:10-14 and Paul summarizes in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Then works such as giving money to the poor and visiting widows characterize the life of the person who’s been reconciled to God through that gospel. That doesn’t make those works “the heart of the Gospel”, just as being honest, disciplining your children, praying for people, and other good works in the Christian life aren’t “the heart of the Gospel”. The large majority of the Bible discusses subjects like who God is, what He’s doing, and how we should relate to Him and His creation on a wide variety of issues other than what modern charities tend to focus on.
Since the poor, the widow, and the orphan have minds, part of what we should be giving them is apologetics. The prophets reasoned with the poor and other suffering individuals about the evidential significance of fulfilled prophecy. Jesus reasoned with widows, orphans, and the poor about the evidential significance of His prophecy fulfillment, healings, and other miracles. So did the apostles. Are you doing the same? Do modern ministries to people like widows and orphans typically include apologetics? Or do we neglect the minds of the people we minister to?
You write:
“There is no such direct command to support apologetics.”
Aside from the passages Wintery Knight cited in his response to you, we have the fact that humans have minds that do things like reason and seek evidence. We also have hundreds of Biblical passages about the value of knowledge, the value of wisdom, prophecy fulfillment and its evidential value, the function of eyewitness testimony in the founding and authority structure of the church, etc. We have the many Biblical passages that tell us to look for the fulfillment of prophecy, rebuke those who fail to recognize its fulfillment, such as those who failed to recognize that Jesus was the Messiah, etc. We also have the historical practice of the earliest Christians, as reflected in the apologetic efforts discussed in Acts and the apologetic dimensions of the early patristic literature, for example. As Richard Bauckham has documented in his Jesus And The Eyewitnesses (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 2006), the early Christian literature frequently appeals to ancient historiographical concepts and terminology. It also frequently appeals to other evidential concepts, like fulfilled prophecy. Christianity is a historical religion. It involves historical revelation delivered through historical individuals. And the study of history involves philosophical issues and has philosophical implications. Science is involved and implicated as well. You can’t live the Christian life for long without getting involved in matters like philosophy, history, and science.
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Show scripture please…Paul didn’t seem to concerned
Phil 3 For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
I suggest reading 1 Corinthians 1:19-30……”for consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards”
God prefers the meek, lowly, and poor – they are easier to work with and have nothing to loose (Rev 11:3) and they obey Him.
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Mike Singer wrote:
“Show scripture please…Paul didn’t seem to concerned”
About what? I don’t know what subject you’re addressing, but I’ve repeatedly cited Biblical passages that you’ve ignored. I’ve also cited books that address the Biblical evidence in depth, like Richard Bauckham’s work on eyewitness testimony.
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I think the title of your post is a bit of a false dichotomy. There’s a third option: both! And in fact these ministries can work hand-in-hand. Just look at how pro-life ministries combine apologetics with practical help for women in crisis pregnancies.
But I heartily agree that apologetics ministry needs more support. Thanks for bringing this up.
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Well since we’re in a generous mood… follow the link below to contribute towards funding the production of the videos from the UK Reasonable Faith Tour!
http://www.bethinking.org/what-is-apologetics/introductory/helping-fund-the-reasonable-faith-tour.htm
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Adding this celebrity comment to the main post.
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Ironically, Mike Singer has to do apologetics in the very process of demoting apologetics. When he tries to defend charity as the Christian priority, when he tries to make a case for his position, he’s doing apologetics. It’s just that he’s trying to prove something different.
In addition, telling Christians that charity ought to be their priority, even if that were true, takes for granted that you have Christians in the first place.
But without apologetics, you don’t win as many converts to the faith, and you don’t retain as many.
Finally, reducing the true faith to charity is a classically leftward move that eventually empties the church. At that point, charity is co-opted by secular charities like the United Way.
