I enjoy reading Dalrock’s blog. Recently, he posted a couple of posts (first and second) about theologian Doug Wilson. A friend gave me Wilson’s book “Reforming Marriage”, and I did not find it to be a helpful guide to marriage. So, I was interested to see what Dalrock found in Wilson’s other writings.
Here’s one quote that Dalrock found:
As the apostle Paul is urging young women to marry, he lets a very interesting comment fall in passing. “I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully” (1 Tim. 5:14). The word translated here as “guide the house” is oikodespotein. The wife is to be the ruler or despot of the home.
And:
A wife therefore has true authority over her home which no one, including her husband, can take away from her.
[…]In a certain sense, a husband… is an honored and permanent guest… he should learn to see himself as a guest.
Now, that seems to contradict the traditional view that men are supposed to be leaders in the home. I don’t think that Christian women are well-served by pastors who dispute the traditional view.
Apparently, lots of women are being told that the traditional meaning of the Bible doesn’t apply to them. I heard Ben Shapiro talk about a church-attending Christian woman who was raging at the Jewish men she had relationships with, because they had not married her. (in his latest podcast, H/T David)
Shapiro mentions this article from the radically-leftist Washington Post:
At my very first job in New York, a colleague jokingly informed me: “You came in a WASP, but you’re leaving a Jew.”
That statement was in reference to the demographics of the office’s staff. Almost everyone who worked there was Jewish, and I, a recent college graduate who had spent my adolescence in a largely Christian community in the South, was not.
[…]Over almost seven years and two serious relationships with Jewish men who at first said religion didn’t matter — and then backtracked and decided it did — I’ve optimistically begun interfaith relationships with an open mind twice, only to become the last woman these men dated before settling down with a nice Jewish girl.
[…]There were times at church that I saw couples worshiping together and felt pangs of jealousy. But I told myself every relationship had its problems and these were relatively minor.
She attended church, but she thought that a difference in religion was “relatively minor”. Nevermind what the Bible says about it. I think that this woman was taught by her pastor that her feelings had more authority than the teachings of the Bible. And that she could retain the label of “Christian” and attend church, despite holding to a worldview that was essentially feminist at its core.
This isn’t the first time that I’ve met “Christian” women raised in the church who thought that the Bible should not have any authority over their choices in relationships. Most woman I met in my teens and 20s believed that. Their only guides were their feelings and intuitions, and that even led some of them to shack up with atheists. And many of the men they chose were just children studying in non-STEM programs, living at home, and racking up debts. They had empty resumes, and empty bank accounts. Nothing I said to these women from wisdom or from the Bible put a dent in their priorities. And in more than one case, pastors backed them up against me.
What prompted me to write this post today was the conjunction of the Dalrock posts with what a friend of mine told me about the Christian woman he is currently dating. So let’s talk about that second part.
My friend is an absolute stud of a Christian man. He has a STEM career, tons of money, his own house, and he has spent a lot of time studying apologetics and engaging in debates. He also attends church and Bible study weekly, and runs an apologetics discussion group. On paper, this guy has everything.
So I was asking him how things were going with the lady. He was telling her about his adventures debating some moral issue. Rather than asking him for details about the exchange, or saying her own view, she completely shut down and refused to discuss it at all! And she wouldn’t even recognize that what he was doing was praiseworthy, in order to encourage him. You would think that a guy would be able to impress a self-described Christian woman with his adventures as a Christian man. But it turns out that a lot of Christian women don’t look for anything seriously Christian in a man or in a marriage.
The experience my friend described basically summarizes what I saw in my teens and 20s, until I met my friend Mary through my blog. Mary is a serious Christian woman who is chaste and active in apologetics. She can run circles around me in debates, and has a computer science degree. She works in computer science, too. Since Mary, I have even met other single and married Christian women with conservative politics, STEM degrees and solid careers and/or marriages, who read apologetics and engage in discussions with non-Christians. They do exist. But I don’t think that any of these great Christian women learned to value these things in church.
