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Why don’t men today talk to women about commitment and marriage?

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Painting:
Painting: “Courtship”, by Edmund Blair Leighton (1888)

I saw this essay from a young woman named Jordana Narin who is explaining how she feels about not being able to talk seriously to a man she chose to have premarital sex with on multiple occasions. She is a radical feminist and has a non-STEM degree in creative writing. The essay was published in the radically leftist New York Times.

First kiss:

I met [a guy] at summer camp in the Poconos at 14, playing pickup basketball by day and talking in the mess hall late into the night. Back home we lived only 30 minutes apart, but I didn’t see him again until 11th grade, when we ran into each other at a Halloween party in a Lower Manhattan warehouse.

[…]Under the muted flashes of a strobe light, we shared our first kiss.

No communication:

We stayed in touch for the rest of high school, mostly by text message.

[…]Every time his name popped up on my phone, my heart raced.

Still, we were never more than semiaffiliated, two people who spoke and loved to speak and kissed and loved to kiss and connected and were scared of connecting.

Where is this relationship going? This boy has no job and no savings and no proven record of steady work – and therefore he cannot afford to marry anyone. Why is she even talking to a man who cannot afford to marry her? He is not able to marry her, and handle getting her pregnant.

More:

Two years after our first kiss, we were exchanging “I’ve missed you” messages again. It was a brisk Friday evening in our first semesters of college when I stepped off a train and into his comfortable arms.

He had texted weeks earlier on Halloween (technically our anniversary) to ask if I would visit. We had not talked since summer, and I was trying to forget him. We had graduated from high school into the same inexpressive void we first entered in costume, where an “I’ve missed you” was as emotive as one got.

Long gaps in between text messages – they have nothing to talk about, and there is no purpose to the relationship.  This is the man she chose. Nevertheless, they are away from their parents, and so she had sex with him, choosing to lose her virginity to a man she was not married to.

And then:

Naïvely, I had expected to gain clarity, to finally admit my feelings and ask if he felt the same. But I couldn’t confess, couldn’t probe. Periodically I opened my mouth to ask: “What are we doing? Who am I to you?” He stopped me with a smile, a wink or a handhold, gestures that persuaded me to shut my mouth or risk jeopardizing what we already had.

On the Saturday-night train back to Manhattan, I cried. Back in my dorm room, buried under the covers so my roommates wouldn’t hear, I fell asleep with a wet pillow and puffy eyes.

The next morning I awoke to a string of texts from him: “You get back OK?” “Let’s do it again soon :)”

So my question for you is this: should a woman who has recreational sex with a jobless man she barely knows expect to have real relationships, including a marriage relationship?

There’s an interview that goes with it on the radically leftist NPR web site, but I saved a copy of the MP3 file here in case it disappears.

In the interview, she says:

“Everyone in college uses Tinder,” she said, referring to the wildly popular dating and hook-up app. “You can literally swipe right and find someone just to hang out for the night. 

And:

“In a different time, my grandparents, my great grandparents, they might have thought they were missing out on casual sex. But since my generation has been saddled down with that, we kind of look to the past and say well, wasn’t that nice. I think both are optimal. I’m a huge feminist, and I think women should be able to do whatever they want to do. If a woman wants to have tons of casual sex, she totally should. But I think that there should be the option. And they shouldn’t be gendered, women and men. But there should be the option of being in a relationship.”

Right. Young women like her accept radical feminism, which basically means that they think that the traditional path to marriage must be avoided, because it’s “sexist” and “controlling”. Chastity is sexist. Stay at home wife is sexist. Stay at home motherhood is sexist. She believes that women should prioritize recreational sex and career, marry later, and continue her career by placing the children in daycare and public schools. Any attempt by a marriage-minded man to get her to stop drinking, being promiscuous, having a career, and giving the kids to strangers is “sexist” and “controlling”. Is radical feminism a path to relationships and marriage?

How should marriage-minded men perceive a woman’s past choices to have premarital sex?

Consider this story from the Ottawa Sun about a woman who didn’t want to say no to sex right now, but wanted to get married “some day”:

A New York woman is facing charges after police say she lied about being raped by two football players at a party to get sympathy from a prospective love interest.

Nikki Yovino, 18, has been charged with falsely reporting an incident and tampering with or fabricating physical evidence.

Last October Yovino reported that she had been sexually assaulted in a bathroom by two Sacred Heart University football players at an off-campus party.

The men, however, said it had been consensual.