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Lol….. Please dont interpret as not tithing or giving. Quite the contrary…. It is simple – be a good steward and pray to God on where to give. The following is based on scriptures, giving to the poor “believers” or other Christians in need is a safe bet as seen the OT / NT ( ie James 2:15-16 and 1:27)
Again, Christ and the apostles preached the coming of God’s kingdom not the “proof of God”. The gospel is the same as has been through history ( Matt 24:14, Rev 14:6, etc). Most people will accept Christ as Savior but accepting as Lord and being the demands of discipleship is a entirely different matter as it totally demeaning. This is ignored – it is accept Jesus in your heart and you will go to heaven (not scriptural). What good is profession of Christ if the person isn’t made known of the demands – Jesus said to “count the cost”. Sorry dude, I have only heard that in ONE church in my life. ONE.
I do know that God loves the poor and he who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done (pro 19).
Again when I read the scriptures – I dont see apologetics to the outsiders. I do see a incredible amount of apologetics to the body of Christ as mentioned in the epistles. You might want to take a look at Eph 4:11-16. – the gifts and ministries is for building up of the body. It is a body and not one part is more important than the other.
What John 6:44 – No one comes to Christ unless the Father draws Him… No one… In addition, If any man comes to Christ He will not cast Him out – both are true. Christ or the apostles didn’t go around seeking converts or ask for money. It should be VERY OBVIOUS GOD DOESN’T NEED MONEY- He let Judas ( the thief) carry the money knowing fully well what was going on. Does that mean anything ?
By presenting the existence of God ( if that is your calling – go for it). But to go to the ends of earth to proves and misrepresenting the demands is a gross waste of time.
Take a look a the following:
Luke 9:1-6, Matt 6:2-4 & 25-34, and Matt 10:5-15 (Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay.Acquire no gold nor silver nor copper for your belts, no bag for your journey, nor two tunics nor sandals nor a staff, for the laborer deserves his food.)
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Hey Mike, I just want to reiterate that I disagree with you on practically everything! I’ll just step in to say that Paul uses apologetics with the Greeks in Acts 17, and Paul appreciates the financial gifts of the Philippians in Phil 4.
Regarding the “never,ever,ever again” that you claim about Paul’s apologetics in Acts 17, the text clearly says that engaging with people was Paul’s custom and that some of the people who heard him expected him to speak again to them.
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Reading through this conversation, I think it’s important to note how important and how great Paul’s lecture was in Acts 17.
“34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.”
Who was Dionysius the Areopagite? He was a judge of the Areopagus! That’s huge. A judge was converted to Christianity from the arguments given. This men went on to become the Bishop of Athens as well.
Who is Damaris? “Damaris lived in Athens in the mid 1st century. She embraced the Christian faith following the speech of Paul of Tarsus, given in front of the Athenian Areopagus. She might have been of high social status because only such women were allowed to assist the Areopagus meetings. This may be the reason why her name has been especially recorded.” Wikipedia
Paul’s defense of God was not a failure at all, it was a success.
I also want to point out as another commenter did: apologetics is not only a defense for the existence of God, there are many flavors of defenses used in apologetics; Paul is defended Christianity in his epistles against those who “preach another gospel.” To say apologetics isn’t important is to say doctrine isn’t important, which then what follows? Reading the bible isn’t important. As another commenter said, “Mike is using apologetics to try and show apologetics *isn’t* important.”
Another point of interest: John uses apologetics to defend the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth in the beginning his first letter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_the_Areopagite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damaris
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Mike Singer wrote:
“Again when I read the scriptures – I dont see apologetics to the outsiders.”
You keep ignoring the contrary evidence we’ve given you. Again, the prophets, the apostles, and other Biblical figures repeatedly appeal to the evidence of fulfilled prophecy, the evidence of eyewitness testimony, etc. when addressing unbelievers. In Isaiah 40-53, for example, Isaiah appeals to fulfilled prophecy and other evidence while addressing the nations and unrepentant Israel. Jesus frequently appeals to the evidence of fulfilled prophecy and other miracles (Matthew 11:20-24, John 10:37-38). God used the apostles’ miracles to testify to the truthfulness of their message (Acts 14:3). You yourself have cited Romans 15:19, which refers to Paul’s miracles. He performed such miracles in the context of bringing the gospel to people who weren’t yet believers. The miracles served as confirming evidence. The gospels and other New Testament documents often appeal to eyewitness testimony and other historiographic concepts common in their day, as documented in the book by Richard Bauckham that I cited earlier. Etc.
