Commentary

What should wives do when they are not in the mood for sex?

102 Comments

Dennis Prager features a lot of discussions about male-female relationships on his show, particularly during the male-female hour. I think this is one of the parts of his show that I really like best, because he knows what he is talking about and has on great female guests like Alison Armstrong.

He did a two part series a while back on 1) male sexuality and 2) what women should do about it within a marriage.

Part 1 is here.

Excerpt:

It is an axiom of contemporary marital life that if a wife is not in the mood, she need not have sex with her husband. Here are some arguments why a woman who loves her husband might want to rethink this axiom.

First, women need to recognize how a man understands a wife’s refusal to have sex with him: A husband knows that his wife loves him first and foremost by her willingness to give her body to him. This is rarely the case for women. Few women know their husband loves them because he gives her his body (the idea sounds almost funny). This is, therefore, usually a revelation to a woman. Many women think men’s natures are similar to theirs, and this is so different from a woman’s nature, that few women know this about men unless told about it.

This is a major reason many husbands clam up. A man whose wife frequently denies him sex will first be hurt, then sad, then angry, then quiet. And most men will never tell their wives why they have become quiet and distant. They are afraid to tell their wives. They are often made to feel ashamed of their male sexual nature, and they are humiliated (indeed emasculated) by feeling that they are reduced to having to beg for sex.

When first told this about men, women generally react in one or more of five ways…

He then explains the 5 ways that women respond to this. I think this whole problem of women not understanding men, of treating men as objects, and of demeaning male feelings and values, is very serious. In my opinion, there is a whole lot of work that needs to be done by women in order to fix this problem.

Part 2 is here.

Excerpt:

Here are eight reasons for a woman not to allow not being in the mood for sex to determine whether she denies her husband sex.

He then explains the eight reasons and then makes a general point about women that I think needs to be emphasized over and over and over. (This is one of the things that makes me not want to marry)

That solution is for a wife who loves her husband — if she doesn’t love him, mood is not the problem — to be guided by her mind, not her mood, in deciding whether to deny her husband sex.

I think he overdoes it in describing how sex-crazed men really are, but he is probably talking about men in general as opposed to Christian men. Christian men have other things that they are trying to do with women, such as influence their worldviews and make them stronger in apologetics.

We have a few brave female commenters on the Wintery Knight blog, and they are all wonderful, so I am wondering whether they are brave enough to comment on this topic. Or maybe they can send me their comments by e-mail and give me permission to post them anonymously instead.

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102 thoughts on “What should wives do when they are not in the mood for sex?”

  1. Here’s my take on this (sorry, I’m not female but hopefully some of your female readers will also comment):

    It doesn’t matter whether wives are in the mood or not, they have an obligation to have sex with their husbands on a fairly regular basis. I first heard of this concept from a Dennis Prager radio interview also with Alison Armstrong entitled “Obligatory Sex”. If you are hearing this for the first time it may sound harsh, but here’s how the concept goes:

    WOMEN need to communicate with their husbands on an emotional level in order to feel close and strengthen their marriage. Therefore a husband has an obligation to communicate at this level with his wife on a regular basis for the sake of building their marriage, EVEN if he really doesn’t feel like it. In general, men seem to have a pretty good understanding of this concept, even if it is unnatural for us to do this.

    In the same way, MEN require sex with their wives in order to feel close and strengthen their marriage. Therefore, similarly, a wife has an obligation to have sex with her husband on a regular basis whether she feels like it or not for the sake of building their marriage. In general, I don’t think women have a good understanding of this concept and need to work on this – primarily due to feminism which teaches that women should only look out for themselves. The ultimate result of not giving this to your husband is not just to depriving him of something that he needs, but it will also deprive both of you of a healthy, happy, and close marriage.

    So “What should wives do when they are not in the mood for sex?”. Well, a good start is to realize that for the sake of your marriage it is irrelevant whether you are in the mood or not.

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    1. I just want to point out that this Andrew is my friend Andrew and his wife Jen is probably the greatest wife and mother on the planet. She volunteers at her church to answer apologetics questions on her night off from being a stay-at-home mom. Seriously. Maybe Michele Bachmann could be better than Jen – but Michele has wings and halo. Jen just has wings. Seriously.

      And I am not just saying that as a metaphor for the way that she responded to Andrew and my efforts to convince her to change her mind about things like legal firearm ownership and the necessity of just wars using rational arguments and evidence. She really has non-metaphorical wings, I tell you!

      If you spend time talking to Andrew and Jen, which is my favorite thing in the world, they will tell you everything you need to know about marriage. They’ve read extensively and they are both engineers with multiple degrees in engineering, each. So they are very rigorous about it, and they’ve forced me to read books about it as well.

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    2. Totally agree with you line of reasoning, but disagree with your conclusion. You mentioned that, “a husband has an obligation to communicate at this level with his wife on a regular basis for the sake of building their marriage, EVEN if he really doesn’t feel like it.”

      Personally I would rather gouge my ears out AND go with out sex rather than have to listen to my wife go on about crap I couldn’t care less about. No sex is that good, it’s just not worth the price.

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    3. >So “What should wives do when they are not in the mood for sex?”. Well, a good start is to realize that for the sake of your marriage it is irrelevant whether you are in the mood or not.

      Ewww, what kind of sex is that?

      In a loving relationship, no man wants to do what his wife doesn’t want. It is a mutual thing, see?

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      1. So when women make their vows at a wedding, according to you, they have no obligations to their husband unless they feel like it. OK.

        I think it is the mainstream feminist view, and it’s important to test a woman during courtship to find out whether they believe they have any obligations to their husbands and children in the marriage, or whether their obligations take a back seat to their feelings.

        How would marriage work if a man just did the same thing as you suggest with his obligations – if men didn’t have to go to work unless they felt like it? And men didn’t have to go shopping if they didn’t feel like it. And men didn’t have to visit in-laws if they didn’t feel like it.

        Withholding sex should be a rare occurrence in a normal marriage, unless the many is physically abusive, or addicted, etc. If women don’t want to have obligations to other people, then they should not get married. Marriage is about serving others, not about a woman squeezing the life out of her husband and children for her own selfish ends.

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        1. Wintery, I’ve read Janine’s post several times and simply can’t find where she says that she thinks marriage should be all about a woman squeezing the life out of a man and that women have no obligations to their husbands.

          Unless she’s using some code only known to yourself, I think you are stretching it a bit. No, you are stretching it way out of proportion.

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  2. Andrew is right on this. However, the problem is that the proverbial Mexican stand-off can occur over this subject.

    Wife never in mood denies sex. Husband retaliates (whether consciously or sub-consciously) but withdrawing emotionally. Wife now is even less in the mood due to the lack of feeling close and safe in the marriage. Husband becomes even more withdrawn and distant. And the cycle continues.

