I am tempted to say that this is the best podcast I have ever heard on the Unbelievable show. Do anything you have to do in order to listen to this podcast.
Details:
Prof Robert Gagnon has become a well-known voice advocating the traditional biblical view on sexuality. In a highly charged show he debates the scriptural issues on sexuality with Jayne Ozanne, the director of Accepting Evangelicals who came out as gay earlier this year.
If you can only listen for 15 minutes, then start at 49 minutes in and listen from there.
The following summary is rated MUP for made-up paraphrase. Reader discretion is advised.
Summary:
Intro:
- Speaker introductions
- Gagnon: scholars who support gay marriage agree that the Bible doesn’t support it
- Gagnon: scholars who support gay marriage agree Jesus taught male-female marriage
- Ozanne: I went to the hospital because I was sick from trying to suppress my gay desires
- Ozanne: Doctors told me that I would die if I didn’t act on my gay desires
- Ozanne: I decided to reinterpret the Bible to fit with my gay desires
- Ozanne: According to my new interpretation, Jesus actually supports my gay desires
Segment 1: Genesis
- Ozanne: In Genesis the Bible says that Adam needs a woman to complete him
- Ozanne: I reinterpret this to mean that Adam needed a “complementarian human being”
- Ozanne: Genesis doesn’t say whether Eve was complemented by Adam in that chapter
- Ozanne: It’s not critical that men are complemented by women, a man could complement a man
- Ozanne: Genesis 2 doesn’t talk about children, it’s all about adult needs from a relationship
- Gagnon: Genesis 2 has never been interpreted that way in all of history
- Gagnon: Genesis 2 language specifically implies a human being who is opposite/different
- Gagnon: Genesis 2 language translates to complement or counterpart
- Gagnon: Genesis as a whole teaches that the sexuality is for male and female natures
- Gagnon: The extraction of something from the man that is given to the woman is complementarian
- Ozanne: I think that people can be complementary outside of male-female Genesis language
- Ozanne: I don’t want to discuss specific words and texts and Greek meanings
- Gagnon: the text has always been read and interpreted to support male/female complementarity
- Gagnon: the male-female nature argument is made because the two natures are complementary
- Ozanne: the text was interpreted by patriarchal males who treated women like property, it’s biased
- Ozanne: what is important to me is how Christ interprets Genesis (?? how does she know that?)
- Ozanne: I am passionate about my interpretation of Scripture which supports my gay desires
- Gagnon: just because a person is passionate about their interpretation it doesn’t make it right
- Gagnon: I am not arguing for the male-female view based on passion, but on scholarship, evidence and history
- Ozanne: both sides are equally passionate about their interpretations (?? so both are equally warranted?)
- Ozanne: the real question is why God “allowed” two different interpretations of Scripture
Segment 2: Is homosexuality a sin?
- Gagnon: Jesus affirmed traditional sexual morality, which forbids homosexuality
- Gagnon: Jesus teaches that marriage is male-female, and limited to two people
- Gagnon: No one in history has interpreted the Bible to say that homosexuality was not immoral
- Ozanne: Jesus came to bring life, and that means he supports homosexuality
- Ozanne: I was dying, and embracing my gay desires allowed me to live, so Jesus approves of me
- Ozanne: God says “I am who I am” and that means he approves of me doing whatever I want
- Ozanne: There is an imperative to be who I am, and that means embracing my gay desires
- Gagnon: Jesus argued that the twoness of the sexual bond is based on the twoness of the sexes
- Gagnon: Jesus did not come to gratify people’s innate desires, he called people to repent of sin
- Gagnon: Jesus did reach out to sinners but he never condoned the sins they committed
- Gagnon: Jesus’ outreach to tax collectors collecting too much and sexual sinners is the same: STOP SINNING
- Ozanne: I don’t think that Romans 1 is talking about homosexuality
- Ozanne: I think it’s talking about sexual addiction, not loving, committed gay relationships
- Ozanne: Paul was condemning pederasty in Romans 1, not loving, long-term, consensual sexual relationships between gay adults
- Gagnon: nothing in the passage limits the condemnation to pederasty
- Gagnon: the passage was never interpreted to be limited to pederasty in history
- Gagnon: rabbis and church fathers knew about committed two-adult same-sex relationships, and said they were wrong