Even if we were to ignore the sort of evidence I’ve cited above, why should we think that the burden of proof rests with those who are pro-apologetics? As I mentioned earlier, we all have minds that reason and seek after evidence for our beliefs in other contexts in life. Why should we think that Christian beliefs are exceptions to that rule? Rather than expecting those who are pro-apologetics to justify their concern for reasoning and evidence, we should expect those who are anti-apologetics to justify their position. They’re the ones who are suggesting some sort of radical discontinuity with the rest of life.
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Even something like Elijah on Mt. Carmel or Moses and Pharaoh counts as apologetics. In those cases, the prophet does the miracles directly “so that they may know for certain”. In other cases, like in Acts 2. Peter will make the appeal to historical events that he did not cause, “so that they may know for certain”.
If I could cause miracles to convince people, then I would. But I can’t. So instead I talk about the Big Bang and the resurrection. And when I speak about them, I try to be convincing – because I do my homework first, like it says to in 1 Pet 3:15. That word “apologia” means a COURT-ROOM style defense. And that takes studying first. Nobody makes a courtroom defense on the fly – it’s just lazy and disrespectful to the client you are defending.
Also, I just want to say that people who do nice things for others without telling them the truth about Jesus are not helping them as much as they could be. The main thing that life is about is telling people the truth about God, with authority. A lot of people who do nice things actually have lousy theology – all kinds of postmodernism, universalism, etc. And that’s because very often, the desire to do nice things is the desire to be liked by outsiders. But when you tell the truth, very often, outsiders will not like you. They killed Jesus, because they didn’t like the truth claims he made – and especially that he was able to substantiate them. He was not a nice guy, first and foremost.
I think the main thing is that Christianity is a faith that is propositional. It requires intellectual assent to propositions like this: “God created the universe” and “Jesus’ death atoned for the sins of mankind”. How do you establish that? By having a happy marriage? By being nice to people? By being healthy and happy? By recycling your aluminium cans and promoting gay marriage? Hell no – anyone can have a happy marriage, etc. but that does nothing to get someone to become a Christian. It’s an intellectual enterprise, you need to use arguments and evidence, and that’s the way it was, is now, and ever shall be. World without end, Amen, as my Anglican pastor George would say.
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Well said & agreed.
On the flip side, to tell people about Jesus (correct theology) and not back it up with good actions and moral character why Christianity in America is sneered at. There is very little difference between the secular and the church. Take a look at Matt 7:21-23.
I am not discounting apologetics at all (bible is full of them). However, every single instance listed Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, Paul etc. They were prophets, apostles, teachers, evangelists, Messiah first and formost who used apologetics.
I just dont see the case for secular arguments for the proof of God in the scriptures. Acts 17 was to distinguish God from the other Gods. Btw, I am not saying it isn’t useful – I just dont see the thrust of ” the proof of God” apologetics used. If I am wrong – please show the scriptures.
Might I suggest there are very very few real prophets, apostles, teachers, and evangelists that are called by Christ ? Those who are called, really called, have a serious anointing(gift) and God will keep them and provide for them ( He pays for what He orders). There are others like Lewis, Nee, and Sundar Singh, Brother Lawrence who offer tremendous insight. Btw, Singh & Brother Lawrence are the least educated but offers more spiritual insight than the other two imo. That is their gift and contribution to the body of Christ and they are eternal witnesses to help us along. None of the above mentioned accepted money for themself- none ( they gave it all away as Sundar Singh did)
In addition, might want to really think about giving to apologists/scholars vs. the poor. Only the Lord took that honor in preparation for His burial.
Please note – I am not discounting apologetics. It is very much needed in the body of Christ. However, there is quite a bit of confusion to who it is directed and the content. Those inside the body and those outside the body. In addition, critical thinking is sorely needed in the body of Christ. Many of your blogs are great – using science to support Christianity / bible as well as prepare for marriage. Strange as this may sound – this should be the role of the church. With this said – I have seen very few churches do this( 2 to date). The majority are more concerned about presenting a “watered down” gospel and collecting for building projects.