    Also, Andrew you make a great point about feminism. Is it any wonder that the divorce rate has skyrocketed since feminism become the way of life in our modern society? I don’t think it is any wonder, but completely logical.

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    1. The way Andrew and Jen avoid this problem is that they are totally dedicated to loving the other person regardless of how they feel and how well they’ve been treated. They are quite intentional about it. I would think that other couples who don’t practice that will run into problems.

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    2. Thanks for your comment, LoneWolfArcher.

      You are right that if no one does their part then you may have a ‘standoff’, and consequently a very strained marriage. But it’s always good to keep in mind that marriage is not a 50-50 agreement. As a husband or wife you have to constantly give 100% and expect nothing in return. If you do this all the time it is very unlikely that your spouse will not respond favourably.

      My wife and I have our wedding vows posted in our bedroom, and we read them from time to time as a reminder of the committment that we made. I always make sure that I read my OWN vow and ask myself “which of these areas am I not trying hard enough in”, rather than reading my wife’s vow and asking “why isn’t SHE not doing…”.

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  4. Feminism is really a deadly trap and women have to watch out for it. It is not in our interests. It traps us in ways we don’t realize until its too late. It usually rears its head and whispers in our ear: Am I being suppressed? Isn’t he getting everything his way and I’m getting nothing? Aren’t I just serving his needs?

    Women (as a generalization) need to realize that sex is a legitimate NEED of men just as emotional connection is for women. Women want to feel emotionally connected to have sex, men want to have sex to feel emotionally connected. What a mess! If each waits for the other to fill his/her needs first, no one’s needs get met.

    As someone said earlier, marriage is a 100%-100% arrangement. So, figure out which part of it is your 100%! Women, do your best to meet your husband’s need to be close to you through sex and you’ll be amazed at how much better your relationship is. Just ignore the feminist voice and choose to serve him, regardless. I think it would be a very hard hearted man that wouldn’t respond back. And you probably didn’t marry someone with that hard of a heart.

    I wonder if most of us just don’t realize what amazing men we’ve married and how much they deserve our respect and devotion. Maybe it would be a good idea to remember that the next time you are not “in the mood”.

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  5. I quite agree with both Andrew and Jen with what they said. And I’m really against feminism as well since feminism is against the fundamentals taught by the Bible about femininity.

    I can’t comment much on this as my husband and I have some trouble in this area but what I can say though is that sex does bring a relationship closer and it really does strengthen a marriage. People need to remember that sex was given to married couples as a gift from God – if it’s not pleasing and good, why would God give it as a ‘gift’?

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  6. First of all, the male feelings and reading of sex within marriage is not news to me; my husband and I discuss such things and understand them from each others perspectives as well as our own. Further if you have ever attended a Christian wives or a couples conference you tend to hear it in those places too. It makes sense, it should be respected and not flippantly cast aside or belittled.

    So for me at least the problem is not lack of understanding. The problem is that deciding to have sex on the basis of understanding this, when you do not feel like it, is that it can cause more problems in the marriage as it solves others.

    First of all, despite knowing otherwise, a woman can still feel like she is being used as a sex object. This is because she is lying there having sex despite not feeling remotely into it. One person is enjoying it, the other is not, she wonders how he can enjoy it knowing she is not. Surely a man would prefer to know his wife is as into it as he is? (This is how women think, so even if we understand how it works for men, we still have our own brains and thought processess to override).

    Having sex regularly when you do not feel like it means that one’s overall experience of sex is very so so. Sex can be a very beautiful, mystical, exciting and sensual thing and there is a sense in which you devalue that when you ask a woman to treat it like a ritual or just another thing you do with your body to please your husband like ironing his shirts of cooking his dinner.

    Women tend to struggle more than men do with enjoying sex and reaching climaxs. If their view of sex or their experience of it is that sexual fulfillment happens rarely it can create a catch 22 cycle if the woman engages in sex that does little for her. Women have to be mentally turned on to be physically turned on, their minds have to be engaged before their bodies can be and that can be a difficult thing to achieve. It is made even more difficult if their experience is that sex usually results in his satisfaction and not mine.

    It is easy to say just make yourself do it, but you can end up feeling like a frigid whore and that puts you off sex more – it perpetuates the problem even if the husband feels better in the short term.

    I think a far better solution to this problem is instead of just focussing on what women need to learn about men, both parties should learn and understand how each approaches sex, both can work on meeting each others needs, increasing intimacy, feeling connected to each other and in sync (what women need) and more sex will happen and it will be good for both.

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    1. I know this post is ages old, but I got here through a link from a link, etc. I just read this comment and I think it brilliantly articulates something I always wish I could figure out how to say in conversations like this.

      There’s more of a spectrum in this issue than just “force yourself to do it” versus “say no and ignore his feelings”. For instance, I have a girlfriend that once gave me some great and very helpful advice, which was basically, even if you not in the mood, try starting something, and you might be surprised to find yourself in the mood five minutes later. Or a sort of similar way of approaching this is being intentional about giving yourself the time and space to allow yourself to get into the mood. Sometimes in our busy day-to-day lives, it’s easy to fall into the patterns of obligations, and never really give yourself the headspace to slow down, relax and consider intimacy with your spouse. Without that space, you might never get “into the mood.”

      But on the other end of the spectrum, the advice to just go ahead and do it, can be dangerous and *deeply* detrimental to the intimacy in the relationship. It’s one thing to try to start cuddling, etc and open yourself to where that takes you. It’s quite another to just buckle down and meet your “obligation”. That kind of approach only leads to a truly damaging view of sex and intimacy with your spouse as Madeleine so wonderfully articulated. If you start going down that path you will only hurt the marriage in the long term.

      I think that’s where all this talk back and forth about “force” is coming from. It’s not about the husband “forcing” the wife, but consider, if he applies a magnitude of emotional pressure, the wife, who wants to make her husband happy, because she does love him, might end up taking the “buckling down” approach. Repeating this long term would damage her own view of intimacy and herself, and make her feel like sex is always something done under coercion. A husband and wife that struggle with this issue need to find ways to healthily help her open herself to a joyful increase in their sex life, whether it be her making habits or finding tricks to help her be more intentional about her “mood” or him finding out how to make the experience better for her or how if she has emotional needs he isn’t meeting, etc. Regardless it’s something that needs to be solved together. And anything that smacks of telling her to just “get over it” and that it’s her “obligation” that she should do joyfully or not, is not going to be a long term solution. And neither partner should want that.

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    2. True, We women need to be more clear about our needs. When we allow our needs to not be met sexually and keep giving to them on their terms then we become disinterested in sex altogether. We have a monthly cycle, if I signal my hubby to give me everthing he’s got during my peak times of the month and he hits that mark then I don’t mind giving him my body joyfully, willingly and lovingly during the rest of the month.