I think most pastors fear hurting women’s feelings by expecting them to take the Bible seriously when it comes to relationships and marriage. They minimize the obligations on women to be chaste, to date Christian men, to be focused on marriage while dating, to let husbands lead in the home, etc. It really bothers me that traditional conservative “complementarian” pastors are either unable or unwilling to tell women that the Bible has something to say about how to prepare for marriage, and who they choose to marry. Pastors are free to push their new revisionist feminist version of marriage. But I didn’t get BS and MS degrees in computer science with the plan of putting in 45 years of full-time work in the private sector for a “marriage” that’s been degraded by radical feminism. I offer a lot, and therefore I won’t accept anything less than a Christian wife and a Christian marriage.
People wonder why men are not marrying as often as they used to. I think it has something to do with the fact that pastors are teaching women that husbands ought not be the leaders of their own homes. A Christian man will want his wife to be chief of staff in the home. She should be intelligent, accomplished and effective. Of course he will consult with her before making decisions on how to proceed. But men don’t marry unless we are going to be entrusted with that leadership role. Male leadership in marriage is non-negotiable. And that’s why women need to be wise about choosing the right man for that job – by relying on her mind, instead of on her feelings. Not everything a woman feels like doing is wise.
If you’re a young woman wanting to impress a Christian man with your qualifications for marriage, then check out my marriage questions, and see how you do.
WINTERY KNIGHT 
The churches are a mission field, that much is for certain.
On marriage, on divorce, on abortion, on Hell, even (the overwhelming majority of) the best churches fail miserably when it comes to preaching and teaching on these subjects.
The strongest Christians I know cannot find a church – even though hundreds are “open” in our area.
The churches are dead – long live the Church!
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One my editors says that it’s really parents who are to blame, because they rely on others to teach a Christian worldview. There’s probably some truth to that.
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Probably so, but we need some TRUE leadership in those pulpits. Take those latte makers out to the streets! It seems like the churches are PLAYING at Christianity. And a big shout-out to the ones that are not – that are engaging with Orthodoxy AND Orthopraxy and being salt and light.
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Hi WK!
Maybe women are reacting to Paul’s poor advice which may be his own opinions rather than God’s. To advise men to love their wives and women to obey their husbands is a nonsense. Men and women who marry should love one another. Decision-making should be a joint exercise even if one party or the other generally take the lead. Did Christ mean that the second of the Great Commandments apply only to men?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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On what basis do you decide which parts of the Bible to accept or reject?
Also, who do you think wrote 1 Peter 3:1-6?
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He accepts the parts he likes and rejects the parts he doesn’t, of course!
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‘To advise men to love their wives and women to obey their husbands is a nonsense. ‘
Paul explained it in the context of the model of marriage…Christ and the church. It’s not nonsense when you view it from that model.
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‘But it turns out that a lot of Christian women don’t look for anything seriously Christian in a man or in a marriage.’
I sometimes think when I focus more on God, the Catholic faith, pursuing virtue, repentence of my sins, and trying to live out a life pleasing to God…I jokingly think to myself I’m doing no favors in attracting Christian women. But I realize that shouldn’t be the ultimate goal of life to begin with.
If I start focusing more on what women want…things get out of whack. If I focus more on what God wants then things make more sense.
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When I was little and still in high school, I can remember believing that if I learned how to defend the faith, and debate moral issues, then Christian women would prefer me to secular men. Wow, that was a long time ago. The world doesn’t work like that. But I am doing what I ought to do, anyway, and that has to be enough. I had to choose between women liking me and God liking me many times along the way.
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‘The world doesn’t work like that.’
It certainly doesn’t. It’s a fallen world.
Women can either follow Mary’s example or follow Eve’s. I want the woman more like Mary…and I hope I’m doing the things necessary to drive away the Eves.
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Indeed!
Follow Mary or follow Eve – great point!
I once heard a conversation about a strong Christian man who had repented to his wife over a number of grievances she laid against him. He even repented for a few she had not asked about. Then, when he laid out a few tiny grievances against her and asked for her repentance, she went silent.
