Mentoring

The rules for friendship and courtship between Christian men and women

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This post will probably be changing as time passes and I learn more about relationships.

The goal

The goal of my opposite-sex friendships (hereafter just “friendships”) is for me to build up the skills of Christian women by exchanging training materials to work through, and monitoring progress. The training materials for friendship are centered around apologetics, with some conservative policy, as well. The friendships are beneficial to God because we are building each other up, and it also provides a context for us to evaluate changing to a courtship.

Most of my relationships with Christian women will never enter into the friendship phase because virtually none of them even care for apologetics. But some Christian women have shown an interest in apologetics and conservative policy and that’s what gets the friendship going.

I basically think about this friendship-courtship distinction as a continuum where passing through the gate from friendship to courtship is dependent on progress in sharing my vision with her and having her take appropriate steps to recognize and contribute to my vision. When a female Christian friend begins to contribute to my overall life vision, that’s the point at which we consider changing to a courtship.

Marriage

I am open to marrying any chaste female Christian. The grounds for the decision to marry are that the marriage would provide a better benefit to God in terms of his purposes in the world than if we continued to work separately. In particular, I am looking for my prospective mate to demonstrate her commitment to my four-pronged vision for serving God in the most effective ways. (See below)

I am also interested in whether she understands the challenges facing men and male needs, especially in areas like feminism, big government, no-fault divorce, child custody, etc. But I am also interested in her views in areas like chastity, modesty, grooming, physical fitness and expected frequency of marital sex. She must also recognize standards of chastity, chivalry and romance and participate in standard activities like letter-writing.

My vision

My vision involves operations in 4 areas:

The university:

  • get a PhD and teach in the university as a publicly-identified Christian OR no PhD, but teach in a community college
  • fund Christian scholars to lecture and debate at the university
  • fund research by intelligent design scholars
  • raise brilliant home-schooled children who can get PhDs and go on to impact the university

The church

  • bring scholars in to lecture and especially to debate in the church, and sponsor these events
  • teach adult Sunday school classes in apologetics (i.e. – show debates and discuss them, read books and discuss them)
  • find a wife who can help with these goals

The workplace

  • study apologetics and engage co-workers in discussions at lunch if they are interested
  • operate a library to lend out lectures and debates to those who are interested
  • give co-workers gifts at Christmas like DVDs on intelligent design or debates
  • put things in my office to declare myself as a thoughtful Christian
  • find a wife who can be hospitable, prepare meals and host discussions in our home

The public square

  • blog: inform and educate Christians about economic and public policies that affect our liberty
  • donate to Christian politicians who reflect my priorities
  • donate to other Christians who engage in debates on abortion, Islam, etc.
  • run for office after kids are grown-up
  • encourage wife to run for office after kids are grown-up
  • encourage kids to run for office after they retire from teaching at the universities

If a Christian woman is interested in having me assist her with learning apologetics and stuff, so she can serve God better, that’s called a friendship. If she starts to inquire about my vision and begins to show real recognition and support for it, that’s called a courtship.

The main thing is that God’s goals are always the center of our interactions. Marriage is not the end goal of the relationship. God’s goals in the world are the end. Marriage is just a possible means to that end. Being a good husband is a means to that end. Even being a good father is a means to that end.

The rules

Here are my rules for dealing with Christian women:

  1. No touching during friendship or courtship. This rule holds until the engagement day, where a kiss is permitted, but nothing more. The reason for this rule is to avoid losing 1) the ability to focus on my plan instead of women, and 2) the ability to evaluate Christian women objectively and dispassionately. (Note: I now think that hand-holding and hugging is OK once the initial evaluation of her is complete, and she starts to put in effort on the things that you care about, that are related to your plan)
  2. No being together by ourselves in non-public places without a chaperone. This applies to friendship and courtship.
  3. The friendship advances by exchanging and executing tasks that help us both to be more effective Christians. For example, listening to lectures together and stopping the lecture to discuss things, and then writing about the lecture afterward.
  4. The courtship advances by exchanging and executing tasks related to my vision. For example, we arrange a viewing of a debate or lecture DVD at her church and then jointly take questions from the audience.
  5. Gifts exchange is allowed during the friendship, but no tokens can be given to me.
  6. Token exchange (e.g. – a lady’s handkerchief with her colors), is reserved to mark the beginning of courtship. I have to carry it with me whenever I fight, and give reports to her on how I did. She can withdraw it, ending the courtship. I can also return it, ending the courtship. I can only carry one token at a time.
  7. Parents should be kept informed about the progress of friendships and courtships.
  8. Her parents have the right to engage me in discussions about my views on apologetics, etc. at any time during the friendship or courtship, but they do not have the right to override my vision with their vision.
  9. It helps me if women dress modestly, because I am more comfortable when a woman tries to attract me using non-physical approaches, like words. I resent it when women try to attract me using sex appeal instead of words. I like being in control of myself. Sex appeal is strictly for after the wedding. There are a million ways for a Christian woman to knock a Christian man off his feet just by taking an interest in things like apologetics and economics. The trick is to find a man who cares about being friends with God.
  10. I am looking to court someone who already has the skills to assist me with my vision, or who demonstrates a willingness to develop them, or who is able to persuade me that other skills are an even better match for my vision.

These are guidelines that I try to communicate to women to help us to constrain our relationship to serve God’s goals. These are all subject to discussion and debate, of course.

I think that one of the effects of these rules is to take the pressure to be “sexy” off of women. And to remove sex from the equation entirely – there is no room for clumsy groping in the back seat of a car in this operation. Instead, a woman wins the heart of a man if she is willing to listen to him, learn about his needs as a man, and his vision to serve God, and then work hard to recognize and support all that.

Sample activities

In a friendship, the first steps are going to involve a lot of studying and talking. For example, it is not uncommon for me to spend 2-6 hours just talking to a Christian woman about spiritual things. We do independent studies around things like reading the same books, listening to the same lectures, or even doing the political compass or resurrection questionnaires together. Individual tasks for me from her might include Bible reading, church attending, bringing her resources that she asks for, writing about my feelings and experiences, etc.

I believe in exchanging tasks so that the woman gets into the pattern of getting outside her own needs and thinking about her obligations to me. My concern is that a lot of women have a fairy tale view of marriage. She picks a man for superficial reasons and hopes to change him later. This leads women to ignore male needs and the man’s vision prior to marriage. The man is tricked into the marriage by pre-marital sexual activity.

Unfortunately choosing a bad man and then tricking him with sex doesn’t work to keep that man as her appearance fades. This is particularly bad for women whose self-esteem is tied to appearance. And I think that is a major reason why women are so interested in no-fault divorce and massive government social programs – to relieve them of the burden of having to choose the right man and having to work to win him and having to work to keep him.

Real men find big government very discouraging, which is why men are not interested in marriage any more. The prospect of facing activist family courts run by feminists is too much for thoughtful men to contemplate. Men can’t support a family on a salary that is highly taxed to pay for things like VAWA or welfare programs, or single-payer health care. Men also don’t want to lose access to their kids based on fake charges of domestic violence.

I know that these rules and procedures are going to strike a lot of you as odd, and some of you are going to stop reading my blog because I am just too weird. Well, I think you should just snicker at me and keep reading. After all, someone has to be different. The only people really in a position to judge whether this is working are my female Christian friends, and God. I myself am very happy with these rules because they help me to put God first.

Building Christian women up

One last thing. The man’s role in the relationship is to love his wife all the time, and to do it intelligently. It’s therefore imperative for him to read about how women understand love. I recommend the book “The Five Love Languages” for learning about how to love women well. Also, it’s a great idea to read all about how women think and feel about what they do in a marriage, so that you can support them after first understanding them. A good book to read on that is “What Wives Wish Their Husbands Knew About Women: and similar books. It’s a good idea to think about how to become better at leading by persuasion – by convincing women to grow upward. For example, I convinced one girl I was courting to go back to school and do a degree in economics. Another one went back to school get her law degree. And this not to even mention the basic stuff that women I court do – like organizing public debates, apologetics conferences, teaching apologetics in the church, finding summer jobs, getting top grades in school, giving public speeches, and so on. Courting is the time where you intentionally lead women to become stronger.

In the 2012 the Presidential election, I supported Michele Bachmann as my first choice for the office of President. Her husband Marcus is very traditional about courtship and marriage, just like me. He actually asked her to go back to school at one point to specialize in tax law, in order to help the family business and be better at pushing the children upward through school. That was a smart decision, to grow his wife up like that so that she could be better. So whatever you do in the courtship, your goal should always be to push women up, up, up. And that applies whether she is for you or for someone else or for no one else. Make her better than she used to be so that she can serve God better – to be a better wife and mother, and to have more of an influence in the world for Christ and his Kingdom. Never, ever bring her down or minimize the impact she can have for good. She is a partner in serving God, after all.

Related posts

Neil has a related post on complementarian marriage (which is my view).

118 thoughts on “The rules for friendship and courtship between Christian men and women”

  1. Thanks for your provocative and thorough post. I think you have thought this through well. Even though you might change things a bit over time (do you really plan to “make” your wife / children run for public office?) the foundation and general tactics are excellent.