To use it outside the body is a evangelist and “God will add” as in Acts 2:47 – And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
To use it inside the the body is a teacher, prophet which is to “build the body”. Prophets are generally “holy men/women” as in John the baptist, Anninas. John went around wearing a camel skin and eating wild honey and locust.
A apostle is a whole different calling all together – they are ambassadors for Christ as in the case of Paul to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews.
Jason – the prophets (Holy men) of the majority OT prophets lead pretty minimal lives (Ezekial, Jeremiah, Elijah, Elisha etc) for the most part. You may want to re-read 2 Kings 5 “As the LORD lives, before whom I stand, I will receive none”, Abraham (Gen 14:23), and Balaams error. As mentioned earlier God pays for what He orders – Always.
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Mike, you may find this passage from 1 Corinthians 9 helpful:
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
This is why we need arguments for those who “don’t have the law” – i.e. those who don’t come from a religious perspective accepting the law of God. And those arguments are more helpful if they come from the frame of reference of the unbeliever and don’t assume the things we assume who are already believers. That’s what Paul means when he says he “became like one not having the law”.
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Oh, great point, Mbelina! You’re like a little Wayne Grudem!
And Paul also quotes non-Christian philosophers to the non-Christians in Acts 16-17 to emphasize where they agree with him.
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:)
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I agree with all of this, thanks Stephen.
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Context dear friend context :) What “gift” was he referring to in Phil 4 ?? What was it for and whom was it for ?
May I suggest reading 1 Cor 16:1-4 & 2 Cor 8 & 9 ( Notice 8:4, 9:12-13).
From what the scriptures say – the gift was a collection for the saints in Jerusalem who were under extreme persecution. This corresponds with Romans 15:26-28… I am going to Jerusalem bringing aid to the saints….pleased to make some contribution for the poor among the saints at Jerusalem. …. have delivered to them what has been collected. History as well as other scriptures show Christians were under extreme persecution.
In regards to Acts 17, there is no record of Paul going back to speak.
When he was before Felix ( Acts 24) – he reasoned about “righteousness”and “self-control” and the “coming judgment”. Before Agrippa in Acts 26 “that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance.”
During this time he lived on his own expense while in Rome- Acts 28:30 & 31 proclaiming ” the Kingdom of God” ( check it out- that is what it says).
In Rome – Paul bore “witness” as commanded in Acts 23:11…. To bear witness is ” martureo” ie testify as one does in a court room. The truth as “you” know it. This was Pauls “style” before the Jews and Agrippa.
May I suggest – God pays for what He orders.
Much like a person does when in a restaurant or a store. The scriptures bears that blessing come to those who bless the saints who are in need. God is a debtor to no one and they will be repaid in this life and the next even if it is a cup of water (Mark 9:41)
As usual WK – great post and blessings to you and you family during CHRISTmas.
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Btw, I do agree that Paul was a apologists / scholars / apostle with g( he was the last apostle that received that charge in the scriptures. His apostleship is clearly stated in the greetings of the epistles ie Rom 1:1).
I am not disagreeing with you about Paul being a apologist – I am not aware of ANY apologist / scholars that are apostles. If there are any – please do “show & tell”.
Peace & blessings.
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WK.. could you please define “apologetics” and to whom it is addressed.
A clear definition may be useful.
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This is apologetics:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+26&version=NIV
Note that Festus is an outsider.
The audience is specified in 1 Pet 3:15:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%203:15&version=NIV
Be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope within.
And I know that the authorship of 2 Tim is disputed, but check this out:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+4%3A1-5&version=NIV
When you want to be persuasive everywhere else in life, from math to science to policy to finances, you always use evidence and arguments. Why should Christianity be any different? If we really cared about God, we would do what works.
And apologetics works:
https://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/a-look-at-how-a-former-skeptic-changed-his-mind-about-gods-existence/
Quote:
Being nice and sounding nice doesn’t prove anything about the world out there. (Although you should be nice and sound nice when you present your arguments and evidence – 1 Pet 3:15 says to do that)
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Asking us to prooftext apologetics is like asking us to prooftext evangelism or discipleship. Apologetics is a type of evangelism, a type of discipleship.