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  7. Like it or not, not everyone wants to have sex as often as you do. That’s part of life. Get over it.

    A woman has no obligation to have sex with you nor anyone else. Women are persons, not sex toys for men. She has every right to say no to sex, and when she says no, she means no. No means no. No does not mean keep asking until she says yes to get you to shut up; no means no. Period.

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    1. And so then a man should not have to help with the children or do any housework or fix anything around the house or even go to work when he doesn’t feel like it, on your view, right?

      I think views like yours need to be vetted before the marriage, so that men can know what “I do” really means. I’m not saying your view is wrong, I’m just saying that men need to ask that question up front, and to have legal recourse to withdraw from marriages without penalty when the terms of the contract are breached like this.

      As it stands right now with regards to the no-fault divorce laws, alimony and child support, I recommend that men not marry at all.

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    2. THANK YOU ROB F FOR USING YOUR SPIRITUAL MIND INSTEAD OF YOUR CARNAL MIND A LOT OF CHRISTIANS ARE DELUSIONAL WHEN IT COMES TO RELATIONS BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN THERE MIND IS FOCUSED ON THE TEMPORARY AND NOT THE ETERNAL!

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    3. Absolutely agree – and men have absolutely no obligation to listen to the meanless drivel that women pass off for “connecting emotionally.” personally, my marriage has never been better since I just stopped listening to my wife altogether.

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      1. LOL Chris, this was in 2009 Has she divorced you yet? Left you high and dry? Good grief. You sound like you have much contempt for your “ex” wife… That is horrible I pity her.

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  8. If you don’t go to work, you’ll eventually get fired. Not going has serious consequences. Not having sex will not cost you your job. Similarly, not fixing your house will eventually cause it to fall apart or need expensive repairs. The sort of analogy here and in Prager’s articles turns sex into work. But they are different things. Feeling compelled to have sex when you’re not in the mood removes the pleasure gotten from doing it when you are in the mood.

    And if the husband helps around the house, perhaps the woman will be less tired and more willing to have sex.

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    1. Not having sex with your partner also eventually has serious consequences too, such as cheating and divorce.

      If a woman ‘gives’ her man more sex if he does house work more, then what would this tell you about her sex drive and the way she relates? One could say that it is prostitution, because you are ‘paying’ her in chores and she is with sex.

      Sexual compatibility is so important in relationships, not to mention a marriage! If she is not on your page sexually, then she is not compatible with you. Females have sex with their men because THEY WANT TO. If you need to do chores around the house, or anything else to pay for the sex, then she does not really want to have sex with you. If she really does want to have sex with you, then it is sexual attraction at work and not work performance attraction.

      Now the other possibility is that you are a real sucker and did not act yourself in the beginnings of the relationship and did a lot of chores during that stage, and now that is the expected behaviour from you, then it is your own fault.

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  9. Wow, I think this is one of wintery’s first posts that I agree with in it’s entirety and most all of the comments – I have some mixed feelings on Rob F’s: I didn’t think wintery was proposing rape in any form.

    I think too few people are willing to talk about this subject and even when you’re not afraid to – you still too often find yourself in this very situation. With more and more women in the workplace, stress and busy schedules adversely affect a couple’s sex life and very few women understand the importance that intimacy plays. Many studies have shown that the main 2 reasons for divorce and/or straying from the marriage are money and sex, so it’s obviously a very fundamental aspect of any relationship

    But wow wintery, you’ve surprised me!

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    1. Oh, thank you for your kind words Jerry. I think Christians and Jews need to take the lead in addressing some of these moral issues at home and abroad. I am glad that we can get some agreement and leadership from sensible atheists like you on some of these issues, too. We’ve got to try to save the family, and that means taking the needs of men seriously. Wives need to work at their marriages just as hard as husbands.

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  10. Oh, gosh, just found this.

    Not married, but a few thoughts: Dennis Prager has got it all wrong. ALL WRONG, I tell you!

    As a commenter above noted, women need a lot from men emotionally. Yes, men should give this to their wives or girlfriends. No, they don’t. Since it’s not a tangible thing – “You talked with me for 37 minutes!” – there’s nothing that women can do to point out their deprivation in this area. At least men can say, “We only have sex twice a month.” Women don’t have anything concrete like that.

    That relates to my second point: if women don’t want sex with their husbands, it’s either because they (the wives) are cold-hearted jerks or because their husbands aren’t being good husbands. It could be something in bed (i.e. husbands are not ensuring that their wives are getting the same emotional and physical enjoyment out of it) or out of bed (see emotional connections, above). Either way, there is a good reason that is only going to be exacerbated, not solved, by submitting to a husband’s demands.

    It could also be that, after a lifetime of being told that sex is all about men’s physical needs, women mature enough to just not care about his problem. As a Single woman, I’m well aware that at least 95% of men my age think of sex as a physical need and a good time. What they fail to see is that they will reap what they sow: wives who think that sex is a man’s physical need and something he does for a good time, not for Love.

    Guess what, men? You don’t get a lifetime of good sex simply because you gave her a wedding ring. It takes work – work which starts the day you start dating her (by treating sex like something special) and continues throughout marriage (by treating sex like something special – to her as well as to him).

    Just saying.

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    1. I think in Prager’s article he was assuming that the man was a decent man and was doing all of those things to connect emotionally.

      The point that me and my Christian commenters are trying to make is that marriage is about commitment, not a contract. If I were finally able to get married, (after over 30 years of complete chastity, grrrrr!), then I would be interested in doing my job of connecting emotionally with my wife 100% of the time, even if I got 0% from her for any reason.

      Marriage is important to Christians because it mirrors Christ’s sacrifice of his own life for sinners. There was nothing that we did to merit God’s free gift of salvation. I am not a Calvinist, but I believe in total depravity and unconditional election. (I believe that grace is resistible, to that man is responsible for rejecting God) So when a man and a woman get married, they are called to express that love of Christ to each other first, in close quarters. This is much harder than expressing it at work, etc. Marriage is so difficult and so important, which is why I rave about Andrew and Jen so much.

      Right now, I am practicing making platonic emotional commitments for the day when I finally get married by finding single Christian women I like and bringing them things to help them to learn apologetics, including all scientific, historical and philosophical arguments. As long as I kept it platonic, it doesn’t send mixed signals which is so frustrating to women. I also encourage them to express themselves in writing and to practice debating and persuading others, so they can resist the culture, conduct research, and protect the worldviews of their husband and children.

      I believe in practicing giving love to women Platonically, so that if I do get married and the sex is not forthcoming, I will not be too hurt by that. But if my wife-to-be could at least write about marriage as a commitment, and sex as a legitimate need of men, then I would read what she wrote and I would feel a lot better about marrying her. Especially if she read books and had citations, because then she would be really convinced and informed about it. Like a man writing a formal research paper on the importance of chivalry, chocolates, flowers, poetry and washing dishes.

