I stayed up late tonight (Monday) listening to the Republican primary debate, so I thought that I would just dump out some links to some old debates on Calvinism and Foreknowledge. The speakers are introduced in the MP3 files.
There are two debates below, but the second one is in two parts.
The first debate
The first debate is all in one MP3 file.
Summary:
- What is Calvinism and why is it important?
- Does God love all people the same way in Calvinism?
- Does God desire the salvation of all people in Calvinism?
- Is the offer of salvation to all people a genuine offer on Calvinism?
- Does Calvinism diminish or augment God’s sovereignty?
- Can God accomplish his will by permitting evil creaturely actions?
- Did Jesus die only for the “chosen”, or for the possibility of salvation for all?
- Does a person’s responding to God’s offer of salvation detract from Gods glory?
- Does our ability to resist God’s grace mean that we are “stronger” than God?
There is a little static in the audio for a few seconds every time they come back from a break, but nothing major. There are no commercials. And the debate is SO worth it, because there are almost no good debates on this topic, although you may be interested in reading the debate between William Lane Craig and Ed Curley.
The second debate
The second debate spans two MP3 files and in this debate, the two participants specifically discuss verses of Scripture that are relevant to the the two views.
Part 1:
The participants discuss the following passages:
- John 6
- Romans 8
- Romans 9
- Ephesians 1
Part 2:
The participants discuss the following passages:
- Luke 13:34-35 (Deuteronomy 5:28-29)
- Ezekiel 18:21-32 (Jeremiah 3:19-20; Ezekiel 22:30-31)
- I John 2:1-2 (2 Pet 2:1)
I didn’t like this second debate as much as the first one.
My view
You can watch a video that describes my view. The only difference between my view and that video is that I do think you can lose your salvation by deliberate, voluntary apostasy. I.e. – the unforgiveable sin of renouncing the Holy Spirit.
WINTERY KNIGHT 
WK – May I point something out in regards to salvation. It occurs at the end not at the start. A couple of points before I start – the main thrust of Christ and the apostles was Kingdom of God and eternal life
Here is some scripture
Lets start off with Rom 10:9 ( the most famous)
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Notice the context “shalt be saved” – doesn’t say you are but “shalt”.
I am going to suggest that salvation is a “process” and back it up with scripture – from there one can decide from there.
He who endures to the end shall be saved ( Matt 24:13)
Narrow is the gate to life and there are few that find it (Matt 7:14)
I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal 5:19 )
To him who overcomes ( Rev 2&3) if we do not overcome – then we do not eat from the tree of life and other promises.
Consider the parable of the sower, the talents,
Looking at Paul’s exhortations which contained warnings that if we did not live righteously there would be severe consequences. Take a look at Galatians and Ephesians that if we believers in Jesus Christ continue to live in the desires of our sinful nature we shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. We shall reap corruption. I would regard that as a serious consequence, wouldn’t you?
The 6th and 8th chapters of the Book of Romans warn us we shall die (not attain to the redemption of our body in the Day of Resurrection) if we continue to practice sinful behavior.
I do not know who wrote the Book of Hebrews. But this Book alone proves that the current teaching of unconditional grace is an error of great magnitude; although there are scholars who attempt to prove, by using principles of the Greek language unfamiliar to most of us, that the passages of Hebrews do not mean what they state clearly.
Bible teachers of today are saying the important thing is that we profess belief in Jesus Christ. Our behavior is almost of no consequence. We are saved by “faith alone.” Of course, the “faith” they are referring to actually is “belief” in a certain theologic position, not the genuine faith of the Prophets and Apostles.
I know now that obedience to Christ and his Apostles is more important than “belief” in Christ, unless by belief we mean obedience to Christ.
Christian teaching today is very destructively in error! It is coming from the one who counseled: “You shall not surely die if you disobey God.”