When, in Acts, the Apostles reason from Messianic prophecy, that’s both apologetics and evangelism.
When the author of Hebrews argues with congregants about not abandoning the faith, that’s apologetics and discipleship.
Quite a few NT epistles defend the true faith against false teachers. That’s apologetics.
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Well said and true…. Remember the current blog – “Should Christians give money to help the poor or to apologists and scholars? ”
My case is there is plenty of scripture in OT/ NT stating we are to give to the poor. I dont see any scriptures of giving to apologists and scholars? In addition, Gibbons pointed out ( btw a atheist) that Christians turned the dregs ( criminals/ prostitutes ) of society into productive citizens and this has never been replicated by any social program. How was this accomplished in the early church ? Lol… Persecution, righteous behavior, and works of power. They didnt have NT rememe
Pure and undefiled religion isnt seen today in America. There is plenty of doctrine and a church on every corner but no testimony or righteousness that gives glory to God. To sum it up – talk is cheap – character, integrity, truthfulness, ethics is rarely seen but when it is – it brings “light”. It is much easier to write about how to be a Christian than it is to live it.
With this said – this is where I will give kudos to WK. His testimony(ie story) of remaining chaste til marriage is something that is sorely needed today in the church. There are very few real “Christians” who keep themselves pure. In addition, his arguments for doing so are scripturally, science, and social science based and sound. May I suggest to bring someone into Christianity and then proceed to fornicate and churches allow people to attend that “live together” is a mockery of Christianity. Nice testimony – Bravo !!!! Paul has a couple of things to say about this. If you havent figured it out by now and given the state of our country – it is due to the apostasy in the Christian churches !
Using WK argument of Acts 26 – Paul gave his testimony / story to Agrippa ( who was familiar and believed the prophets vs. 26-28). Go back and read his presentation and compare it to Acts 17 ). Acts 26 was Pauls life his “testimony” and a strong argument – this corresponds with ie 2 Cor 3:3 “You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.” Talk is cheap – the real testimony is “seen” and demonstrated in power ( that could living a pure and holy life – which indicates a real relationship with Jesus)
Using WK’s 2nd scripture of 2 Tim and getting back to the original blog of the argument whether to give to the poor or scholars / apologists. 1 Tim 5:7-10 has elderly widows then pastors for receiving honor – check it out.
Using Paul as a example to give to a apologist/scholar as a example doesn’t work nor is it scriptural. He was a apostle 1st and foremost. This is how he adressed his letters as was his calling. Did he use arguments and was he a scholar – of course ! May I suggest his testimony was his “seen life”.
In addition, I dont see any scriptures asking for money for himself – only for the poor as previously stated in Cor & Phil. He worked compared to the other apostles and took care of his own expenses as previously stated – this is further supported by Acts 18:3 “because he was of a their trade, he took lodgings with them, and worked with them; for by their trade they were tent-makers.” Paul worked as a “tentmaker” ( lol – God has a sense of humor).
Again – I am not against critical thinking or apologetics using a secular argument secular apologetics is your gift then do it by all means. To place apologist at the same level as a apostle is again not scriptural.
All apostles are apologist but not all apologists are apostles – that should be pretty clear.
A book was mentioned in regard to this – I dont own it. Any names would be appreciated.
But to place giving to apologists/scholars above the poor,widows, and orphans is unscriptural and on thin ice unless otherwise directed of the Lord.
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Mike Singer says:
“Again – I am not against critical thinking or apologetics using a secular argument secular apologetics is your gift then do it by all means. To place apologist at the same level as a apostle is again not scriptural.”
Now you’re moving the goalpost. This wasn’t a question of putting an uninspired apologist on “the same level” as an apostle, but documenting the practice of apologetics among apostles and NT writers. That supplies NT precedent.
Moreover, your argument either proves too much or too little. By your logic, we shouldn’t pay pastors or evangelists, for that would be putting an uninspired preacher on “the same level” as an apostle.
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I see it differently and stick with the scripture vs. “tradition”.