One of the “men” in this conversation justified this silence with “Some Christian women just cannot apologize.” smh
The source of this may be that radical faux-men-ism has affected the churches more than the churches have rejected radical faux-men-ism. Regardless, there ARE good Christian women out there – but you will find them in battle, NOT in the churches. (With notable exceptions, of course.)
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Forgiveness and repentance aren’t easy for everybody. It takes humility…which is a virtue sorely lacking especially today.
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To me, it doesn’t even require humility – just following the clear Words of Christ will do.
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Oh, they’re out there. My daughter can discuss apologetics with the best of them, and live it out more than anyone I’ve ever seen. It’s amazing to listen to her. As her dad, I’m almost in awe of it all. Most women are all “feely”. She’s not. The truth is the truth and she sticks by it no matter what. She even does conflict resolution in her large Church, and is good at it. Her Church is one of those rare, large Churches that does not compromise on the word of God and the truth. They take a stand when it comes to divorce, abortion, remarriage, homosexuality… everything.
You’re right, There’s not many of her type around, that does so well with Biblical truth and it’s application to her life.
So don’t despair. They ARE out there.
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WK,
I understand why you might think that I believe in my own infallibility but really it’s a matter of discernment that we all have. Do you think that making man “…in Our Own Image,” has been nullified by Adam? Was God incapable of preserving the nature of man? Are we just another animal species created by God?
Have you read any of the books authored by Peter Cresswell? How much have you read of the work of the Church Fathers?
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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WK,
I am expressing my view here that all who live in Christ, men and women, are equal in Christ. I believe that He guides us through the contradictions of the Biblical texts and that His words have a timeless quality about them. Clearly, any reference to Christian wives being subject to their Christian husbands does not fit that criterion. And even a Christian man might demand from his wife to submit to a perverted act; should she submit to it?
You ask how I decide which Biblical passages to accept or reject but the same question should be asked of the authors few of whom wrote contemporaneously. How did they know if all the words they wrote were from God and that some might be their own thoughts or the thoughts of others passed down to them by oral tradition?
Do we have the original manuscripts? When were they written? Who decided which scriptures were canonical and which were apocryphal? Which version of the Bible represents the best translation of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts into English?
If the Bible reader is not allowed to use his own judgement he is doomed to misunderstand Christ’s purpose and teachings, in my view.
1 Peter 3:1-6 is another passage where the Status Quo was upheld which makes it as unremarkable as similar passages ascribed to Paul. It does not matter who I think wrote it; what matters if we are truly brave and honest is our understanding that it is un-Christian – that’s my view.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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It sounds to me like you haven’t done any historical study of the passages in question, but you just pick and choose what you like based on personal preferences. If so, I’m at a loss to see why you would claim the label “Christian”. If the Bible can only be reliable if it agrees with your personal preferences, then you believe in your infallibility. Christians believe in the infallibility of God’s revelation of himself through the Bible.
The historical issues you raised are defended by Christian scholars in specific cases. However, your approach seems to be to assert that none of the material is historical, except in the case that you like the material. That’s not a historical criticism, it’s just you saying that you agree with yourself.
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WK,
My personal preference is to discern what is true and just. It does not seem just to consider women as subject to their husbands who may be deemed to be automatic heads of their household. That may have worked in the Iron Age but there is no need for it to apply nowadays.
I’m not promoting the emancipation of women; simply that they should be given the chance to be equal partners with their husbands. But I have no objection if wives choose to be subject to their husbands whom they consider to be head of household.
1 Thessalonians 5:19-21 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
19 Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic [a]utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
Genesis 1:26-27 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [a]sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
This seems clear to me but then I’m showing my personal preferences.
Peace and love to all,
Dinos
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‘Clearly, any reference to Christian wives being subject to their Christian husbands does not fit that criterion.’
What about the context that Christ and the church was the model for marriage that Paul was talking about?
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Regarding a husband’s hypothetical request that a wife sin, she is not obligated to sin. One wonders why the woman would freely choose a man like that to marry, out of all the available men in the world. One cannot freely choose to marry an evil man and then expect him to act like a good man, can one? That would be irrational and irresponsible. Which is why women need to be careful who they marry.