Further thoughts – two are two distinct groups of people:
1. The body of Christ which is a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9)
2. Saved Nations (Matt 25:31-46) who gain entrance into the Kingdom of God with no knowledge/acceptance of Christ.
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“The only difference between my view and that video is that I do think you can lose your salvation by deliberate, voluntary apostasy. I.e. – the unforgiveable sin of renouncing the Holy Spirit.”
Just a question without a comment, position, or opposition. If that salvation that is lost via apostasy is lost, can it be regained?
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I don’t think so because that is the “unforgivable sin”. I am getting this straight from R.C. Sproul’s radio show – he calls the blaspheming the Holy Spirit the unforgiveable sin.
By the way, can you comment with a few more posts on the Calvinist position? No one explains Calvinism as winsomely as you. I pass by your blog and see them there all the time.
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I am not in a position to judge people, however, I believe in staying on the scripture vs. tradition.
A few questions I have is what about the “outer darkness” as Christ mentioned in His Parables ? Those who knew the Lords will but didn’t do it or the wicked servants ? I am going to suggest it is not that black & white.
Btw, take a look at Rev: 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
The reverse is true- if one doesn’t overcome – then He will blot out his name out of the book of life. This sounds very serious to me. This is how the rest of the promises given to “the Overcomer in Rev 2 & 3. May I suggest “if” is a very big word and a conditional statement.
Here are a couple of scriptures that come to mind and one can draw their own conclusion ( I will mention a few – the scriptures are full of warnings as well as promises):
– 2 Peter 2:20,21
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
– 2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
– The Book of Jude against is in regards to the “ungodly”
– Luke 9:62 …”putting your hand to the plow”
-Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
– Ezekiel 33:11- 19 ( This the summary)
18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
I am going to suggest God is more concerned about “our behavior/response ” when shown the truth is presented than “our theology” as indicated by the scripture of where the “unforgivable sin” is mentioned. God doesn’t change, when Israel obeyed His laws He blessed them and when they didn’t – He went after them.
I think (IMO) God is both merciful and harsh depending on a persons response. To continue in “known sin” past the point where God has shown time after time after time and the person clearly rejects is very dangerous ground and can “terminate” the seed (Christ) that is planted as indicated in the parable of the sower.
Christ teachings are “not easy” and much more demanding than presented ( ie go and sell everything, if your right hand / eye causes you to sin etc..). It is a much more “all out” effort as indicated by Paul as indicated in:
Phil 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead
“If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. ”
Really think about this – this was Paul at the end of life….Whoa !!!!!
As mentioned before, I let you draw your own conclusion .
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Speaking as a confessional Lutheran, friends DON’T let friends, go Calvinist! ;-)
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I think the Lutheran position mainly leaves more in the realm of mystery. It seems considerably closer to Calvinism than Arminianism. (BTW, I’m also formerly Lutheran… spent most of my life in Lutheran churches.) If I’m understanding correctly, the main problems would be ‘double predestination’ or ‘equal ultimacy’ views, which most Calvinists are also opposed to.
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The passages in Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-31, about people losing their salvation and getting no second chance, have bothered me, because my one son, who prayed for salvation when he was about 12 and I know was touched by the Holy Spirit a couple of years later, turned his back on the Lord in his late teens and is now anti-theist. I suspect he didn’t have a full understanding of grace and came under condemnation, so found it “easier” just to chuck all he had believed. He said afterwards that he “felt so free”. Whether this means he wasn’t really “enlightened” as Hebrews 6 states, I don’t know. He participates in atheist and sceptic groups where faith is ridiculed. I don’t know whether he has actually blasphemed the Holy Spirit, which Jesus said was the unforgivable sin. I know other people have had children who have gone off the rails spiritually and morally but have later come back to the Lord in repentance. I have to believe the Lord can bring my son back to repentance, otherwise I’m wasting my time praying for him. I wonder what those, who say he is now damned forever, think about this? Or do we serve a God of mercy and grace and “second chances”?
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