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      1. Haha! Wintery Knight I would love to meet you in person! I’ve been by your blog once or twice and assumed you were middle-aged but that is apparently not the case. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen such a broad, necessarily qualitative and dynamic subject articulated with such specificity. I bet that reality will surprise you when you find a girl and get married… but what do I know, time will tell…

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      2. Oh my God so such wonderful thanks for accepting God to use towards other people who need such encouraging information thanx dear may God bless you enlarge your understanding give you whatever your heart is yarnning for and your family your ministry and whatever you press your hands on in Jesus Christ name am blessed and I have taken time and wrote everything down to help us with the one am about go in courtship with and others who will be in need of them be blessade am in Kampala Uganda.

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    2. I like everything except the comment on VAWA. Do you realize that Act only protects the “housing assistance” rights on victims of domestic abuse and furthermore does not limit it’s rights to just women but to men too? Or is it that you don’t agree with housing assistance which costs billions upon billions of our money for those who can’t afford to pay rent. Probably about half of those people could be out there getting jobs and saving our tax dollars. Oh my gosh don’t even get me started. I know there are many people who sincerely and rightly have the need for housing assistance and for those cases, I am thankful. It can be a hot debate though…

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  2. P.S. You nailed the part about courtship. As the father of two daughters I like to see Christian men going about it the biblical way.

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  4. Your goals are almost inherently contradictory. If you don’t touch the girl during dating, you will have a hard time judging how prudish she is until after you marry. Thus, you can either carry out strategy #1, or you can find a girl who understands male needs. But you can’t necessarily do both.

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    1. Drew, I am so glad you asked this.

      I actually have derived a brilliant two-pronged strategy for testing for this.

      1) I wrote blog posts featuring Dennis Prager, Dr. Laura and William Lane Craig who have all been prominent proponents of the idea that wives should be attentive to the sexual needs of their husbands in order to honor their views and achieve happy marriages, (within certain limitations). This way, unmarried Christian women who read my blog can read all about typical male needs by respected scholars. If these women begin to write back about these issues, I can guage their level of interest even more. I can also see how interested she is in reading books like Dr. Laura’s “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands”, etc.

      2) I also make a lot of demands on women to do things that they hate, like firing guns, driving sports cars, fixing up their appearance, playing competitive sports and lifting weights. I can tell immediately how they respond to demands to things that guys like. If they treat these needs as stupid and refuse to participate in these kinds of activities, then I know immediately that they will not be understanding about sex.

      And I have some other ways to test. The trick is to test for the character traits you are looking for without dragging her through the muck in order to get your answers. Christian women who are favorably inclined to men and marriage are already facing a lot of challenges, so I try to make these inquiries in ways that are not going to make them even more uncomfortable.

      But great comment, though. I hope this assuages your concerns.

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      1. Obvious issue: satisfying men, biologically, is easy; his response is almost guaranteed. Satisfying women, however (and creating a marriage in which she would want to reciprocate) is much more difficult.

        I can think of why a sane woman would want to wait for sex until marriage. I can think of why sane women would always be ready for sex. What I cannot see is the two groups overlapping, except by lucky happenstance, unless a man actually stops thinking about his own needs and puts her needs first.

        (Let’s be honest: rare is the sexually satisfied woman who does not want to bed her husband; rarer still is a decent woman who feels that way.)

        Just saying…..

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        1. I agree with you about men being able to create the conditions that make it easy for women to be self-sacrificial in love. In fact, William Lane Craig encourages men to set aside time for direct eye-contact conversation with the spouse in this lecture that I posted recently. What I am finding out now is that talking to women is incredibly fun, so long as they want to talk about interesting things like apologetics and theology and public policy and parenting.

          I’ll try to write something tomorrow about what a man can do. I can tell you right now that after sustained eye contact conversations I can really have powerful emotions arise. For the first few days of talking with a woman, I am as cool as a cucumber. Then all of sudden, as I tell more and more about myself without being censored or attacked, something snaps! And then I get these terrible urges to ask the person out for dinner, to hold her close and slow dance, and to be alone with her to talk even more. (And touching is against the rules!) I start to have these visions of being married and just slow dancing with her until the sun becomes a red giant and incinerates the earth.

          My advice to women is to encourage men to talk about their feelings in the context of sharing their vision. That works well! Very very well. And the woman has to be careful to reinterpret everything the man says in the best possible way. And I highly recommend fighting about issues so that she can allow him to be himself. That’s what’s really worked on me. The more I fight with women and see that they are not going to fight dirty but just stick to the issues, the happier I am. I think that being able to have a safe place to express your feelings is very very compelling. I think it helps that we have these rules in place so we can keep focused on discussing bigger issues.

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        2. Your rules seem somewhat rigid…I just wonder if you would be open to allowing the loving and creative God we serve to have some creative reign in your life and do things outside of the strict confines that you seem to have set up for Him….

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      2. I’m wondering what your father was like when he was your age. I am very curious to know your exact age when writing this blog. I hate to venture a guess.

        As a woman, let me say that you are intriguing in that the post I’m replying to states “make a lot of demands on women to do things that they hate, like firing guns, driving sports cars, fixing up their appearance, playing competitive sports and lifting weights”.

        Has it occurred to you that many women enjoy these activities and sports or are you thinking the woman you will find God leading you toward will be a modest, comely individual with a quiet spirit rather than a determined and outspoken female?

        I want to know when you get married and who you marry.
        You are quite an interesting character.

        ~Jodi

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        2. Jodi, I agree with what you said but I’m someone who is conservative and with a quiet spirit yet very outgoing and not afraid to be outspoken. So, it’s not just one or the other. It’s how you display yourself in any given situation. There’s a time and place for every action and word :)

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      3. Hello Sir, I am soooo so glad that you are a Christian and have a soul and heart for God. If not, I fear that (with all of your knowledge and strategy planning) you’d most certainly be a beacon of dark working against God. I love that you want to publicly profess yourself as a follower of God in the workplace and University system (I go to Northwestern in Evanston,IL and did not realize just how many are athiest or agnostic or just solely committed to science) and I love that you’ve identified your goals and the goal of friendship.
        Very excellent
        My ideal life would be on a farm. I’d love to be a farmer’s wife, secretly wish I were amish or a nun but mostly just love the easy going peace, patience, and workmanship of farmers, carpenter’s etc.

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      4. Awesome! I enjoy all of those things so I must be ok. You forgot to add watching football which I also enjoy. LOL!

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  5. I wonder how easy it would be to actually find biblical guidelines on courting … since the biblical method was arranged marriage. Might be an interesting exercise.

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      1. That is such a good question. did you find a reference? Although I don’t have a specific reference in the bible on guidelines for courting, I believe we can approach it the same way we seek any answers.By searching the truth in His word. He speaks the truth in our hearts. We take it one day; and sometimes one moment at a time. I love this discussion and I love how you have answers and formulas to rightly grow in friendships and relationships. I’m on the same journey. I wish there was a solid guideline. sometimes we just need to take a leap of faith and trust God’s truth in our hearts.

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      1. I understand, but we are just going to disagree on this. You may be interested in reading an essay by C.S. Lewis called “The Necessity of Chivalry”, or any other classics like Edmund Spenser’s “The Faerie Queene” or Sir Walter Scott’s “Ivanhoe” or even anything by Jane Austen. But these are old books so they may not apply to you. I love the old ways and I am looking for a richer experience with women than what I see happening today.

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        1. I just have to reply to my own comment and note that TWO of the the THREE women I admire most are currently reading Ivanhoe, and I didn’t ask either of them to. I read this when I was 15 and it changed my life, along with Cyrano.

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      2. Actually, whether or not it is “unbiblical” depends on one’s model. A biblical courtship is just one that maintains the respect and dignity of the other person, all the while saving marital relations for the wedding night.

        There are many “courtship” models, especially by homeshool groups, that are just plain silly and legalistic. Bill Gothad’s version is a good example.

        Our idea of “courtship” with our children was essentially this:

        No dating until ready for marriage – dating is essentially practicing divorce as the heart is given away again and again.

        When ready for marriage seek a partner, not just an amusement. Spend time becoming friends in public arenas, no isolation which can lead to temptations.

        Holding hands is probably as intimate as one should be until engaged, so as to keep the focus on friendship and not sexual stimulation. Sexuality clouds the thinking quickly!

        While some think the first kiss should be reserved for marriage, I think the engagement should be sealed with a kiss, but an engagement should be relatively short because the natural progression of intimacy is really hard to hold in check.

        Just some basic thoughts there, that aren’t biblical or unbiblical.

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        1. Well, said. Thanks for putting this into words. With the exception on the last point I agree with all of the above.
          Note: I don’t think a kiss at engagement is wrong but I think it would be really cool to not kiss until I’m married.
          Thanks for your insight!

          In Him,
          V

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      3. You’re free to embrace whatever you want and impose whatever rules on yourself that you want. I was primarily condemning the people who assert “courtship” as normative for Christians.