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Besides how often do you think a husband ‘forces’ his wife to sin…and how often do you think a wife tries to influence her husband to sin? The answer may surprise you if you haven’t read the Bible.
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A husband asking his wife to sin is a distraction from the real issue. Women won’t submit about good and Godly things either. They just want an excuse to keep rebelling. And the average Christian man doesn’t have the balls to command her to sin anyway.
If he did, she’d probably do it; like the examples of so many women who’ve busted their man out of prison. Or the others who chase after confessed murderers.
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Yes…point being, the serpent knew how to tempt Eve to sin and as such Eve did something to convince Adam to sin. Women are naturally inclined to rebel.
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OK, so if you believe that the Bible contradicts itself, then who or what is your ultimate authority?
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“I am expressing my view here that all who live in Christ, men and women, are equal in Christ.”
Man and woman are not equal, not even in Christ. Man and woman are different. If you think Gal 3:28 tells otherwise, read again.
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
“Male AND female” NOT “man nor woman”. And even if it would say that, it would not mean the two are equal. Are Jews equal to Gentiles, are slaves equal to free-s? No they are not. They are different.
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It is the whole concept of equal and identical meaning the same that caused and still causes so much misunderstanding. They are not the same. We are equal but we are not identical. This misunderstanding of basic mathematical logic drives me nuts and is the basis of all misunderstandings. Equal does not and never means identical. It just means that in on a balance we are all sinners, we all fall short in the glory of God, and we all need the salvation as provided by Christ’s death and resurrection as the only payment for our sin. This means in God’s eyes we are equal, either a sinner or a saint depending how we react to His gift to us. We all are born thought the joining of one sperm and one egg. We all have the same number of chromosomes. We all will die one day. But we are not all identical. We all have different stories and backgrounds, we have different skin tones, we have different sex organs.
Likewise the whole concept that if we are all equal at the start and base levels lead us to think we all are to equal in the end. Again this is wrong. Some of us become Christians and some not. Those who become Christians will enter the gates of Heaven and those who do not will be damned and seperated from God infinitely. Also we see in the Bible how some, even starting out equal with others around them, will be blessed and others will not be blessed and will suffer much here on earth.
So are men and women equal as being human beings and needing God and His salvation? YES. Are men and women identical? NO. Do men and women have different roles, different responsibilities, different authority, different jobs in the family and the church? YES.
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“It is the whole concept of equal and identical meaning the same that caused and still causes so much misunderstanding. They are not the same.”
Well, the dictionary disagrees with you. It is the fault of the original author to use ‘equal’. It is too imprecise.
We agree that men and women are different. Both are human beings, and human beings need God and His salvation.
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Until about 1850, a Western woman “chose” her husband from the short list of men her parents introduced to her. Young women made good choices because all the men they were allowed to meet were good choices.
Modern Christians seem to think that if you raise girls with the right values, you can then cast them out into the wide world and they will come back with good husbands. Where has that ever worked?
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Regarding a husband’s hypothetical request that a wife sin, she is not obligated to sin.
WK, don’t feed the trolls. This is feeding right into the view that “Christian” means whatever the individual wants it to mean. Just as Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son, and the disciples were willing to steal a colt for Jesus this under authority don’t get to disregard it because they disagree. HOWEVER, the leader is held accountable by those he is under authority of.
As you say, you cannot pick and choose.
Biblically men and women are not “equal and same creations” they were created in different ways for different purposes. Man was made from the dust of the earth to be the Glory of God, but it was not good for him to be alone. So once all the other animals were ruled out to be his companion, God made woman from the flesh of the man to be the Glory of Man.
Equality so not a remotely Christian concept. For anyone.
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I don’t know if I agree that this can all be laid at the feet of the pastor. I think a lot of this stems from Daddy interfering and teaching her she’s a special princess. It’s not the pastor’s job to grow little girls into young Christian women. It’s Daddy’s job. And from what I see, most Christian men spoil their daughters useless.