Capt. Brian Fitzgerald tells WABC-TV another student informed authorities of explicit text messages between the three. He says one man also recorded some of the incident on his cellphone.

“She admitted that she made up the allegation of sexual assault against (the football players) because it was the first thing that came to mind and she didn’t want to lose (another male student) as a friend and potential boyfriend. She stated that she believed when (the other male student) heard the allegation it would make him angry and sympathetic to her,” said an affidavit, according to the New York Post.

Two. Football. Players. At the same time.

She wanted a “relationship” with this other guy. She didn’t see why the “opportunity” to have premarital sex with two no-commitment bad boys at the same time should be rejected. After all, the man who would eventually have a relationship with her and marry her would presumably be OK with her choice. Because her choice was a good sign that she was ready for wife and mother roles.

I think that every single choice by a woman to have premarital sex with a no-commitment man is committing infidelity and adultery against her future husband. It’s a sign that she doesn’t have the self-control to value commitment over fun. She won’t be able to respect her husband as a leader, and be faithful (and sexually available) to him. She doesn’t see sex as a gift for the man who promises to take care of her. She sees sex as something to give to bad men to get validation and entertainment. And if she does marry later, I doubt that she will be as generous sexually with her husband. There is an epidemic of sex-withholding these days being committed by women who don’t see the man they took wedding vows with as worth of the energetic sex they freely gave to the no-commitment bad boys in their youth. Women who give bad boys premarital sex don’t see husband and father ability as desirable and worth rewarding.

No man can marry a “huge feminist”

Most men are not interested in committing to, or discussing commitment with, women who put pleasure above self-control. Most non-Christian men will have sex with a hedonistic women, but they won’t commit to them. Why would a man commit to a narcissist? If a man’s role is just to be ruled by the “huge feminist”, then there is no reason to discuss commitment or to commit. Radical feminists believe that relationships are about their plans and their needs. They are not interested in responsibilities, expectations or obligations to men or to children. Most men, even secular men, understand that such women are not suitable for commitment.

Will anyone explain marriage to these women?

Whenever I tell my Christian women mentors about what I am seeing today, they always say that women need to have marriage explained to them. But today, no one has the courage to tell young women that radical feminism is not the path to marriage. Instead, they are taught by parents and pastors to blame and shame men for not marrying them, as if their past decision-making had prepared their character for the roles of wife and mother.

30 thoughts on “Why don’t men today talk to women about commitment and marriage?”

  1. ‘Most men are not interested in committing to, or discussing commitment with, women who put pleasure above self-control.’

    Marriage is not the place where your fun and entertainment is the goal. It is to sacrifice for your spouse for their betterment. That’s why those who put pleasure above self-control (both men and women) are not good marriage prospects…ever.

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    1. And yet when you look at dating ads in dating sites, it’s all about what the person likes and what they want to do for fun. This is a disaster waiting to happen. Fun should be a by-product or purpose, not the main goal.

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        1. Not surprising that an app which main purpose is to have promiscuous hook ups would feature women with tats, piercings, bad haircuts, obesity, and alcoholism/drug use. They all go together in wanting pleasure and thrills over a marriage.

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          1. I’m fine with women doing that, what I don’t like is that parents and pastors and the secular left culture tell these women that this is a valid path to marriage, and the only reason it doesn’t work is because MEN won’t man up and marry them as they are. As if men are too stupid to understand what a woman’s choices with student loan debt, tattoos, piercings, hedonism, career first, etc. signal about the woman’s ability to be a wife and mom.

            Men might have sex with women who pursue pleasure in their 20s but they aren’t going to commit to those women.

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          3. That’s what the app became, because society wants hookups over dating.

            It’s the dating app for the younger generation. No one uses sites that required paid memberships, such as eharmony, match, or Christian mingle.

            Other apps such as bumble and coffee meets bagel don’t have many users, as the apps restrict your choices unless you pay.

            Tinder remains the most widely used app.

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  2. As a woman and mom of daughters (and not a feminist), I think a lot of the girls giving out sex are doing so because they want to be loved and have become convinced that if they give sex, they’ll get love in return. I wrote something about that here: https://salvomag.com/article/salvo18/saved-sex. Clearly this does not serve their best interests, and they don’t get what the expected from it.

    About the Jordana NYT essay, I wrote up something on that too. https://salvomag.com/article/salvo34/mastering-modern-love. I made some of the same points you did about chastity and then went a little philosophical from there.