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    3. I wonder why so many Christians try to follow a strict Biblical view of dating and courtship when the Bible clearly records and (arguably at least) advocates the following (for men, at least):
      Multiple wives
      Concubines
      slavery
      arranged marriages

      These are all a part of the Old Testament, and yet we dismiss them as outmoded.

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      1. Let me start by saying I really appreciate hearing a different perspective and I’m glad to have read your posts on this.

        I think it’s important to note the effects of multiple wives (See the friction in Jacobs family with Leah and Rachel in Genesis), concubinage (how that led to Solomon’s downfall) and the freeing of the Israelites from slavery (Exodus). While the Bible definitely notes the existence of these things that doesn’t mean that polygamy, concubinage, or slavery are desirable. Clearly, the negative affects that these had on those who undertook them are evidence that they are not good, as God’s blessing on such things is absent. Often, especially in the Pentateuch, the OT teaches through narrative and not through strict rules. It gives the story of what happened and allows us to learn from it. Recognizing the existence of something is neither condoning it nor advocating it.

        As for arranged marriages, I feel it is best to have our marriages arranged by God. Furthermore, I’ve seen arranged marriages, like love marriages, turn out either good or bad. I don’t think there is a cookie cutter for this. :)

        In Christ,
        V

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      2. Multiple wives and divorce were not Gods idea but mans. In review of the scripture:

        – Garden of Eden, God made Eve (singular) from Adam
        – The two shall become one flesh (OT & NT see Mark 10:2-10)
        – Jacob wanted Rachel but got Leah
        – Song of Soloman (His One)
        – New Testament writings clearly teaches one wife & faithfulness (not multiple wives & divorce). This is what made Christianity very desirable to women during the early church age.

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  6. A couple thoughts, especially having had a son do a “courtship” model for marriage.

    How old are you? Some of your ideas are very idealistic, but also I think a tad unrealistic – such as, what in the world do “firing guns, driving sports cars,… playing competitive sports and lifting weights” have to do with sex???? And would demanding they do things they hate be a bit overbearing? I’ve been married 33 years (with a son and daughter) and I’ve never demanded my wife do things she hates. I have never demanded she do things she just doesn’t like. In the latter catagory, she has never been into aviation and I happen to love it. Many times I have invited her to go flying with me and she said, “No thanks,” while other times she tags along. Air shows and air museums can be very boring for her but I’ve never demanded she go; but she always goes because she likes being with me. I have owned guns and love to shoot for 37 years, yet only this year has she said she’d like to try (she always hated guns but was okay with me owning them and going to target practice on my own) and now has fun shooting.

    There are things my wife enjoys that I hate and she has never demanded me to participate. I often participate just to let her know I am interested in her likes and dislikes even if I don’t like them.

    This is what builds a marriage – not on demanding one do or like what the other likes, but just allowing them their own feelings and opinions and support them and they will support you. I didn’t want to marry a clone.

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    1. Oh, it’s uncomfortable to be chastised by your elders.

      I stand by my statement that it is important to evaluate how willing women are to learn about the things that men need and like. I admit that your experiences as you relayed them tend to falsify my idea, because you were able to have such a happy marriage without getting your wife to do many of the things you liked. Sex is one of those things that seems difficult for some women to come to terms with, and I firmly believe that you can test for openness to it by inviting women to engage in other activities they do not understand or appreciate initially.

      Perhaps I am a little more demanding than most because I am aiming for a higher level of intimacy. If I met a women who resisted me on the apparently arbitrary things I mentioned, I would pass her by. No one is asking a wife to do things she hates – this is a way of evaluating women BEFORE they become your wife. I think it is appealing to those who have a lot to lose by making a bad match, and who are interested in a deeper fellowship with the opposite sex involving more voluntary self-sacrifice and open-mindedness.

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      1. First of all, let me say that I am NOT a feminist. I believe in the complementarity of the sexes, that roles for men and roles for women are different because of the nature that God created in them. I believe that Godly women are submissive to their husbands and do their best to affirm Christ-exalting leadership in their Christian brothers. I am also in my late twenties, and I am single. I am committed to purity before marriage, and have abandoned the standard “dating” practices of the world. I also love discussing theology and apologetics. I say the following in the hope that you will be helped by some insight into the Christian female heart.

        Despite seeming to be the type of girl that you claim to be looking for, I find your approach to courtship extremely off-putting. It seems that many of the requirements you have of your wife are based on a very limited view of feminine nature. While I desire to support my husband in his endeavors, I would hope that he would understand that I cannot possibly devote all my energy to what he wants without any support in what I need. From your “requirements,” it seems this is all you care about.

        Christian men are called to love their wives as Christ loves the church, even giving up his life for her. (Ephesians 5:25-30- I’m sure you’re familiar). The type of man who truly responds to this call, I would follow to the ends of the earth, but I’m not sure you understand what that can truly mean.

        What if your perfect wife one day becomes ill? Or must be on bedrest while pregnant with your child? Will she still be expected to cook and clean and go to lectures with you in this state? Will you abandon her to her illness and go do those things anyway by yourself? Perhaps that is too easy a question. What if she is going through a particularly difficult time emotionally? Are you willing to retreat from your desires for a season in order to edify and encourage her with kindness and love in the Lord? Are you willing to give even one of your dreams up for her? Do you understand that a Godly marriage is about give and take, that the female nature is designed to help and edify a man, and not to be his mindless servant?

        What if she also feels called to serve the Lord, but in a different area of ministry than you, such as teaching children, missions, hospice, etc? (Not leadership, pastoring, preaching, or teaching men- these areas are unbiblical.) Remember that while she is to be submissive to you, her first loyalty must always be to the Lord.

        I hope that you don’t just say that this type of woman doesn’t appeal to you. There is nothing unbiblical about the type of woman I’ve outlined. Why not look for a christian woman who is passionate for God, studies His word, and is continually growing in her walk with Him?

        You also need to study what the bible requires of a Husband as well as a wife. You want a cook, maid, seamstress, and a lover. She is looking for a king, someone she will commit to submitting to for the rest of her life. Think of what you’re asking of her, and try to be worthy of that sacrifice.

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        1. After reading more of your posts, I think this article did not fully represent what you truly believe about marriage. While this article didn’t address the issues that concerned me, several others did. While I think that not everything I said before still applies, I am still interested in your response.

          I would like to thank you for addressing the issue at all. In many churches, the issues of young adulthood and singleness are never addressed. I suppose they assume that christian men and women magically meet each other and get married with no instruction or teaching at all! :)

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        2. I pray that my daughters grow to become like you. Your father (and mother) must be very proud of the woman you have grown to become. If I had a son, I’d show him this article, and recommend he find you. :) (Not in a creepy stalker way, no worries. More in a “this is the type of woman you should be searching and praying for” kind of way.)

          You are very blessed to have been raised as you were, and to be where you are now.

          Let me just also add. As you get older, you will see that many “men” have already been taken. Resist the urge to compromise. There are good, righteous men, who will love you with the devotion you reference above (and very much deserve). Wait for them. I’m happily married to a wonderful wife now, but when I was younger, it felt like there simply were no women interested in Godliness (God can be my savior, but not my Lord). But one came around, and after well more than a decade of marriage, I can say without a hint of reservation, that she was completely worth waiting for.

          Lastly, find a person to mentor. Your thinking is rare, and it’s a very large struggle to find mentors for my daughters who have a Christian worldview, and can articulately express it. You are a rare gem, and please do share that so that others can also glorify God with their lives.

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      2. Hi Wintery Knight,
        I have one question – what lengths are YOU prepared to go to really get to know what makes women tick and what would make your particular wife happy and satisfied – in all areas of life, not just sex?

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        1. Yes, and I practice that during courting. I spend hours and hours listening to all kinds of things. Childhood experiences, past relationships, dreams, fears, hopes… everything. And then I put together a plan to address it during the courting. Usually this means that I will try to lead the woman. If she follows, then not only will she be much happier because she is getting constructive attention and results, but she will also be able to see how I lead and whether she likes it or not, so that she can know whether to put me in the leadership role as her husband.

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          1. As a married woman I think once you’re married you’ll find a difficulty in this task. My husband and I had been together five years before we became engaged. He was always attentive and loving, but keep in mind women aren’t a machine with a mechanical system. He is still learning to be a satisfying husband. Women don’t just have one way, we have many different sequences.

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      3. What I read in Glenn’s post was that his wife actually WAS willing to do these things; even if not right away, she did them nonetheless and therefore; You are both correct!

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    2. You are truly inspiring and I am glad to see there are men like you in the world, Glenn.

      Most relationships I have been in or come across seem to lack freedom of choice at a certain stage – Both parties to blame, I can openly admit. (It’s like we’re all encouraged nowadays to be selfish, aggressive and demanding as opposed to kind, loving, giving and forgiving – which is GOD’s basic definition of Love in 1 Corinthians 13.)

      We can sometimes forget it is two people involved. But freedom of choice, cooperation and compromise – which ties into honesty & good listening skills can make all the difference.