      For example, I used to think body-building was stupid because a woman should like me for my ideas. Then in grad school, I threw this out and dropped by body fat % to 18% and learned how to calculate carbs, protein and fat in my meals. Still can’t cook, though. Something to work on – for her! I also need to work on writing more funny stuff. My favorite thing is parody and satire. (I wanted to be an English teacher) One thing I can do is write a love essay that would make any Christian woman happy – so long as she has read C.S. Lewis and knows that love wills the perfection of the beloved.

      I never rule marriage out in any of my relationships with women. And looks don’t change that. I believe in sustained emotional intimacy is more important than physical attraction. But a good wife should be aware of her husband’s need for physical beauty and should take appropriate steps to be fit and have some muscle mass. This is the same way that I anticipate the security needs of my future wife and make appropriate financial sacrifices (not the car! that’s my horse!) and appropriate long-term investments to provide for those needs. (I sold everything in August 2007 and didn’t lose a dime on Obama’s socialism)

      I believe that women should avoid sex with men in order to get men to put out without the expectation of sex. That’s the way to choose a man who isn’t over-sexed, and to reinforce that behavior during the courtship. (Men should avoid sex with women in order to be clear-minded and intentional about making the right decision about who to marry).

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    2. I think in Prager’s article he was assuming that the man was a decent man and was doing all of those things to connect emotionally.

      That’s a rather big assumption to make. There’s a joke about a physicist, an engineer, and an economist who are all trapped on an island when a can of tuna fish floats up. The engineer and physicists are all trying to figure out how to open it and how to cook the tuna, once opened, when the economist says, “Assume a can opener.”

      Men might THINK that they are giving their wives everything they want, but, let me tell you, every single man I have dated has assumed that he’s been giving me enough emotionally… but he hasn’t.

      That assumption is the root of the problem. It ensures that no matter how much a woman does not want to let her husband use her body for his own pleasure (without regard to hers), that, well, he doesn’t beat her and he’s not overtly mean, so she’s getting all she needs.

      My point, which you obviously missed: men would be a lot better off asking their wives, with an open mind, if they are part of the problem, rather than assuming that it’s all her fault and that the situation can be remedied by her lying flat on her back.

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      1. Thanks for your comment, Theo.

        My point was that the conduct of men is irrelevant once a commitment has been made. So, I argued that women should choose husbands wisely, and test them during the courtship to verify that there is a sustained pattern of emotional capability. Some men are just not capable of it, and that needs to be established early so you can cut your losses. It helps if women are able to talk about their feelings during the courtship and have men prove their capacity to respond to those feelings.

        Men also need to get used to putting out 100% and it should be irrelevant what women “give back”, once the commitment has been made. That’s why men need to be careful with who they choose to marry, and they should look for a pattern of sustained recognition and submission to their needs. I use written essays to check all of this. Because once a commitment has been made, the man is obligated to put out 100% love at all times, regardless of how he feels about it.

        I recommend pre-marital writing and chastity. It’s more romantic and each person can verify that commitment to emotional intimacy and make sure it is not based on physical pleasure. When people do research on issues before writing, they become convinced of things that they are studying and the other person in the marriage can then trust that their spouse’s actions will be constrained by that knowledge. I think that pre-marital sex has really destroyed the capacity to evaluate possible mates and to express love in writing.

        I also don’t recommend that women vote for big government policies – because that just drains the coffers of single guys and discourages us from marrying at all. (Not saying you do – just making a general comment) No-fault divorce is also a tremendous deterrent to single guys who are thinking of marrying.

        This discussion makes me think of my cockatiel. I found some videos of other cockatiels getting their heads scratched on Youtube. I decided that the bird should be able to do everything that those other birds could do. So I spent months blowing on his neck, etc. up until today. Now he flies over to me, puts his head down, and screeches for a scratch. Head scratches are all about him being happy – I find find them distracting. But I do it because he’s my bird and I need to bond with him.

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  11. My point was that the conduct of men is irrelevant once a commitment has been made.

    That is where we disagree. You state it as fact; I think that is a (wrong) opinion.

    Thing is, EVEN assuming a woman “should” have sex against her will, a smart husband will not ask for that. In fact, any husband that does such a thing should be handed divorce papers for being a fool.

    Rather than whining about not having enough sex, or claiming that wives lose the right to refuse sex, why not (shocker!) explore the possibility that the woman’s decreased libido is a symptom of a problem and that, rather than blaming her for the symptom, try to fix the underlying issue?

    If a man feels like he isn’t getting “enough” sex, he should ask his wife if sex is emotionally and physically pleasing. If the answer is not a resounding “Yes,” then he should work on making it pleasing for her. That man will have a happier, more willing, and more pleased wife; a woman who follows Dennis Prager’s advice will “all of a sudden” hand her husband divorce papers, because she’ll just have had enough and want to be happy.

    I don’t think you understand how women feel about being forced to have sex. However strong the emotional reaction in being refused for sex, the emotional drain of having it against your will is much, much greater. No man worthy of the title would put his wife in that situation.

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    1. The thing is, Prager is not recommending that women be forced to have sex, any more than I am forced to scratch the cockatiel’s neck or put oil in the car. What Prager is looking for is that a woman actively participate in sex and even initiates it, even when she doesn’t feel like it, as part of her commitment to the marriage. Part of making a commitment to love someone else means loving that person regardless of whether your own needs are met. That’s why I mentioned the self-sacrificing model of Christ.

      It’s a question of being willing to hold up your end of a commitment to love. It’s something that everyone has to decide for themselves. My recommendation to men in this day and age is not to marry until they have evidence that their prospective mate is clear on her responsibilities in the marriage. I think that the ability of the woman to fulfill difficult responsibilities should be tested by men up front. It is important that people who are considering marriage be willing to sacrifice their own happiness for the marriage.

      And that’s another reason why I recommend chastity to people considering marriage. Chastity, which I wrote about here, is when a man (or woman) says yes to God in his relationships with the opposite sex. When I look at women, I do not think about whether they can meet my needs. I think about what I can do with them in order to have them meet God’s needs. Privately, I had hoped that one of them would come to value that enough to want to marry me and have children. But that has not yet happened.

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      1. Chastity, which I wrote about here, is when a man (or woman) says yes to God in his relationships with the opposite sex. When I look at women, I do not think about whether they can meet my needs.

        Exactly my point. A man who wants sex with his unwilling, non-orgasmic wife is not being chaste; he’s looking for a receptacle and thinks that the woman whom he promised to love above all others is the appropriate receptacle for it.

        Prager’s comments are there to tell women to sleep with their unchaste husbands, even if their minds and bodies are, sensibly, opposed to such a union.