- Gagnon: the argument for marriage is based on the broad two-nature argument, with no exceptions
- Gagnon: the condemnation is not limited to exploitative / coercive / lustful / uncommitted relationships
- Gagnon: even pro-gay scholars agree the passage cannot be interpreted Ozanne’s way (he names two)
Segment 3: The showdown (49:00)
- Ozanne: I don’t care how many pages people have written on this
- Ozanne: God says that “the wisdom of the wise I will frustrate” so you can’t use scholars, even pro-gay scholars, to argue against my passionate interpretation
- Ozanne: I am not interested in the text or history or scholarship or even pro-gay scholars who agree with you
- Ozanne: what decides the issue for me is my mystical feelings about God’s love which makes my sexual desires moral
- Ozanne: you are certain that this is wrong, but your view does not “give life” to people
- Ozanne: your scholarship and historical analysis is “a message of death” that causes teenagers to commit suicide (= you are evil and a meany, Robert)
- Ozanne: “I pray for you and your soul” (= opposing me will land you in Hell) and “I hope that listeners will listen with their hearts” (?? instead of their minds?)
- Ozanne: you can prove anything you want with research, even two mutually exclusive conclusions, so you shouldn’t rely on scholarship and research since it could be used to prove my view as well
- Ozanne: instead of relying on research, you should rely on your heart and your feelings about God’s love to decide what the Bible teaches about sexual morality
- Gagnon: you are distorting the gospel in order to make your case
- Gagnon: attacking my “certainty” is an ad hominem attack to cover your dismissmal of the scholarship and history
- Gagnon: you distort the gospel to make it seem like Christ just wants us to get what we want, when we want it, with who we want it with
- Gagnon: Christ calls us to take up our cross, to lose our lives and to deny ourselves
- Gagnon: you have a notion of what “fullness of life” is, but it’s not reflective of the gospel
- Gagnon: Paul’s life was much more troubling than yours, mine or anyone else around here
- Gagnon: Paul was beaten, whipped, stoned, poorly sheltered, poorly clothed, poorly fed, shipwrecked, and anxious for his churches
- Gagnon: on your view, he should have been miserable and angry with God all the time
- Gagnon: but instead Paul was constantly thankful and rejoicing to be able to suffer with Jesus and look forward to the resurrection
- Gagnon: I have suffered too, but the suffering we go through never provides us with a license to violate the commandments of God
- Ozanne: “the ultimate thing is what people feel God has called them to”
- Ozanne: My goal right now is to tell young people that homosexuality is fine so they don’t commit suicide
- Ozanne: the view that homosexuality is wrong is “evil and misguided”
- Gagnon: the greater rates of harm in the gay community are intrinsic to homosexual unions, not caused by external disapproval of homosexuality
Segment 4: Concluding statements
- Gagnon: gay male relationships on average have more sex partners and more STDs
- Gagnon: female relationships on average have shorter-length relationships and more mental issues
- Gagnon: the greater rates of harm are because there is no complementarity / balance in the relationships
- Gagnon: everyone has some disappointment or suffering in their lives that hurts them, and that they are tempted to break the rules to fix, but we should not break the rules in order to be happy
- Ozanne: both sides are passionate, so no one can be right, and evidence proves nothing
- Ozanne: only feelings about “what God is doing” can allow us to decide what counts as sin or not
- Ozanne: the main thing that is at stake here is to make people like us, not to decide what the Bible says about sin
- Ozanne: my message to people is to do whatever you want, and ignore mean people who don’t affirm you
- Ozanne: we should be more opposed to mean people who make non-Christians feel unloved than about doing what the Bible says
WINTERY KNIGHT 
The one thing that stands out to me in listening to this podcast is just how incredibly resistant Jayne Ozanne is to actual thought. She demonstrates that she doesn’t have a belief, she has a mantra that she chants over and over (“My libido is more important than Christ’s teaching!”) so she can focus on it, rather than examining her sin. She twists the world around her to avoid facing the fact that she knows full well that she’s an unrepentant sinner. If she didn’t know she was an unrepentant sinner, she wouldn’t lie so obviously.