      Don’t get me wrong, I admire a man with his own values and opinions, but nobody is perfect/ all-knowing except GOD, so until we learn to respect each other and work together as a team, be willing to change, adapt and learn from each other… how can we claim to truly love?

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  8. I have to comment on this and I don’t mean any offense by this. I admire you’re stance on courtship and chivalry even if I personally would not be interested in it.

    I have been (happily) married for 10 years. This has required a lot of compromise on both sides. Your courtship and your plan after marriage seem entirely focused on your needs, your values and what YOU feel god wants you to do. Your spouses needs, wants and goals seem to be of much less importance. I know some marriages work well in a christian home with the man leading the way and the woman following and being supportive. But i think you’re cheating yourself out of a lot of great (potential) women by requiring them to take a back seat. You may find a great women who is disinterested in guns and apologetics or who wants a career in secular or religious circles. How do you know that god may not want you to find such a woman in order to learn more humility, compromise and balance in your life? Just a thought.

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  9. @Wintery Knight.
    You thought much about the things you wrote in your blog. It is nice to know that are still guys who set standards for themselves in this area of courtship and marriage. God bless. May Jesus give you the woman who’s best for you and even more than what you asked for..

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    1. Ha! I was offered the chance to hold hands with one my girl friends last month and I turned her down. (She said that not holding hands was “puritanical”!) We were not in the courting phase, but probably getting close to it. It’s so funny because we had spent so much time together canoeing, hiking and doing these long face to face discussions that I had just built up this urgent desire to hug her. But rules are rules! Things have cooled off completely since then so I am glad that I made that decision. It’s amazing how long, long periods of eye-contact talking day after day had such a powerful effect on me.

      I am normally a cold, calculating, dark machine, hence “wintery knight”. But if I spend long periods of time being myself and disagreeing with a woman with impunity, that triggered these feelings of wanting to hug her or slow dance with her. And we were not even courting! Was I surprised! One moment I was listening to her tell me about the Tom Sowell books she had been reading, and coldly ticking off her progress in my notebook. The next minute “SHAZAM” – this strong desire to sing to her and cling tightly to her. The ability of a woman to listen to a man’s deepest feelings, and disagree heatedly with him about it in a rational and evidential way, really has a powerful effect on men. It’s the experience of being recognized and understood.

      What does Kent say in King Lear after he is recognized by the King’s daughter Cordelia for his extraordinary service to the King, even after the King has exiled him? He says “To be acknowledged is to be overpaid”. Acknowledgement, recogition and respect are powerful, powerful tools that a woman can use to make a man like her. The more books she reads on things that men experience, like apologetics, and things that men fear, like losing their children in a divorce, the more the she can understand and recognize him. It has a huge, huge effect on the relationship to talk about these things for long periods of time. Especially when we are talking about what progress she is making on reading and learning and what she would like to study next.

      The best thing a woman can do to make a man like her is to talk about what he wants to accomplish for God, and then to take appropriate steps to help him do that. If a woman recognized my vision and then did something like organize a visit from a recognized apologist to her church to lecture or debate, or showed the intelligent design videos from Illustra Media in her church, or if she wanted to invite my co-workers to tea to watch me fight, that would really work. She has to understand what I am trying to accomplish and want to help.

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      1. It’s like you were doing everything by the book, which is really cute because all of the sudden, you realized; things don’t always work that way! This post was so long ago, I’ll bet you are happily married by now. If so, God bless your marriage!

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      2. Wintery Knight,
        I admire your strength and courage in guarding your heart to make a wise decision. you definitely have the right idea about a marriage being for the glory of God, but please don’t lose sight that God places desires on our hearts that should not be dismissed. I do not mean to dismiss the truth about God’s word, I just mean sometimes it is a benefit to let go and let God. We can’t possibly fully control our own lives and be that calculating. for example, Mary didn’t know she would carry the son of God but she said yes to His plan and as a result, the world is saved! She had it right. be still and know that He is here. Follow the truth and you will find God and his marvelous plan for you.

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  11. I wish more men thought like this, maybe the divorce rate would drop drastically and the family would mean more to both men and women that respect and love each other.

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  12. “a woman wins the heart of a man if she is willing to listen to him, learn about his needs as a man, and his vision to serve God, and then work hard to recognize and support all that.”

    I agree with Craig in that your “evil plan” puts a lot of focus on your needs and none on your partner’s needs.

    you say you want a woman who listens to you, does what you say, and prepares meals for you (among many other things).

    would you, in turn, listen to your wife’s ideas and support them, do what she told you to, cook meals for her and take care of the kids while she’s at the university teaching?

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    1. Thanks again for providing us with another good comment. I appreciate a different point of view that contains no spelling mistakes and requires no editing.

      I just want to say two things. First, obviously I disagree 100%. Second, my plan isn’t about my needs, it’s about giving something nice to God. So my future wife would not really be interested in catering to my needs so much as she would be intelligently encouraging and supporting the plan. For example, read the post about whether Christians should marry non-Christians, which is about the wife of the number one Christian scholar and debater in the world today. This guy was pretty satisfied with one MA, but his wife kept encouraging and supporting him to do two MAs and two PhDs. Not for his own good, but so that God’s reputation in the world would benefit from having an able defender.

      That may sound bad to you, but there is not a man on the planet who would not die for such a wife. Some women want to be loved by a good man, and they know what to do to get that love (i.e. – not compete with him, obstruct him and subvert him).

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    1. I accept your apology, on the condition that you feel free to comment on any post you want. I’m thinking of writing one for Tuesday about how a woman can get a man to like her without using sex appeal. I’ve actually had it done to me, and it works!

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  14. A more self-centered post I have never read. May the Lord send you the complete opposite of that which you have outlined so you will learn that the world does not revolve around you and teach you that women have goals and visions as well and might like support for them.

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    1. I already get lots of those and I stay clear of them. They’re called feminists and their views are anti-Christian and anti-family. Women are created to be helpers, not to control men like little boys.

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  15. Wives were indeed “formed” to help their husbands because God in His wisdom knows they need help. If your wife/girlfriend is fulfilling her God-ordained helping, she will tell you that your narcissitic attitude is less than Christian.

    And you would do well to respond to her Godly observation in this area of your life and repent of your pride.

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    1. If you’re going to throw around these ridiculous feminist accusations, why don’t you at least try inserting a Bible verse or two to back up your position that his philosophy is narcissistic. Just citing God’s name without taking any trouble to make sure you’re actually speaking for him is using his name in vain.

      As far as I’m concerned, Wintery’s plan is too NICE to women.

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      2. Hey Mr Wintery Knight what you published there makes a lot of sense and that’s the kind of guy I’m looking for, who can respect me and my religion.

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  17. I have to ask, where is God’s sovereign will in your vision and goal. You’ve left no room for the Holy Spirit to guide you. You have everything mapped out and planned out, but you’ve left out the essential. God desire’s mercy and it doesn’t appear that you have any.

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    1. Just scanning the combox because someone read MY article you linked here through Neil’s site, and wanted to make it clear that I am NOT the Marie who left the comment here. :) I am the Marie from theo-geek blog.

      Hope no one (Glenn; Neil; Wintry Knight) saw this and thought it was me. Carry on!

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  18. Greetings from Africa! Thank you for the post, it has been very thought provoking for many people.

    I have to agree somewhat with Marie. While reading this, especially your vision, the same question was running through my mind: “Where is God’s sovereign will in your vision and goal?”

    Now, it’s entirely possible that God has told you to pursue academics and teaching, and that you should pursue leadership in the church and in public office. If that’s the case, great. Reading it, though, it seems like a man-made plan. “…my plan isn’t about my needs, it’s about giving something nice to God.” It’s good to know that the plan is not about your needs, however, this idea of “giving something nice to God” is pretty dangerous theologically. I believe that all of our righteous works, at least ones that we try to do ourselves, are like filthy rags before the Lord. (Is 64:6) Now you might say, “But I have the Spirit. That’s from the old testament where men didn’t have the Spirit of God, and they weren’t following God.” And it’s true, but that same evil flesh that was in those people still lives in us today, and if it is one’s own plan that they are executing, and not God’s plan, then I believe the plan is as a filthy rag.

    God prepares good works in advance for us to walk into. (Eph 2:10) This means that we have to be listening to God for what those works are, where we should go, etc. I don’t think that we stumble into these works by following our own plans.

    There are some good things in your plan, but has God really told you that He wants you to do all of those things, or did you think of them yourself? I think it comes through in your language, you refer to it as “my plan” instead of God’s plan for my life.

    It’s worth noting, when speaking with a Christian man from a village near where I’m working, we’ve often spoke about his future. He’s very quick to tell me that he doesn’t know where God will have him after this next step, which is Bible college. It’s really interesting though, he doesn’t make plans that God doesn’t tell him. His plan is to follow God’s plan. Wintery Kinght, I hope that you listen and hear from God and do what He tells you.

    I suppose I should write something about the topic, eh? It’s good to see someone rejecting the world’s dating process. It’s good that you’re guarding your heart against the whole physical things. I hope that you also guard the hearts of the women you spend time with from the emotional things.