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        1. You’re very nice to debate with me about this. If you kept your blog active, I would blogroll you, but I understand from reading it that you are a busy lawyer. But I am grateful that you have time to discuss things with me. I would not force my unwilling wife to have sex with me. What I will do is test her before marriage through writing and learning exercises. I would hope that after marrying me she would feel obligated to love me. That’s why at the beginning I was emphasizing that my job was to love her 100% and her job was to love me 100%. She is the one who has the responsibility to forget her feelings and consider what is best for me. And I do the same for her. That’s what love is. And that is how I love God, even. I think about what I want and then I say to God: “but this time I am going to do what you want”.

          I remember one time I was in the auto repair place and the people were operating on Copenhagen, (my roadster). And something or other happened and I remember being well within my rights to chew those mechanics out. But I remembered that they would have known that I was a Christian because I have my lunch book “Passionate Conviction” lying on my passenger seat and my vacation book “The Two Tasks of the Christian Scholar” in my trunk, etc, plus lecture CDs in the glove box. So I prayed to God about it. I said, “Lord, I know you think that sometimes I am all about winning arguments and nothing about obeying you, but I am going to calm down and let these monsters finish operating on Princess and then I am going to thank them for all their hard work.” And that is how you give a gift to God when you don’t feel like it.

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  12. Hi I am Mark and here are my thoughts in this area… Its actually a pet peeve of mine so forgive me if I sound a little upset at the status of how people, mostly men interpret the word of God as it relates to relationships. Most people take the one thing Paul said about not with holding your bodies and stop at that. Its like you good Christian wives need to put out and thats just it. Honestly Jesus is number one in my life and the weakness does NOT lie in God’s word… The weakness lies in the Christian mans inability to actually consider that the problem could be him. Lets forget about what Paul said for just one second and actually put the totality of scripture in view. Like lets just consider something… What if God in His infinite wisdom actually dedicated an entire book inside his word to the beauty and art of SEX and ROMANCE? What if we fell off our Paul horse for a second and flipped back to the pages of that erotic holy book known as the Song of Songs or Song of Solomon. Its beautiful and poetic and the imagery is intense. Pursue and caress you wife like Solomon did. Take these few chapters of Gods word and apply them to your relationship with your wife and you husbands will never ever have to play the “ITS YOUR OBLIGATION BS CARD” ever again ! Guys I have injected bits of sarcasm here but listen to this because its Gods will that your wife literally LONG for you… Guys be the lover that Jesus is to His bride and your wives will be counting down the minutes til you get home from work. Soft kisses, and affection all the time even when it not out of a selfish motive of wanting sex… Guys always pour out affectionate touches and caresses on your wife, just gaze into her eyes and embrace her like she is the gift God gave you because that is what she it. Treasure her and let her know that she devastates you always with a single glance. Read the Song of Solomon and pray God show you how to be a better lover. Remember we are told in His word to LOVE OUR WIFE AS CHRIST LOVES THE CHURCH and gave Himself up for her. Jesus constantly pursues us always, He is the most passionate lover this world has ever seen and we need to learn from Him these qualities. Solomon never ever had to get sex from his woman in S.O.S out of a sense of obligation. She was consumed with passion for Him. There is actually a part in S.O.S where Solomon’s woman is asking him where he keeps his flocks because she is going to come looking for him. In that day only prostitutes wandered the hills where shepherds would protect their flocks. So in this instant his woman it literally so consumed with desire for her man Solomon that she is willing to even look like a prostitute if need be in order to get to him. Does this sound like a woman feeling obligated to fulfill the roll of sex? NOPE ! ! !

    Also guys on a practical note there are clean educational web sites that show the anatomy of the vagina and every detail of how it works and how to better satisfy your wife. I would recommend looking into this as the better at loving you wife you can be the more she will enjoy it. The different types of orgasms of which some are way more intense than what we males have. Guy, orgasms and vagina’s are something God created and yous wife owns one so study to better satisfy her needs. Also there is a comparison to the time spent in love making in the S.O.S to a deer grazing among the lilies. The deer enjoys these delicacies all night long… Take hours on you wife not minutes, put your all into making her fill loved and she will be after you as well. God bless and I hope this helps

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      1. I think Mark was trying to say that, if a husband is doing his job, it’s a moot point.

        Legal analogy: let’s say that I agree to paint your house, and you agree to pay me $100. If I were to not paint your house, would you (morally) still owe me the $100? Wouldn’t the rational-person response to my demand for the $100 be, “Well, paint the dude’s house if you want your money for painting his house”?

        As I’ve pointed out before, the problem with the “Well, it’s just your job” line is that the emotional aspect of sexuality works both ways: when wanted and with a spouse (supposedly), it is amazing; when unwanted, it is horrible.

        Oddly, your newest post about Muslim virgins who are on death row does the most to undermine your (and Prager’s) point in this area: if you read the description of the women after being drugged and raped in their sleep, consider that a husband who forces sex on his wife (or who guilts her into it) is doing the same thing to her. Unconscionable.

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        1. Theo, I have to disagree with you. I wish you would consider Jen’s comment above, as she said it better than I could.

          1) Marriage is not a contract, it’s a commitment. A commitment to love regardless of how you feel. I read Madeleine’s comment about the emotional issues, and I am not sure what to say about that. I don’t have a response because I can’t really know what it’s like for women to have those emotions. But men have emotions too, especially when they are denied sex.

          I definitely reject the contract argument, and I definitely reject the idea that love should be throttled based on whether you get what you want from the other person. That is not the Christian way.

          Maybe you haven’t heard of William Lane Craig. He is the greatest Christian debater of all time. A while back, I wrote a post on how wife Jan influenced his career. You might be interested in reading the post and listening to his lecture on “Vision in Life”. You won’t like it, you won’t agree with it, but it does represent my view on marriage.

          2) In the case of the Muslim jailers, that was not a real marriage because she was under duress. Come on, now, be fair.

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          1. WK – I know this is your blog and all, but you are NOT the one being fair here.

            I did not mention the Muslim situation in order to equate lawful, agreed-upon marriage with the farce in Iran; I did it to point out that forced sex is so horrible to women that they will welcome death after it.

            Only the most inhumane of husbands – men who are not worthy of the name of “man” – would EVER do anything that even begins down that path. “Halfway down that path, ‘cuz she married me” is still going down that path.

            Let me put it to you this way: if my choices were between compromising my morals and just living with a man, so that I could retain the right to refuse sex if every fibre of my being screamed out against having him literally under my skin, or marrying him and losing that right – I would throw my morals out in a heartbeat lest risking that misery… because I would kill myself.

            Want to drum up support for the liberal, secular agenda? Keep pushing this issue.

            If you do not understand the intensity of women’s desire to not have sex – the act which entails letting a man into her very body – against her will, then we can and will never see eye-to-eye.

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          2. You’re fine, you’re fine. I want you to say what you really think. I have hopes of persuading you.