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Yes, that’s what one of my friends who is a former feminist and now a good wife told me right after she proof read this draft for me. Unfortunately it was so close to time of publication that I couldn’t make any adjustments.
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Exactly. Too many men today think that their daughter’s highest call is to exalt herself. That leads them to forget about many key Biblical truths.
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Shoot that’s serpent talk 101.
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I was going to say, I sometimes wonder about the combination of 1) fathers and 2) pastoral messages about dating and marriage preparation.
Many girls aren’t brought up to be discerning (or in previous posts’ comments, dad isn’t willing to put his foot down / draw the line in terms of his daughter’s dating prospects and moral choices). I suspect there’s some absenteeism in fathers as well as fathers that are physically around but rather disconnected with their daughters.
I did some unscientific surveying of friends and websites for you, asking them if they hear on marriage, dating, marriage preparation.
On the high side is Redeemer Presbyterian (NYC), a singles heavy church. My friend there reported, “I typically hear these topics mentioned 5-8 times a year, which may be high. Dedicated sermons would be more like 2-3 times a year.”
Informally surveying some others and other church websites (including Northpoint and Menlo Church), I don’t think it’s even that high. I have heard from college parachurch organizations/campus fellowships that any talk on dating/relationships (as well as “how do we discern God’s will for our lives”) tends to be very popular.
Churches typically follow either 1) exegetical messages, usually picking a book of the Bible and working through that book, and/or 2) topical messages, following a theme or it can be one-off topical sermons. It’s rare that I hear sermons on dating/marriage. (Of course, it’s even more rare to get sermons on “how to think about how to vote,” economics, and “how to think of other religions”.)
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I’d say an unfortunate majority of “Christian” women just believe that when the right man comes along, “I’ll know in my heart he’s the right one.” This isn’t from Scripture. It’s from Disney.
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Your telling of your friend’s story hits home. I ended a relationship with a Christian when she used the shutdown tool. It didn’t make peace like she probably intended it to do, but did make driving in a car with her pointedly empty.
That specific story implies so much more, I hope commenters say more about it. One obvious insight is to see it as a result of her feeling empowered, even though her decision was self-destructive.
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Saying we can’t accept scriptures because if possible let side perversion of the authority given to men is equal to saying we need to accept all abortion because sometimes a woman may die during child birth. It is illogical and only used to have no debate turning it into an emotional issue with no facts.
When the Bible talks about being equal it is affirming a womans ability to have a relationship with God, and that she is fully human not a lower species than men.
It seems odd today but back in Greco Roman era placing women as a lower level of a God chain below men was a common idea.
As collective groups men and women have different abilities that should be celebrated and not denied as if recognizing reality will undermine anything
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Greg,
Here’s where the “equality” issue goes off the rails. You are taking about the status of men and women here. The Bible makes no heirarchy regarding men and women…….now husbands and wives, there is a God given hierarchy. One that is rejected by the modern church.
Framing the issue “men and women” and not “husbands and wives” obscures the real word of God.
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“The wife is to be the ruler or despot of the home.”
When I first read this, I was astonished to see Wilson using “despot”. Upon reflection, I looked at the definition of despot: “a ruler or other person who holds absolute power, typically one who exercises it in a cruel or oppressive way.” From that, I now find the usage deplorable! Supposing a wife is given the authority to manage the home (which I think it scriptural), she is still under the husband’s headship and her authority is revocable should she abuse it.
In short, the wife is the manager of the home, but NOT its ruler or despot!
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I would agree with manager, but I like chief of staff because it has more (derived) authority. What I didn’t like is that he says I’m the guest in a home that I had to work to provide. That’s not appropriate.
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I also detest the “honored guest’ statement he made. Since the two are related, one could argue that Wilson is saying the wife, the despot of the home, should make an exception and consider the husband an honored guest but only if she considers his behavior acceptable.
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You really really really hate atheists, don’t you? I only wonder what you would do to atheists like me if you were King and I was your subject.
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Well I wouldn’t treat you like atheist Stalin treated his Christians.