    Lastly, the post by Mary Ann where she not-so-kindly states that women have goals and visions too which you wrote off as being feminist, I disagree. It’s not feminist for women to have goals and visions for their lives. Any godly woman who has been called to singleness serves as an example here, and there are many in missions. They all have visions for their lives which God has given them, and those visions don’t involve a man. I think it’s good for a man to be keeping an eye out for a woman who has the same vision and direction as he does.

    In the end though, God will tell you who to marry, or if you should be single. All you have to do is listen and trust that His choice is the best.

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  19. Hi and i’m Craig and i’m 17. I thought i knew what love was but after reading this i honestly don’t. I wish i knew what love was and how to show a girl i love her. The only thing that goes through my mind when i’m with this girl is that i want to kiss her but after reading this it’s just changed the way i think of everything i’m happy i read this it’s got me thinking and well now i know what to do, when to do it and what not to do in a relationship.

    There is a lot of good points said here and that has changed the way i think of friendship and relationships.

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  20. Here’s a quote I learned this weekend: if you don’t love someone, you don’t really know them. That, of course, is about love on the highest of all possible levels: the one in which you love because that’s what God does. I’m sure someone in this post will jump on me and say that’s not true, but John says “God is Love” and if you spend your time learning what that means, it will lead you in the right direction.

    That includes love with an “L,” including “love thy neighbor” and “love thine enemy.” Sometimes, women can seem like one or the other. Love your fellow man as God does and chances are, you’ll learn what love is–a day at a time. It’s the living of it that’s important, by the way, not the getting. Are you loving? That’s all that matters. Just don’t be a doormat. God doesn’t ask us to do that!

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  21. Yes, a little humility might do you some good. The Bible says, in separate places, that all our good deeds are as dirty rags (ie, menstrual rags, and trust me, once you’re married you’ll find out just how gross they are!) and that whatever you’ve done for the “least” of people, you’ve done for Jesus. So, take a moment to think about whether getting a PhD and running for office is really “nicer” than volunteering at a soup kitchen or organizing a stuffed animal drive for children in foster care.

    Also, remember that our plans to do things for God might not always be the same as God’s plans for us. For example, God might have you marry a wonderful, loving woman who can’t have children. Or a woman who’s physically disabled and can’t care for children or cook meals for guests. Or a woman who has a learning disability and can’t debate apologetics or even read an entire book on the subject. Or a woman who has a chronic illness that leaves you with no money to fund research or time and energy to run for office. The person you end up marrying can be the exact opposite of the kind of person you think you want, and you can look back and think, “Why did I want someone so unlike her?”

    PS. Don’t worry about the sex. There are plenty of resources written from a Christian perspective on the issue, but it boils down to the fact that if you learn to please your wife in bed, she’ll want to have sex with you and please you back, and it will be amazing. Even the idea of having sex with my wife if she was to hate it or only consider it her “duty” is completely repulsive to me. Also, forget the “guy things” idea, because I know women who love competitive sports, guns, and fast cars, and that has no bearing on how they feel about sex.

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  22. Thanks Wintery Knight for so clearly stating your thoughts and opinions regarding this issue.

    As I skimmed through the comments (beginning at the top) the question which continually came to mind as I read was — “How old is this guy??” Having found the answer in your posts (mid-30’s), all I can say is…

    “Many are the plans in the mind of a man but it is the purposes of the Lord which will be established.”

    If I did not wholeheartedly believe that – as one who has been walking with Jesus for many years, I could not (in peaceful conscience) encourage any God-fearing friend of mine to marry anyone who holds to such idealism.

    Personally, I think your heart is in the right place but a good part of your future vision is so self-centered that it only causes me to glorify God more and more that I am single.

    I think Glen & Craig’s thoughts are more in line with the things that I have seen and been blessed to learn but life is long and I am praying that the Holy Spirit will have His way in your life (in an even deeper way than you perceive currently).

    In closing,

    “Perhaps I am a little more demanding than most because I am aiming for a higher level of intimacy.”

    And perhaps not… but you can continue to believe this (if it suits you…) But consider that real intimacy is more about seeing INTO the OTHER person (rather than pressing them to see into you). It is a sweet invitation for you (the giver and eventual receiver) to place some of your own “stuff” in the background, come…sup with “the other” and drink deeply of who they are so that you CAN reach that place of deeper intimacy.

    That’s what Jesus does with us… Everyday.

    Everyday He calls us to come, spend time with Him. Drink of His word. Know His ways. Embrace who He is (in prayer and sacrifice) knowing that, in so doing, we get, not only to know Him more deeply but also to know oneself.

    I am sorry, my brother. I was not able to see much of a shadow of His invitation in the plan you presented… But if it works for you, be blessed. (I do hope that your “she” will end up getting what she needs from it also.)

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    1. This is a beautiful post. It also reminds me of Mother Teresa’s contemplation of Jesus’s words on the cross; “I thirst’. Jesus thirsts for our love. Every single person in existence! Your vision of “drinking” of His word is one of the most beautiful things I ever heard. I love the chalice of His blood sacrifice; with such profound and intimate meaning of our Lord Jesus’s desire for perfect closeness with us! Thanks be to God!

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  23. Really a lot of what Wintery Knight wrote sounded outdated, like something from another age. The age of chivalry perhaps, where a woman’s wrist could not be exposed and she might faint from the “vapors.” I mean, come on, this is 2010! You will be lucky to find a woman who doesnt insist on telling YOU what you have to do to get her to marry you. YOU will have to cook the breakfast and feed it to her in bed! Not saying this is ideal, I am a male also, but I just dont see any of your ideas as being realistic. Life is realistic. You might find someone who will pretend to go along with your ideas to get a green card or something but I dont see any real women lining up for marriage. Also, you are 35. Thats actually getting late, most women will probably think something is wrong with you not being married already and give you the kazoo. Women get the men that they want not the other way around. Read their magazines, get a clue.

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  24. I was actually looking up courtship customs on the internet, because I was interested in the history and development of love and relationships.

    What enthralled me was the difference. Even if much of it is written out as a logical guideline to life.. There is so much love in it. Waiting, patience, virtue, committment.

    Mariage is both sacred and beautiful, a binding of two souls. And most people consider those two beings to be “soul mates,” then why should they have any other before eachother?

    I think love is endless, boundless, and “God” or whoever it is in the universe that creates, is the source of that. We can’t exactly taint “God” because that energy is perfect, what we do do, though, is drown opportunities we could’ve had within our lives. But I do not think our hearts are limited to one person. I think they are filled throughout our lives, with all kinds of loves. Some more shallower than others, but many running deep and true, and constant: like within families (sometimes), etc., etc..

    The strictness, I see it as a confinement on freedom, but as a kind of lead, also- bringing one closer to his or her own personal goal. Friendship may be found everywhere, not solely in a handful of people. But that handful of people is TRUE friendship- real and lasting, not flitting away with the time, but a kind of spiritual bond that may last lifetimes.

    And with so many people in the world, there are many others who share such views considering Christianity, so finding someone akin- it’s only as hard as the hunter decides to make looking for things in the open of fields.

    I did learn much from the passages relating to the man’s needs. Because everyone has needs above the physical, even if we’ve been led to believe otherwise. People need. That is the basic line. People need, and then people desire, it’s important not to confuse the appetites os sexual drive with need, that’s where many people are led astray by eachother and fall into unsatisfying relationships.

    This article has encouraged me to remain true to that man in my future, whoever it may be, because he NEEDS me. Somehow, someway. And I want every part of me to be there for him. Thank you.

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  25. Also, I have to commend Craig and all the other wise responses and advice given.
    I’m glad that people can argue, relate, disagree but yet give each other the freedom to choose, rather than beat each other over the head with the truth.
    I agree with most of the comments that love can be difficult, but it takes two people praying and trying together to make it work…
    GOD bless you all, and thanks for the thought provoking article, Wintery Knight.
    I hope you find what you’re looking for but sometimes GOD’s plans for us are even better than our personal plans for ourselves, because he sees us in ways we don’t see ourselves, and he knew what we needed even before we asked for it (e.g Adam didn’t even know he needed an Eve, yet GOD evaluated him & gave him one, and she was jus right – Not perfect, but just right.) :)

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  26. I found this to be very informative. It has aided me in my definitions of courting since I consider the relationship I have with Christ to be the focal point of my life and live my life as a disciple (deny myself, pick up my cross, and follow Him) vs. the average American church goer who is more concerned with “the American Way of death”.

    Btw, I am more concerned with Christian apologetics for Christians than the secular realm.

    Christian Courting as described here is for the following:

    1. Real Christians who put God first in their thought, life, words, words, and actions
    2. Very safe and highly educated set of rules to distinguish between a casual church member vs. one who has a real relationship with Jesus.
    3. They are biblical based and are historically proven over the centuries(actual history).

    Most people don’t understand what “normal” Christan discipleship is ( ie. Watchman Nee, Sadhu Sundar Singh, Oswald Chambers etc) and the demands of it.

    In addition, the typical American view on dating is hypergamous, hedonistic, materialistic, venal and dangerous (physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually due to the lack of self control).