To put her argument in context, imagine a married man who calls himself a Christian, but who refuses to stop regularly sleeping with women who are not his wife. Other than his refusal to repent from his adultery, he leads an exemplary life of “Christian” service to the poor. (Well, except that he runs around preaching that all men should cheat on their wives with similar impunity.)
Would *anyone* say that such a man is genuinely “following Christ” or “obeying the scriptures?”
Slubgob and Wormwood would be so proud for they only aspire to such levels of satanic mastery.
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Agree 100% with you.
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All I did was read the summary and that was all I needed. This woman is delusional and in no way interested in the truth of the matter, only in the two things women love the most: Arguing for the sake of argument and affirming herself. No one should ever give her the time of day for serious discussion. I would instead try to reach those whom she reaches with her false and deadly “interpretation”, who might be, at least, seeking truth and be more open to actual learning.
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You should listen to her speak the crazy in her own words.its really interesting to understand that these are the people who are passing the Equality Act, and making dissent against their irrational views ILLEGAL. We just elected this woman, in effect, and handed her the keys to the legal system to destroy anyone who disagrees with her.
That’s all the LGBT agenda is – what she says in this debate.
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What’s really sad is that there are churches that will receive her and receive her twisted gospel as new revelation. Absolutely abhorrent and satanic.
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Yes. There’s an evidential case to be made against telling young people to follow the LGBT agenda. But rather than make that case. The church has decided that their job is to feel good and be liked. Theylll take the lead on promoting anything that makes them look virtuous, rather than read books by Ryan T. Anderson or Jeffrey Satinover. To know how to make a case for what they are supposed to be defending according to the Bible.
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They have turned from being “fishers of men” to trying to be “traps of men”. Instead of going out and harvesting they hope to entice people to come in, but they forget that the church is not a place for the unsaved but for the saved, the members of the body. Instead of making members of the body and bringing them in they bring in foreign agents, undecided about this whole christianity thing, but they enjoy the company and mental stimulation. They MIGHT accept christ, if it weren’t for this stinging sensation in their sin. If that would just go away they could certainly get on board with this whole church thing. It gets brought up and the church, now a business because they have 10k in monthly expenses, finds that if it just folds a little they can get so many more people in the seats and that, of course, means more TITHES!!!
Of course this is probably more on the non-aggressive end of things. Certainly the enemy has foreign agents that are more than happy to invade a weakened church and twist it to accept scripture-thru-culture rather than scripture straight. The weakening of men in the church and, possibly, the entire structure of modern churches makes it all the more easy.
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That, WK, is exactly right. It is important to listen to her voice as she’s lying. There’s something absolutely demonic about the tenor, the smug certainty, the condescension, the disguising of evil that is an integral part of her delivery that is absolutely chilling. It is literally what I imagine arguing with Satan would be like.
This is a woman who does not share a common moral foundation with the rest of us. She doesn’t agree with any restraints on how she acts or argues. She will reach the conclusion her libido and her narcissism requires, with no compunction about lying, deceiving, slandering, historical inaccuracy, unreason, and use of false offense.
Frankly, I don’t care that she is living in sin and has chosen Satan as her eternal reward for that. I can’t stop her from making that choice. What I do care about, is her sociopathic insistence that *we’re the wrong, crazy, spiteful, liars* for insisting on the truth.
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Posted on FB. I’m not off-topic when I say gays are among the most miserable-feeling people in the world. Even in places and religions where it’s accepted they still tend to drugs, alcoholism and other forms of suicide. What she has done is taught and is teaching an apostasy common enough in Jesus’ day, that gay activities are fine.
We now face something terrible, same sex rape is growing more common. With is, suicide is growing more common. Even gays will tell you, being raped is one of the worse experiences. More than 50% of military-related suicides are caused by gay rape. How many teenage boys have been raped, then suicide or dive into drugs and alcohol, crime? It’s hidden from us because the gay agenda is more important to some than a human life.
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