            Now I am going to frame this question again and I hope you will abide by my definition.

            Resolved: women should choose to recognize the needs of men for sexual intimacy and choose to initiate sex and consent to it even if they are not in the mood for sex. They should choose to do so as part of their public commitment made through wedding vows. If women want to get married, they should recognize the needs of their husbands up front, and be prepared to choose to address those needs as part of their commitment to love their husbands. Otherwise, they should not marry at all.

            No husband is forcing the wife to do anything against her will. Please don’t make me repeat myself.

            Obviously, if the woman has strong feelings against sex, then she should either try to overcome them by studying the subject, or by seeking therapy. But if not, then she should not marry at all.

            Let’s try a different approach:
            0) If a man has a similar emotional response against fidelity in the marriage, is he justified in having an affair?
            1) Do wives have objective obligations to love their husband and children?
            2) What consequences should follow when a man’s wife regularly refuses to have sex with him?
            3) Suppose a women believed as you do about male needs. Should she marry?
            4) If marriage were a contract, then would regular refusal to have sex not constitute a breach of contract?
            5) What sort of legal remedy would you recommend to a man who marries and then is refused sex regularly?

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          3. I dont want to interfere, but I don’t think mothers will feel ‘obligated’ to love their children. Same applies to wives. Love has no obligations IMO. Love is joyful giving, isn’t it?

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          4. No! Love is making commitments to other people and then living up to them regardless of how you feel! Even when it’s really hard to do! Sometimes it will be joyful, but it should always be selfless.

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          5. I still don’t think love is about obligations. Yes, love is not always joyful, and should be selfless. But when you love someone, you wont do something for them because you feel obligated. You simply just do it, because you love them.

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          6. See, this is why I won’t get married. Because you will not always feel in love, or feel happy doing things for other people. That’s why a vow and a commitment is necessary – to help you to keep fulfilling your obligations when you don’t feel like it. Do you think that men always feel like holding up their end of the marriage? Surprise! We don’t! But we understand duty, discipline, loyalty and commitment. Being married is not a non-stop party!

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  13. Listen Wintery! I agree with what you are saying on commitments. Yes, I should stand up to my husband and support him despite my mood swings and all that. True. I won’t be this loving, affectionate, selfless being at all times. I am only human. So yeah, despite our weaknesses we should stick to the vows we made. But what am saying here is, let’s not redefine love because of our incapability of doing all that love requires us to do, at all times. Sometimes we do things for love’s sake and sometimes we do them ’cause we are obligated. But what we do ’cause of our obligations cannot be defined as love.

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  14. What should wives do when they are not in the mood…pretend you are in the mood…you have to start somewhere.

    Just like exercise…I’m never in the mood…I just pretend…do it…and feel better afterward.

    Ladies…you’re the only woman your man can have sex with…do you want him or not. Get in the mood…or get out of the way.

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  15. Obviously, if the woman has strong feelings against sex, then she should either try to overcome them by studying the subject, or by seeking therapy. But if not, then she should not marry at all.

    All sane women have strong feelings about not having sex.

    To be very serious about this issue: the ONLY women I know who don’t have issues with being forced (by physical force or by social pressure) to have sex were all molested in their youth, are taking heavy doses of psychotropic medications, or both. That leads me to believe that it isn’t the “sex is special” group who should be getting therapy.

    My point remains: the only reason that a kind, healthy, loving wife would have strong feelings about not pleasing her husband is if he is not giving her what she needs from the marriage. Telling her to put out anyway does not even treat the symptom of the problem (since she, being normal and sane and not a victim of child molestation, will be resentful and feel even more distant from her husband); it only succeeds in masking the underlying problem.

    Hey, I hear you regarding the marriage as commitment thing. What I don’t agree with you about, because I wasn’t molested as a child who thinks that spreading her legs when she doesn’t want to is empowering, is your heartless conclusion. My take is always that a man has it in his power to remedy the situation to both their liking, while the woman does not. So asking her to solve a problem that she cannot solve, at great emotional expense to her, is not only brain-dead but also cruel in the extreme.

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  16. What I think Prager was trying to say, and which has been lost in all the convolutions and assumptions of force since then, is that loving husbands who aren’t in the mood to verbalize will try to do so if she needs it and is expected to do so; therefore loving wives who weren’t already in the mood will at least try to let themselves get in the mood and go there in order to express that love to him. Nothing whatsoever was said about demanding.
    Love is inherently giving of itself to the other. It can, however, be starved if the love is not returned, or beaten to death via verbal or physical abuse. If you want love to grow, give it. (I did not say there’s a guarantee.)
    I think it needs to be pointed out that men, especially milder-mannered men, need to be warmed up to free flow of intimate communication, much as women need to be warmed up to physical intimacy. In NEITHER case is force (including emotional bullying) appropriate. In both cases, it takes TWO parties. The romantic, warm words given help the other drop their defenses and open up. And the one hearing and feeling that warmth still has to make a CHOICE to enter into the intimacy, whether verbal or physical. If they sit there thinking “I’m not in the mood I’m not in the mood” it ain’t gonna happen. And both will be the losers for it. I know.
    I was married for over twenty years to someone who never missed a chance to cut me down, and could rage on for hours about nothing and everything. I got so I couldn’t help but freeze up every time I heard her voice. I WANTED to communicate, but I couldn’t. She’d blast me for 5 hours and then say, “Your turn.” And my mind could not think of any words. At all. Any attempt at saying anything romantic, ever, was sneered at and rebuffed. We rarely had sex, because loving me was not on her agenda. And I would not force her.
    I believe God gave marriage and made the two genders so different partly to teach us how to love. One person can open an emotional pathway, reaching out to their partner. Whether their spouse walks that path with them is their choice.
    Choosing to love is not a bad thing.

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    1. This is why no-fault divorce is such a deterrent for me to marry. What sense does it make for a man to “give and hazard all he hath” for a woman when the government steps in to make sure that she has no obligations toward him at all? In a way, I think that the government’s threat to impoverish the man if a divorce occurs should prevent all men from marrying. Since I am a Christian man, that would mean that I would be left with lifelong chastity as the only viable option.

      I just have NO LEVERAGE in the marriage, and women are being taught not to care about anyone’s needs but their own.

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      1. I’ve got a good lever:

        Don’t give your wife a reason to divorce you. :)

        Here’s another:

        Marry a commited believer.

        Great discussion. I’ve brought this up with a number of people at work, many of them women, and you see the lights go on and even much agreement pass when we talk about the current legal landscape of divorce and the problems it creates.

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          1. In Matthew 19 Jesus seems to say that there really aren’t any really good reasons for divorce. He allows for divorce “for fornication”. If there is a divorce for any other reason, then the wife, and the one who marries her, both commit adultery. I think adultery was looked upon as very bad then, not like it is now.