    What was presented was to simply test Compatibility and Character within the Judeo/Christian framework in a very efficient and ethical manner.

    If you are put off by it (ie chaste dating /courting) and the position taken as the woman is the “help-mate” then chances are you are not aware of the scripture in the bible, the history of dating, and don’t realize that is not about “her” and “her needs” (ie feminism ) – ITS ABOUT GOD FIRST !!!!!!!

    Any woman who really puts God first in her life will have found her knight and WN will have found his wife and treat her like a queen ( reading the bible, studying the history of dating/courting and watching the “Taming of the Shrew”) .

    Btw, I have to applaud him for keeping a open mind since most people are not going to be as educated as he is ( he never mentioned educational requirements). This indicates a real openness to Gods will.

    Keep it up and thank you for your incredible insight.

    Blessings in Christ.

    Mike

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    1. Thanks for this excellent comment, Mike. You nailed it. This post is about people conducting relationships with the view that God is the customer of the relationship.

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      1. Thank you.

        Btw, here are further thoughts on the matter and a very simple guideline.

        5 C’s –
        Christian
        Commitment (to Christ/me)
        Compatibility
        Character
        Connection

        Thanks again !!!

        Mike

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    2. Amen to all of the above! I think people have forgotten that the purpose of a relationship is to glorify God.
      By the way, props on referencing Watchman Nee and the Taming of the Shrew.
      Also, for more great insight on Discipleship I would recommend the Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. It’s incredible.

      God bless!
      V

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  27. Hi Wintery Knight,
    I just wanted to thank you for posting your views on this. A couple of my dearest friends have recently made the decision to change their “dating” relationship to one of “courtship” and I was looking for resources that could help them and happen to stumble upon your site.
    As a Christian woman it can be hard not to be overcome by the idea that nobody shares these same views. I was encouraged by the fact that you articulated them so well. I was especially encouraged to see how your views denote the significance of emotional purity and didn’t merely focus on things physical. In many ways a body can be much easier to guard than a heart.
    Furthermore, I am very appreciative of the way in which you emphasized the importance of being an intellectual as a Christian. Many “Christians” today have seemingly forgotten that God gave us brains for a reason and that curiosity and intelligence are not meant to be stifled, but rather to delve into the mysteries of God.
    All in all, I was blessed by your post and I pray that God continues to use you to be a light to those who don’t know Him and an encouragement to those who do.
    May God bless you in whatever He has in store for your life and may you continue to walk with Him. :)

    In Him,
    V

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  28. Loosten up brother! A woman who is held in the confines of your lists may crumple under the pressure of your expectations. I respect your intense thought on the subject but you might consider discussing some of these things with your girl of interest rather than laying down the law so strictly without her input. Discussion of what is best for you and THE OTHER PERSON is vital to any relationship especially one with the prospects of marriage. Certainly there are things that should not be compromised and lines that should be drawn before entering any relationship but your control is a little stifling and your expectations daunting. Let go of things that don’t matter so things that are truly important to your relationship can be cultivated. Stressing about the details could get in the way of knowing and discovering heart (not just her mind). No woman just wants to be studied like quantum physics. They want to be known, they want their hearts to be continually uncovered, explored and wondered over. Props for keeping high standards and boundaries for things that are important but loosen up on the detailed rules! Relationships are meant to be glorifying to God but also enjoyable and life giving. Don’t stifle these important qualities with being so controlling that you loose the beautiful spontaneity of life my friend! Let God lead. Pray as you go, seek his face and his counsel…LIVE and rejoice in the Lord always and again I say REJOICE!

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  29. Are you still looking for a godly wife? I am looking for a godly husband (I’m a future Christian homemaker) and I’m a black baptist, if that matters to you. I dress very modestly.

    I’m also American.
    Age is not a big deal for me but your a smidgeon older than me. (Okay…more than a smidgeon.)

    God bless you on that search for a godly (and submissive) wife.

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  30. Wintery. I am would like to ask you a personal question. I appreciate your approach to many topics. As subscribers we have been given a some impressions into what you are as a person. Largely a very devote believer. I wonder if people have ever suggested to you that you have Aspergers as there are many attributions that overlap with others with the condition.Let me say what has me suggest this,going to work when sick is not what most people do. the fact too that you work in a field in which there are many on the spectrum.As well as your very high standard of personal integrity.

    I do not mean mischief but there is a higher probability that the other reason you are not married and the length of time you have taken so far( and waiting which is good) is attributable to your way of being by itself. The most males contemplating the world of relationships with the opposite do not approach it in the same way as your approach. they use a rough heuristic, they get along with this gal and just want to aim for the moon, instead of using rule based approach which aspies commonly used for decision making in many different areas including ones which rules are difficult to apply, where contact is loose, non-formal, non-linear and contextual, for instance men/women relationships.

    Most aspies have a greater preference for hierarchical relationships, parent and child, boss and employee, Relationships where the partners are peer based are more difficulty. Attested for the by high rate of divorce and singleness among aspies. I hope you will not take offence at my question..Being an aspie is cool for me from my lived in experience.
    Keep up the posts, I am really enjoying them..

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    1. No, I don’t have anything like that. I’m actually an athlete and played on sports teams in high school, so not clumsy. The other thing is that I have extremely high empathy for others, including animals. I think nothing of talking to people for 8 or 9 hours, and I once kept a lady up all night talking. And in my field, I am expected to lead groups of people on projects and attend meetings and give speeches, so no trouble there. Lastly, I have this blog where I write a lot. Wouldn’t it be funny if I had an odd way of using language since I spend much of my time writing out these long posts. I’ve also had to publish research publications and present them at conferences – more social interactions! I love presenting things. My company also makes me interview job applicants.

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    2. Lol… this is a pretty funny indirect ad hominem comment.
      Consider the Apostle Paul for a a moment.
      He was a highly educated Pharisee along with a elite social status of being born a Roman citizen. He was given incredible insight from transitioning from the Law of Moses to the Law of Life in the Spirit and wrote the bulk of the New Testament. He was vehemently attacked by the religious, political, and secular crowd which resulted in his beating, imprisonment, and death. In addition, the actual apostles didn’t understand him (2 Peter 3:15-16) and he stood against them (Gal 2:11-16).

      It is very possible for everyone to be wrong and one person to be right – the bible is FULL of examples like these.

      Paul could have chose a wife, children, and a promising career but went the other direction of winning Christ.

      Remaining chaste and waiting on Jesus brings no disappointment – to do otherwise is to invite heartache, pain, and a “Ishmael” of circumstances.

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  31. Speaking from a womans perspecitve. Relationship boundaries are necessary as a Christian, but really it seems as if you are not giving your future wife permission to be who God wants her to be. There are alot of rules and obstacles.
    You need to consider that although scripture says He who finds a wife,.. that ultimately she is making the choice by accepting or declining.
    Based on what you say about your future wife and children you are very rigid and a strict disciplinarian. The Bible calls the man to love her as God loved the church. Sacrificially is your part and if you truly follow that principle then you can see that although you have a plan or guideline with a wife and her vision,.because women do have vision for their lives as well, there is no room for compromise.
    Based on my perspective you would not be a loving husband but one concerned about his own needs. From this I deduce that you will probably end up with a wife unwilling to submit to you for passion. This is a recipe for disaster and I ask that you prayerfully consider allowing God to help you in your search and to help you be a good husband.
    When the man puts his wifes needs above his own he opens the door for her to blossom. If not she will be angry and resentul.
    It seems logical but it is not going to work.

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    1. You might might to go back and re-read the scriptures in context since you mentioned a husband should love his wife as Christ loved the church. Btw, Christ mentioned that if you love Him, you will obey His commandments.
      This is further seen in the context of the scriptures:
      -Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
      1 Peter 3 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
      2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also…adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

      Yes a man who finds a woman who will obey Christ and her husband does find a good thing as woman who finds a man who obeys Jesus and gives himself to Christ first and her second. It is a very simple reciprocal relationship – anything else invites a predictable outcome based on the law of reaping and sowing.

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      1. Wintery, be careful with this. As a husband, it is NOT your job to enforce submission. In fact, that wouldn’t be submission at all.

        Submission is a very difficult trait to find in a wife, and I’m very blessed by the behavior of my own wife. But there are limits. A wife should submit to her husband in biblical areas, but once we move outside scripture, we enter into the area of legalism. Speaking as a member of the legalist club, which you’d likely be a part of as well, this is something we need to fight against.

        Above all, remember these two things. Girlfriends are NEVER called to submit to a boyfriend. Females either submit to their father, or their husband. Therefore, this piece will need to be evaluated by the girl’s dad rather than you. Or by you watching her interact with her dad. She should not submit to a boyfriend. Second and likely more important, Your wife will submit to you as she sees you model submission to Christ. Ephesians 5 makes that clear. You lead, she follows. As you lay down your life for her, over and over, in big and small things, she will follow in submission to you. The order here is important.

        I would strongly advise all people reading this post, and interested in this subject to pick up a copy of Voddiee Baucham’s book, What he must be…if he wants to marry my daughter. It’s a great read. Baucham is (rightly) a complementarian, but he brings balance to the concepts of submission. I HIGHLY recommend this book.