    I guess the point I want to make is, whereas you portray promiscuous women (frequently girls, really) as selfish and reckless, and that’s true, I think they’re also desperately needy and idolatrous. They’re looking to a relationship with a man to satisfy their needs in a way that only God can. I think this is something a man probably cannot know unless a woman tells him.

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    1. I Hank you for these links. I just want to tell everyone that you’re my friend and your judgement is excellent.

      I think a lot of young men in the red pill / men’s rights movement forget that there are older, married women who have a lot of accurate, useful things to say about the impact of feminism. It’s not fair to lump all women together, some women really are fair to men.

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  3. I stopped bringing up marriage when I was single. I am from a traditional background and I had women treating me like I was an idiot because I believed in the wife/kids/family dynamic. I dont encourage any guy in bringing it up, if ever. Let the woman bring it up. If she is a good pick, keep her. If not; use the opportunity as a reason to tank the relationship.

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    1. Why not? I feel that if there is something you prioritize in a marriage, by all means, say it up front! If the other person doesn’t like or agree with it, they can walk. You just saved valuable time you could have otherwise wasted on someone that is not what you’re looking for.

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    1. Yeah, she was looking for deep intimacy and lasting commitment from those them. It seems like we’re not allowed to say different. Her motivations and her analysis of long-term consequences of her actions cannot be disputed or impugned.

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  5. “After all, the man who would eventually have a relationship with her and marry her would presumably be OK with her choice.”
    Well he won’t know about this choice. They don’t come with a n-counter on their foreheads which means there’s no telling how many (total or at-a-time.)

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  6. Not impressed by the salvomag article. Sounds purple-pill and a bunch of female squid ink/smoke screen, whatever.
    “Males give love to get sex, Dr. James Dobson has often observed, while females give sex to get love.”
    Utter coincidence that they want to get “love” from football players, etc.

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  7. It should be also the women correcting the young girls. Society is teaching a rejection of men, and their authority. So a man correcting a woman is oppressive patriarchy.

    Many women teachers are feeling based and don’t get into a lot of judgement.

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      1. Many sound ideas were undermined due to a few low percentage cases.

        Some men are abusive but that doesn’t mean that women can not listen to a good husband either. Challenge if what they are saying aligns with the scripture of that is the case.

        But building life plans based upon wisdom and biblical scripture is gone as an idea.

        And many years ago ung people are living in prolonged adolescense. Being thirty or more and making choices with the wisdom of a fourteen year old

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        1. I read up on the history of Prohibition…turns out it was the feminist rationalization that because some men were abusive to their wives after drinking alcohol…that alcohol should be prohibited for all.

          Hence they could probably rationalize the same thing about Scripture. The Word of God about how marriage is becomes null and void because a husband was abusive to a wife.

          Don’t get me wrong…domestic abuse is the result of many problems which should be addressed…but it’s not a justification to undermine the Word of God.

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          1. WK….you should read Libidio Dominandi. Government control is often the result of people who prefer passions over reason.

            Hence women who choose men to fornicate, or choose men that abuse drugs and alcohol, choose men based off ‘tingles’ and fun…suddenly want the government to step in and correct the bad results when the predictable consequences happen.

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          2. I think like that men AND women think that the most important thing to select for is outward appearance, and that things like religion and morals are secondary and can be changed later.
            Not trying to be offensive, but men marry women for youth and looks and just expect that they will get wife and mother character for free. It doesn’t work like that, for men or women.

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          3. What’s strange is this. First, the women marry the men who drink. Then, they want to use government to stop those men from drinking.

            I am thinking about that, and it frightens me that some women might view men’s moral values as something to fix later, using Government coercion. Is that how women see marriage? Or should the women not regard sobriety as something to evaluate and prefer in Aman before choosing who to marry, taking responsibility for their own choices?

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          4. I am thinking about that, and it frightens me that some women might view men’s moral values as something to fix later, using Government coercion. Is that how women see marriage?

            Well let’s face it…we all have hearts that need fixing because they’ve been broken by original sin and the act of getting married doesn’t suddenly change that. But if women think the state is the means to fix their husband in the marriage…they’ve forgot about the Lord.

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    2. Absolutely. Here’s the problem. The older women all too often want to BE the young girls. They want to live in a fantasy world where they’re on the same team as the hot young girls – they’re like kling-ons to the team-hottie, they’re wanna-bes instead of acting like mature women. They imitate them (with poor results) rather than correcting them.

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