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  17. re:
    “Don’t give your wife a reason to divorce you.”
    When my ex went on a rant it didn’t matter whether there was a reason, she’d come up with 10,000 reasons. And after 20+ years of that I was a nervous wreck, ready to sign over more than I could pay just to end this nightmare. Her “reasons” had to do with her internal emotional damage that happened BEFORE I ever knew her, but she refused to consider that to get help for it.
    “Marry a committed believer.” She was. She is. She loves her God and her church, actively cares about and helps people, is generally speaking a “good person”. Which is exactly why I didn’t see this coming.
    I’m not saying I disagree with those two pieces of advice, only that they don’t cover enough. Maybe nothing does. Here are a couple more that probably don’t either, but may be useful.
    “Take time to know her” is true. Only after you see how she reacts to multiple situations and frustrations will you actually know who she is. Counselors say six months to a year is minimal for getting to know a potential marriage partner (to get beyond the initial infatuation and get your emotional eyesight back). Even then you won’t know how she’ll react to physical intimacy until you’re there, but it’s the same person.
    “Find someone your feelings are safe with.” (Paul Harvey, quote is approximate.) I don’t care how tough you are, if your dearest one is waxing sarcastic because you didn’t react (or not) to pain or whatever like John Wayne, it’s like a knife in the gut. Or somewhere. It’s next to impossible to be vulnerable with someone like that. If she cuts you down, it WON’T get better when there are more daily stresses of family life… it will get exponentially worse.
    Pay attention to the dynamics of her parents. There are exceptions, but people tend to play out what they grew up with. How do they handle disagreements? Stress? Are their interactions affectionate or all-business or barely tolerating? Is this what you want to live with the rest of your life?
    And look to your family, in regard to YOUR strengths and weaknesses in relationships. You may need to work on your openness or your warmth, expression of affection or something else. Chances are your parents had neither horns nor halos, and you need to exercise the weaker parts of your personality like a muscle group.
    “Love one another.” The bad things in marriage happen when one or both partners forget or refuse to do that. If you CHOOSE to be loving every day in relation to your partner’s needs, and if you find someone with that same commitment and habit, it will work. And you are not alone in this; the One who commanded it is the One who enables, “not far from every one of us”.
    So after all that, yes, I still believe that marriage as it was intended to be, is a “good gift”, a blessing. And in taking time to make wise decisions.
    Not sure I’ve lived either of those yet.

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  18. Right Jacobus, and I don’t want to minimize the hurt of what you’ve gone through. I think Jesus spoke directly to what you’re talking about when he was pressed on why Moses allowed divorce if God hated it so much.

    The way you describe your wife is inconsistent with a new creation and someone indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Only God truly knows the heart of a person, but He has given us measuring sticks by which we should be discerning. 1 John should be terrifying to anyone who is in this position or has a loved one who is (isn’t that all of us?). I implore you to be on your knees for her.

    “If you CHOOSE to be loving every day in relation to your partner’s needs, and if you find someone with that same commitment and habit, it will work”

    FANTASTIC point. Our culture has redefined love to be devoid of its amazing depth of meaning. Love is not a feeling. Love is a choice.

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  19. I have been married for almost 23 years. We have had our ups and downs, including the issues posted here. I love my husband very much. We make love at least once/ twice a week. But there are times, because we are up at 5:00am, go to 7am Daily Mass, homeschool all day, clean the house, make the meals, run kids here and there, etc…and go to bed HOPEFULLY by 10:oopm…it leaves me so exhausted. It takes me a half an hour to pray my Night Prayers in the Breivery, because I fall asleep every other sentence. So I fantasize about my head hitting the pillow. But I know when my man has that “twinkle” in his eye…yet he sees I’m exhausted…I give him that pittiful “look”. He is UNDERSTADING. He asks for a “raincheck”. So I say “Tonmorrow?”
    Then I make sure…knowing what he expects…to get a NAP in sometime during the next day! LOL! I want to please him, but sometimes I feel like 80 years old or something! He’s 7 years older than me! You’d think he’d be tired too!

    COMMUNICATION IS KEY!!!!!!! We found that out finally half way through our marriage.

    Tell him how you are tired…stiff…in pain you are …GUESS WHAT??? A 20 MINUTE BACKRUB IS THE CURE!!! It will renew your energy…and after you feel better and more energized…you can help HIM feel better, too!

    Now that we are finally “In Sync”, Our relationship is way better. He is very in tune and sensitive to my feelings, so there is no need to say “I’m not in the mood.”

    I hope this helps.

    God Bless!

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  20. Wintery,

    Hi, I’ve perused your blog now for a few months. You’re a great writer and quite intelligent. But some of your replies to Theo on this post has worried me. You seem somewhat jaded regarding marriage- especially for a man who’s never married. I understand why Jacobus feels the way he does, having gone through a tumultuous marriage and painful divorce. But why do you feel such a way? Because of “no-fault” divorce? With all due respect, even if this country no longer allowed it, there will still be millions of people in crummy marriages using all kinds of excuses to escape them. And that would not guarantee you a better marriage in the future, probably just a longer one.

    But why go into the legal argument at all? There’s a coldness to that argument, and I think you’re much better than that. Let me tell you my story. I’m 27, and on the 24th of this month, I’ll celebrate my one year wedding anniversary with my amazing husband Keiron. He’s been a truly amazing blessing in my life. I made the choice as a teen to remain a virgin until I married, and I’m so glad I did. There were times, though, when I wasn’t. Years of being single made me feel lonely and later bitter, especially when many of my friends tied the knot. It’s shameful now when I look back at it, but I was getting angry- even questioning God. I finally came to the conclusion I’d remain celibate for life- I kissed marriage goodbye. What I didn’t know was God had my husband for me, and I even knew him. He was sweet and quiet and worked in another department. I liked him. But didn’t see him like that. He, on the other hand, saw me like that. God works all things out for the good. Funny how things happen.

    My point here is, please, please, PUH-LEASE (lol) do not allow yourself to get bitter or cold regarding marriage. Even saying you’ll probably never marry (which could be true) can become a self-fulfilling prophecy if you allow it in your heart. This is no condemnation, just you seem like a nice guy… and I hope you stay that way. 

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    1. Thanks for your gracious and insightful comment. Please don’t let me sharp disagreement with you (see below) keep you from commenting more. I’ve tried to imagine Michele Bachmann while writing this so that it will not be too mean.

      I have some concerns about marriage in this time and place because of the type of vision I have. I am looking for particular knowledge in a mate, and I think that the culture right now makes it unlikely that I will ever find a person who offers what I regard as minimal requirements for a marriage. These minimal requirements require the prospective mate to understand what God is really like, how to defend him in public using arguments and evidence, what men are really like, what the needs of children are, and what laws and policies are needed to carry out an authentic, public Christian life.