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  32. Kevin, I agree with you – one cant force submission. However, it is quite often in a woman best interest to submit. It is a edict given in the Garden of Eden. Btw, remember Lots wife ?

    Also, the term “legalism” is not applicable. I dont see how observing certain aspects of Torah in the writings of the apostle Paul can apply. However, if you are referring to how “legalism” in reference to applying the scriptures with the guidance of the Spirit ( ie doing what the scripture says – than I guess I am a “legalist”).

    I suggest you might want to go back and re-read the scriptures- partial submission isn’t a option (withstanding illegal, imoral, or unholy behavior).
    Most men or women will look for any excuse not to obey. There is a reason why Paul and Peter wrote nearly the identical commandements.
    To enter the Kingdom- one has to be a little child and gentle as a dove while being shrewd as a serpent. Disciples of Jesus show their love by obeying His commandments. If one doesnt obey His commandments then that person doesnt love Him nor are they His disciple.

    Eph 5″ Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.”
    1 Peter 3 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives—

    Any wife who submits to the Lord will submit to her husband. Any husband who submits to the Lord will sacrifice for his wife.
    A unbelieving husband can be won by by a womans conduct.
    Again, to suggest submission is conditional in a Christian household is neither scriptural nor in context of the bible. Please feel free to share scriptures.
    Btw, If one thinks this is incorrect, then try conditional obedience with Jesus.

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    1. I should have clarified the limits I meant.

      When a man tells his wife to submit to something outside the bible (we’re going hunting, for example) that’s not really what the call to submission is about. And I believe it’s pretty defensible to frame it as legalism. It’s a rule that a man has made, where God has not made one. Certainly that line has some grey in it (how high does a top have to be before it’s “modest”).

      Submission is far too easily used to justify a controlling husband’s behavior. And we have a tendency towards that role. That’s also clear in Gen 3 “But he will rule over you”. That’s phrase isn’t meant in a good way. It’s meant as “he will be an overbearing domineering tyrant, seeking to completely rule over you.” For men, this is a characteristic that we need to be aware of, and fight against. THIS should be our primary focus and struggle. Our wife’s refusal to submit should remind us of this fact. She struggles with submission, we struggle with domination. Both are wrong, and both need to be battled against. Since domination is MY tendency, and since I can only allow change in myself, this should be my target.

      Perhaps a better way to say this, would be that submission will happen as a result of the husband submitting to Christ, and sacrificing for his wife. As men, that should be far more the area of concern for us. Men are told to love their wives because that’s often hard. Rather than placing so much focus on the wife’s heart – which is important, don’t get me wrong – we need to recognize that as men, we aren’t anywhere close to perfect, and we need to spend far more attention to the log the log of harshness that we tend towards than to the splinter of unsubmissiveness that may exist in our wives. FIRST take the log out of your own eye… (Matt 7) Our log as men is that of control. My advice to a woman would be to look for a man who is seeking to address his own issues first. That would also be my advice to a man evaluating a woman.

      Both genders struggle with sin. The sin tendency will be different for each gender. The main priority for every Christian should be to work to address our own sin first, and the sin of another second.

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  33. Gentlemen,

    The prophetic words God speaks to Adam and Eve prepare them for the negative, adverse, and unfortunate conditions they will face upon leaving the perfect environment of the garden designed specifically for them. Life will be difficult with challenges that were not present in the garden.

    So we struggle against the enmity God put between the woman and the serpent (15); we can struggle against pain in childbirth with medication; (16) we can struggle against the thorns and thistles God said would grow by using mulch and weed killer (18); we can incorporate other food into the diet God said Adam should be herbs and plants; (18) men must have a career which enables them to sweat- no air conditioned jobs; (19) we can struggle against death with modern life-saving developments; (19)

    These are all adverse, negative conditions which mankind has made considerable positive progress in overcoming. BUT …. to separate ½ of a verse from among the negatives and interpret it as a positive is to ignore the very challenge or prophetic warning that was intended to be overcome exactly as the others. Man’s human nature is power and control over others. This is an adverse human trait which Jesus emphasized when he said its one the gentiles desire, but it shall not be so with you. (Matt. 20:25) We are to be servants to one another minus the desire to rule over one another. Submitting ourselves to one another is the direct result of the new birth…we are new creations who do not have the same desires as the secular world.

    Please do not use Genesis 3 as a foundation for anything positive or good. The outcome of the fall left nothing but negative, challenging conditions which we must overcome.

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    1. You missed what I said there. I didn’t mean to imply anything positive in the “he will rule over you” aspect, and I had attempted to make that really clear. Sorry that I wasn’t clear enough in my post, but certainly, there’s no question, it isn’t a good thing.

      Men SHOULD rule with women. They don’t. They rule over them.

      Men suffer in terms of work and providing. Women suffer in terms of relationships.

      The curse isn’t a good thing in any way, for either gender.

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  34. The outcome of the fall proved a couple things :
    – God means exactly what He says (good thing)
    – Obedience brings life (another good thing)
    – Man truly lives by the Word of God(lesson learned-hard way)

    Quite often one has to lose something in order to learn its value. At least man was given a plan of redemption (Lucifer and his compadres have no such chance).

    Man was given authority because of females weaker power of reasoning (not to use it as a means of abuse). To women was given the ability of fruitfulness (not to use it as a means of abuse- which has been with seen with entrapment and frivolous divorce).

    Arthur Schopenhauer wrote a excellent article “Of Women” which make a valid observation:

    ” A man reaches the maturity of his reasoning powers and mental faculties hardly before the age of twenty-eight; a woman at eighteen. And then, too, in the case of woman, it is only reason of a sort–very niggard in its dimensions. That is why women remain children their whole life long; never seeing anything but what is quite close to them, cleaving to the present moment, taking appearance for reality, and preferring trifles to matters of the first importance.”

    Obedience is key. God has established all authority – ALL – whether it is perfect or not. It is a meant to be instructional through application from God all the way down to children. Another way to look at it – what are your thoughts on subjective/partial obedience of children to their parents ?
    Might want to re-read the context.

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    1. FYI, Michael.

      You would never be given the green light to court my daughter.

      Women are absolutely the equal of men. My experience has been that my wife is frequently smarter than I am.

      Nowhere in the Bible does it say women have weaker powers of reasoning or that men have superior powers there. Men were given authority because that’s how God designed it. As far as capabilities, I’d simply ask if you thought that Jesus also has weaker powers of reasoning, since he is submissive towards the father. Your reasoning simply isn’t biblical. The closest support you’ll find for this is the statement that “Eve was deceived”. Which is just another way to say that Adam’s sin was a willful choice his own desires (for his wife’s approval) over God’s revealed will.

      Even the fruitfulness aspect isn’t really correct. In Genesis 1, God tells THEM (male and female) to be fruitful and multiply. Women alone are able to have children, nor is that in line with God’s design for a family.

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  35. Forgiveness and repentance is reciprocal relationship – so is submission and sacrifice – it should be heart felt and harmonious.

    Dont shot the messenger on this but history, medical science, and the holy scriptures offer the following:

    Medical Science & History:
    Women have throughout the centuries have been clinically diagnosed with “hysteria” from the time of Plato up until the 1970’s. From there is has been sub-classified to schizophrenia, conversion disorder, and anxiety attacks.
    This is why women were not allowed to vote, hold office, and jury duty till the last century

    In addition, Theodore Dalrymple – “Life at the Bottom” which is available on WK’s site somewhere is a great read.

    Scriptures:
    Ecclesiastes 7:28 was written by a man gifted in wisdom & 1 Peter 3:6 as Sarah was obedient to Abraham, calling him ‘sir,’ of whom ye did become daughters, doing good, and “not fearing any terror”.

    Notice “not fearing any terror” – One can interpret that anyway they wish- but history, science, and scriptures show that women are given to illogical / ill-timed outbursts of hysteria due to overwhelming situations ( this has been my observation by women a heck of lot more educated than myself ( ie phd, masters etc…)

    There are a couple of scriptures that show women are given to illogical hysteria. Sarah blamed Abraham for Haggar/Ishmeal though it was her idea. Rachel blamed Jacob for her childlessness.

    To say they are equal is mis-leading. and unscriptural.
    To the best of my knowledge – God ALWAYS moves from the lesser to the greater. This a IMHO, why God made them weaker and commanded them to be submissive – it is AGAINST their nature. Women will naturally unsurp a man given the opportunity and that always brings havoc ( Gibbons noted this The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire)..

    There are reasons for Pauls stern directions in the Epistles about women and interacting with the Church. Also, why the OT/NT scripture point to the “bride of the Lamb” and not the queen of the Lamb.

    The OT is full of shameful references were women rule over men. In addition, 1 Timothy 2:15 is a noteworthy verse of which should be kept in a Hebrew culture context.

    In terms of dominion and fruitfulness – the Torah and the unspoken name of YHVH (tetragrammaton or יהוה) signify dominion and fruitfulness with the proper emphasis on the masculine and feminine of which is a massive topic (very insightful) and at the deep end of the pool and overlooked by the majority Western Evangelical Christians.
    Yes, women can have children outside of wedlock – it is to their detriment and the brunt of the damage to the child.