As I said earlier presenting a strong case is needed and is a component. I sincerely hope that makes sence1 Cor 4:4-5 show that – For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.
WK blog provides excellent arguments, studies,
I dont see ANY scriptures presenting to a case to atheists – sorry to say. If so, provide chapter and verse. If that is your “gift” and calling – go for it !! Everybody has a gift even if it making clothes like Dorcas. If it is Gods will to present the gospel as Paul in Jerusalem and Rome – then do it all your strength. God spoke to Paul thought a prayer and further confirmed with a prophet.
Again, I dont see any scripture to build buildings ( Remember the Mount of Transfiguration ? Peter wanted to make 3 tabernacles. That is a “mans” typical response. May I suggest a a more appropriate response would have “wow” or “cool”. His request was ignored by Christ and answered by the Father “This is my Son – listen to Him”
You mentioned by my logic.. Lol… I provided scripture – as mentioned previously Paul took nothing as a Apostle.
The NT church as mentioned in ACTS 4:32
“And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
In the good ole USA there are plenty of bibles, pastors, churches and everything in between. However, there is NO testimony, let alone miracles. Why is it that Chinese Christians dont want help from American churches / gospel ? To be a “Christian” there means something and has a cost to the tune of your life as well as your families.
History shows – the Body of Christ is most effective under persecution. When it became accepted in Rome did it become pagan as well as the gifts and power were lost. God is starting to restore them. If you think I am in error check out Dan 8:25 as well as Rev 11:8-9 on how the witness is destroyed.
Where does it say to pay pastors / evanglelists ? If you have scripture – it would be great to see it.
Peace
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Mike Singer says:
“I dont see ANY scriptures presenting to a case to atheists – sorry to say.”
I don’t see ANY scriptures in which 21st century Canadians or Americans or Australians present the gospel to 21st century atheists living in the New World. I only see commands given to 1st century residents of the Roman Empire. So I guess that you and I can skip evangelism.
“Where does it say to pay pastors / evanglelists ? If you have scripture – it would be great to see it.”
I see you can’t follow your own argument. You indicated that paying apologists put them on the same level as apostles. By parity of argument, paying pastors/evangelists puts them on the same level as apostles.
My argument isn’t predicated on a duty to pay pastors/evangelists. Rather, it’s an argument from analogy, based on your own premise. In future, try to keep track of your own argument.
(Mind you, I could mount an exegetical argument for paid clergy, but that’s a side issue at the moment.)
“To be a “Christian” there means something and has a cost to the tune of your life as well as your families. History shows – the Body of Christ is most effective under persecution.”
Well, that sounds very brave behind the safety of your computer screen. Why don’t you put that into practice by purchasing a ticket to Mecca or N. Korea or Iran and then begin evangelizing the locals. See how far you get.
BTW, when are you going to stop *talking* about our duty to provide for the poor, and lead by example? Why don’t you sell your computer and give the proceeds to the poor?
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Hey guys, I think this is getting a little heated so I want to ask whether it would be possible to bring this to a close and just agree to disagree on this one.
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Sorry WK… Didn’t intend to do this.
Stephen, if you would like to send a “exegetical argument” based on scripture for paid clergy. I would really like to see it.
My email is mykesinger@gmail.com
Thanks to WK for a great blog (as usual) !!!
Peace & Blessings
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Man I missed out! Still, I see your point WK… Apologetics is widely neglected, so to say to us “Give money to further spread the (necessary) work apologists” is a pretty foreign concept to most.
Usually it would result in some kind of arguement (hello!) with people defending valid points like the poor or the orphans…That isn’t something we ignore for the sake of apologists, we must INCLUDE apologists and scholars!
Something to consider.
Thanks WK
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I gave the first response; and there on out it got pretty heated! But good points were made rom a number of viewpoints. May I thus be permited to offer a closing benidiction from words of Scripture? -which I am not offering as a sneaky way to ‘take sides’ on the issue; but rather, a simple meditation to close with from the Apostle Paul the Apologist:
“And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ: until we all attain to the unity of the faith..” – Ephesians 4:11,12,13a, NASB.
Amen.
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