Right now, God is in charge and has power over all of us. He isn’t being too obvious about things like the origin of life or big bang cosmology or the fine tuning. He’s leaving it up to people to go and find those books themselves and read them, e.g. “A Fortunate Universe” published by Cambridge University Press.
Christians like me basically think that atheists are people who are too busy having fun to bother to read books like A Fortunate Universe because they have a vested interest in not wanting a relationship with God. They don’t want the burden of having to look stupid in front of non Christians by not drinking and not having premarital sex. And they don’t want the moral obligations to do stuff they don’t feel like doing like going to church and reading the Bible. And God seems to be fine with letting them have space to not read books like A Fortunate Universe, and to not watch debates like William Lane Craig vs Christopher Hitchens, and to not puzzle things out. His approach is like “I just want the people who want me to find me”.
So to answer your question, if I were King, I would treat you like God is treating you right now and leave you alone. On a personal level, I’d try not to do anything unnecessary that would make you think badly about Christianity, and I might try to ask you to lunch to see where youcre at so I could BUY you a book like A Fortunate Universe. Thats what I do in my office with my atheist coworkers, and they like that, and ask me out to talk mor all the time. But I would not do anything that would push you away from God.
If you asked me about moral issues, I’d have to defend the pro life view and natural marriage, for example, because I have to stand up for unborn children and children’s rights to a mom and a dad. So if you divorced your wife, I would have to disagree with you and maybe you wouldn’t like that. But I wouldn’t be allowed to just push you away from God for no reason, because I have a boss, and my boss says not to do anything to push you away from him. I’ve had atheists get mad at me because my refusal to drink alcohol and my virginity made them feel bad. I’m sorry about that but I have to be me and act consistently with what I believe. A lot of Christians are getting in trouble with offended atheists these days, but we have to be who we are.
Sorry if my disagreements with you are harsh. I am perhaps a bit forceful about evidence, because I think most atheists feel really comfortable where they are at right now. This comfort seems irrational to me, because we live in a world where science has discovered not only an absolute origin of the universe, but fine tuning and a rapid origin of biological information in the first replicating organism, and a sudden rapid origin of major body plans in the fossil record, and surpringly picky requirements for a planet capable of supporting carbon based life. This is all in the academic literature. I get snarky because I am annoyed that these evidences are not more widely known, but I guess that’s how some people are.
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Many atheists have become smug in their ignorance of reality. They mock those that are open minded and willing to evaluate things based upon historical values given to logic, science and philosophy.
Christianity according to an atheist has no value in exploring the possibility that it may be true. And dismissals of Christianity are based generally on feelings or made up facts that keep getting recycled with few people finding out if those views were even true. The Bible just can’t be accurate. What dawkins says about the Bible is obviously backed by the highest level of scholars. Those kind of atheistic ideas are very common.
An honest atheist or agnostic that wants to be open minded to any possibility and that does believe the world is logical and believes in using actual science to test and formulate what can happen is worthy of witnessing too. But those that are happily ignorant aren’t
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I’m here via Dalrock. Nice post.
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Just trying out a different browser to see if my comments always go to moderation because of Firefox. Hello?
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No, normally moderate comments! Sorry!
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The Christian social system as far as male and female go is Patriarchal.
The enemies of God corrected identified that divinely ordained order and made a characture of it in order to lambast it as tyranny and abusive.
Christianity is Patriarchal and we must come to terms with that no matter how people will falsely accuse us.
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One of the problems with pastors is that many were never “called” to the priesthood or pastorate. During Vietnam Seminary was a big way to avoid the draft and get into what is, in many cases, a sinecure.
These men did not believe in their church’s dogmas, but only staying away from Vietnam. They brought the rot of progressivism into the churches. Fortunately they are now in their 60s or 70s and dying off.
That is not to say that there wasn’t rot before that, just look at the hell that broke loose when church discipline was eased in the Catholic Church during and after Vatican II.
In the Catholic Church the young priests are returning to tradition and the Latin Mass, along with many of the laity especially the younger ones. So there is a correction underway.
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