    In terms of rulership the scriptural context that is seen in OT/NT is one by invitation only that is based on obedience. Joseph was second to Pharaoh and Jesus always does the Fathers will. Those that are obedient share the throne for the reason of being “like minded” ( I delight to do thy will O’God – thy law is on my heart – The Father is far greater than Jesus and the Father has committed all judgement to Him. They are not equal but the Father has bestowed a incredible honor on the Son). It is the same for men / women till the ressurection of the just then they will be neither male nor female (luke 20:33-37).

    Btw, the reference Arthur Schopenhauer “Of Women” is worth reading “in the entirety” – it offers tremendous insight into strengths / weaknesses of BOTH men & women.

    As for Titan (my collie) and myself (Jewish Christian)- we are chaste confirmed bachelors and “off the market” according to 1 Corinthians 7:26 due to the apostasy & feminism in the western ecclesia.

    Shalom

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  37. Hey thanks for posting this article. Well its true that times have changed quite alot. Its however important for us to realize as christians that He is the unchanging God in changing times. I believe that God did not give us the bible as a book of suggestions so we may argue out with him and settle for a compromise concerning what works best. He gave us the bible and expects us to obey and not negotiate. He is God we are his creation. As a creator He definitely knows what is best for his creation and i believe God gives us his commands for our own good.

    God made men to be leaders in matters of marriage and as a woman you will never get fulfilled by taking on the role of leadership in marriage. Everything that God created is good including my position as a woman. It is important for the man in the relationship to take charge and set the direction of the relationship. It is important for the man to ensure morality is upheld both during courtship and marriage. In our world today your views may sound hursh but the truth is, that is what God expects of us and it is important that we obey to have fulfilled lives.

    You may have the most effective computer but you cant use it as a car and no matter how hard you try, it just wont work as a car and vice versa. Similarly women cannot be effective in leadership roles in marriage because thats just not how God wired them. We can only fulfill our purpose by doing what we were created for otherwise we will end up existing rather than living.

    Diana

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  38. Oh my….Chilvary! Honor! Modesty!
    These things that have been etched into my soul.Sadly I thought such things were extinct.It brings tears to my eyes to know that I am not alone in this.May God bless you Wintery Knight!

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  39. Um, WK. I gotta be honest with you. You’ve always struck me as an honest and modern sensible man. But some of the stuff you write here sounds like a parody of old-fashioned courtships.

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      1. Wintery Kinght,

        I am hoping you will be able to provide more insight to how to appeal to a mans heart rather then his sex drive. I have been relentlessly searching for these kinds of answers but am still not satisfied. How can a man fall in love with a woman while looking past her sex appeal (assuming she is already classy and consciously trying to guard the chastity of both). In other words, I do not want to confuse a man with sex appeal; I want him to love me for who I am and in the end he will be happier because he chose me for me. :)

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        1. There are several way to attract a man who will love you for you, and not just your sex appeal (from a woman who got one of those good men):

          #1) Dress modestly and femininely. Modesty says you aren’t a sex object, but a person with dignity and worth. Femininity says you embrace your role as a woman. And both are attractive to the right kind of man.

          #2) Learn some things worth knowing and don’t be afraid to discuss them with knowledge, confidence, tact, and humility. Examples include science, politics, economics, mathematics, social issues, and history. The more things you know about, the more likely you are to be able to carry on a good conversation on a topic that a good man is interested in – and catch his interest in the process.

          #3) Don’t be afraid to be up front about your plans to be married and have a family. You might be a single woman who has a job or even a place of her own, but if your desire is marriage and a family, say so. Let men know you aren’t a career woman first, but are willing to put your future husband and children over your career goals. Say it to potential mates, but also to friends, family, and co-workers. You never know who might know a great guy.

          #4) Learn to cook. You know what they say about the way to a man’s heart, right? That may be a little bit exaggerated. But in a world full of women who don’t have time to make healthy and tasty meals, a woman who knows her way around a kitchen and doesn’t mind embracing the womanly art of cooking stands out.

          #5) Be supportive. Be an encourager. There’s nothing that will capture a man’s heart faster than a woman who will support and encourage his dreams. Be your man’s biggest fan. Whatever his goals are, find a way to help him achieve them. Even if you are only dating, you can show your support for his goals by asking him about them, listening carefully, giving encouragement, and helping where possible. This not only shows him that you would be on his side in a marriage relationship, but allows you to see whether his goals in life are something you can get on-board with.

          #6) Save physical affection for marriage. Being not only chaste, but physically reserved with men who are not your husband shows that you can control yourself and that you can be trusted to be faithful in marriage.

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          1. Lindsay, thanks for this awesome advice. I especially agree with #2. I feel loved when a woman talks about apologetics, pro-life, pro-marriage, intelligent design, defense policy and fiscal conservatism. That’s when I feel cared for, because I feel that my needs are important.

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          2. Thank you for your insight. I appreciate your comment about feeling cared for when the woman shows your needs are important. So essentially, we need to find out your needs! Aside from observation, what would be the best way to find out the most important things to that person; Asking directly? Are the first few dates an appropriate time to ask these questions?

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          4. Thank you. I have read “The Five Love Languages” but not the other one, so I will read that one. Most of these books are to help people in relationships; not people just starting them. Is there a book you can recommend that would be best for people before entering into a relationship?

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  40. Oh my, this makes me sad, it’s no wonder you haven’t found a woman who would marry you. From what you’ve said it seems that to you marriage is all about you, about your fulfilment and satisfaction. You seem to have no real appreciation or consideration of woman and about marriage being a partnership, two becoming one (not simply the wife becoming one with the husband, it’s mutual).
    It also seems to me that if you’re spending many hours, gazing into a woman’s eyes and talking (you even said you kept a woman up all night) that you are giving yourselves to each other mentally and emotionally and if that relationship comes to an end or if it doesn’t progress into “courtship” then you could be hurting and causing confusion for many women and it sounds like you have no qualms about repeated relationships of this sort. I sincerely hope that those reading this article will have a heart of discernment and not be ensnared into thinking that this is godly or how it should be.
    Wintery, I hope that you will see past your own rules and unrealistic expectations to the wonderful releasing and joyful intentions of the heart of God for marriage and the beautiful future He has for you.

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    1. I hardly think one can make that assessment based on one blog post. It’s not like this one post is the sum total of everything WK believes about marriage.

      “It also seems to me that if you’re spending many hours, gazing into a woman’s eyes and talking (you even said you kept a woman up all night) that you are giving yourselves to each other mentally and emotionally and if that relationship comes to an end or if it doesn’t progress into “courtship” then you could be hurting and causing confusion for many women and it sounds like you have no qualms about repeated relationships of this sort.”

      Gee, it sounds like a woman better never have a conversation with any man who isn’t her husband or she’s going to fall in love right there and be terribly hurt if he doesn’t marry her. Long talks at night are strictly prohibited until after marriage. And looking into someone’s eyes while talking to them (which I thought was just good manners) is a recipe for stealing a woman’s heart and should not be allowed either. Because women are so fragile that merely talking to a man is enough to cause serious emotional bonding and she will be so confused and hurt if marriage is not forthcoming. After all, she TALKED to him. That’s practically a marriage proposal. So, if a man must talk to a woman before they’re married, he must be careful not to look into her eyes or do it at night or do it for more than a few minutes at a time. Got it.

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        1. I’m sure you all have good intentions and it’s all in good fun, but let’s remember we’re Christians and we need to be kind to each other. “T.H.I.N.K” Is it True, helpful, inspiring, necessary or kind? If not, don’t say it.
          God Bless

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    2. You mentioned that it is the woman’s job to “work to win him and having to work to keep him.” At least that is how I understood it. I could see how a woman should be receptive to wanted advances from a man but it is in no way her responsibility to work for affection. It is the opposite really: the man should be in pursuit of the woman’s heart, but she should be so lost in God, that you must be lost in God to find her. It is never her job alone to keep him either. Once a couple has found each other, they become equal partners. This is from Genesis where Eve was made out of Adam’s rib. It was a symbol that she not be trampled under his feet nor be in control of his mind and actions, but rather that it was he who kept her close to her heart. I think you may want to reflect on the man’s obligation to pursue a godly woman. Any godly woman will wait for the Lord to place a man in her life. This contrasts societies idea that women must entertain men to keep their attention or as you say “work to win him” and “work to keep him”.

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  41. Brilliant, but what if your goals are quit different from her goals, aren’t there going to be problem matching both? Secondly, there is a girl, I somuch feel for her but she’s just too young for me, am 25 and she’s 16, is it Appropriate for me to go. Ahead?

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  43. Hi WinteryKnight,
    I was researching about Jewish courtship traditions, until I stumbled here at your blog.

    Reading this post makes me remember my college years, and the male mentors in our organization who drastically think and speak like this. Can’t understand them before, but I now see why they think like that.

    For the past 9 years, were there any changes in these rules?

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