      First, I have requirements around theology and apologetics. I need to find someone who wants to know about God based on evidence, not on subjective experiences. I cannot rely on a person whose knowledge of God is based entirely on blind faith and emotions. Life is very dangerous, and that kind of person will not bear up under hard circumstances, since their “faith” is going to be based on having feelings of pleasure and satisfaction. I am looking for a person who has studied to link their faith to objective facts from science and history.

      Second, most women support feminism and they desire to substitute the government for husbands and fathers by taxing productive men. Big government social programs and higher taxes reduces a man’s influence, leadership and authority in the home. Big government provides a safety net to women and incentivizes them to choose men based on emotions, rather than moral judgment. Women today are choosing men who will meet their needs. But the real criterion for choosing a man is whether that man has a vision to meet God’s needs. Women are supposed to help with a man’s vision. Not redirect his capabilities away from God.

      I expect women to be informed and passionate when discussing these issues. My general impression is that the truth of Christianity, and the problem of ensuring that public policies support the public living out of a Christian life, are far from the thoughts of single Christian women. They are very reactive and self-centered – very hostile to demands from outside and accountability to reason and evidence.

      So, it really has nothing to do with my feelings. I have an objective set of criteria that has been informed by knowledge about the challenges I would have to deal with if I were to marry and have children. I have not met any unmarried women who understands these issues, and who wants to live in a way that contributes something to God’s purposes in the world. When I raise specific objections to marriage, I am expecting to see some activism from women to address those objections. I am looking for proof in writing, some record of actions performed, and a genuine sustained interest in learning about my vision and helping me to achieve it.

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      1. WK,

        You often reference women, but you’re not looking for women, are you? Just woman. :)

        There is a place, very real and wonderful place for the ministry of single people. But should you feel the yearning towards marriage, you’ll find that the right person is out there. I think you’ll likely find that this list of impossible bars has been a barrier to help you wait for the right person.

        It’s in marriage that real accountability and Christian growth can be found so beautifully, not least of which are patience, growth, understanding, mercy, and forgiveness.

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        1. Actually woman is less relevant than women. So long as the laws and policies governing tax rates, free speech, family courts, public schools, etc. are determined by secular left socialist feminists, then getting married is not rational. It’s only getting worse and worse now, with the state actively undermining the Christian beliefs that I would want to share with my children. Face it. Single women vote Democrat because they want security instead of love.

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        2. I think all you really need is a virtuous, attractive Christian woman who won’t cheat on you or use the law against you. That’s hard enough to find. Looking for someone who meets that standard AND also shares all your interests seems entirely unrealistic.

          Expecting a woman who cares about apologetics and politics or whatever is unreasonable. Those characteristics are pretty rare among women.

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          1. I think men and women need to know whether God exists so that when his existence and character is maligned in public, they can defend him. I think this is a very useful test for choosing a mate. See if a prospective mate claims to believe in God, yet knows nothing about him and cannot defend him, it is pretty clear that the person is only concerned about what God can do for them, but is totally insensitive about God’s needs. When a person does apologetics for God, by studying and engaging, what they are really saying is that they are interested in being God’s ambassador. They want to know what he is like, they want to know what he wants. And they want to put themselves in the line of fire in order to accomplish that. When a Christian marries another person who knows nothing about apologetics, what they are really doing is marrying a person who thinks that relationships are all about getting your own needs met, and nothing about getting to know and serve other people. To love God means to care about his character and to defend his interests.

            I am not handing over my resources to the discretion of someone who doesn’t care to be an ambassador for God.

            I am not so much worried about being cheated on, or having the law used against me. That is bad. But it is in this world. What I am concerned about his having my entire life purpose made subject to someone who does not know God, care about God, or act to further God’s interests. I care about serving God and the most dangerous objective to that goal is to marry a woman who doesn’t share in that vision.

            I have a friend named Andrew and his wife Jen is a stay-at-home mom who holds two degrees in engineering and science. She spends her free time at the church answering questions for skeptics and she writes apologetics books for children at home. That’s what women are supposed to be like. I remember recently I was telling her about a woman I liked and how that woman didn’t like scientific arguments, and Jen said that arguments from science are the best arguments because that’s what people respect today. And she is very very good at arguing about scientific evidence.

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  21. Hi Wintery,

    I was worried for a sec when I read your “sharp disagreement” warning in your response. I thought, oh boy, first time I leave a comment, and I’ve managed to aggravate the blog’s author! But phew, no, nothing heated.

    I wanted to respond on a couple of things you brought up. First, it’s admirable that you know what you want in a future wife. However, have you brought these desires to the Lord in prayer? I suggest you do so, since from your writing, it seems you have a burden on your heart.

    Second, I understand your desire to have a mate that places God first, and is a willing and able warrior for Him and His purposes. However, I caution you there are more ways to be a Christian soldier than apologetics and defense. And this is not simple subjective opinion (although I can to speak to it), but Biblical doctrine. God has given His children different roles (see Ephesians 4:11-12), all quite vital to His service. In my marriage, I am the one who can define the heresies of Oneness Pentecostals, Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons. I can flip open the Bible and have long passionate conversations. I have held informal Bible studies with friends for years, and taken a myriad of classes on World Religion, spreading the Gospel and memorizing Scripture. My husband? Lol, not so much. He’s gifted with an amazing amount of faith, in exhortation, in serving others and giving. My words speak of God, meanwhile His actions exemplify our Savior’s sacrifice. As blessed as I am to have so much Bible knowledge, I stumble at times with doubt- which is the time my husband steps in with prayer and a God-given gift of faith.

    Before my husband, I assumed I’d have to marry a professor of theology or someone- maybe a youth pastor. But I am so thankful that in the areas I am weak, my husband is strong and vice versa. My point is, although you seek a wife with the same gifts as you, that might not be best for you. I think Drew has a point. Maybe your expectations are too high. Maybe they aren’t. What I hope you consider is to take the matter to God in prayer- and to humbly await His answer. Patience is key.

    Lastly, what is all this talk about the government having such a horrible effect on Christian women??? Stop that, Wintery! Generalizations are below you! I’ll admit, I’m not a right-winger (I’m not a left-winger, either), but what do mean about the “security” comment over “love”? I’ll tell you, marriage isn’t logical in this day… not when people can simply live together, have pre-marital sex, have kids out of wedlock… why bother? These are the world’s reasons, and their answer is to simply forgo marriage. You have very different reasons, but the fact you’d come to the same conclusion as the world is troubling!

    Okay, I’ve written WAY too much now. See, no worries, I’m a commentor.

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    1. Wow, this is another really great comment. I’m thinking: you need to start your own blog. But then I see you already have one! I hope everyone reading your comment will click through and have a look at it. Sorry if I have been mean to you in my comments, but it looks like you can take it, which is an excellent thing in women.

      Regarding the government, it’s not that I am too concerned about CHRISTIAN women voting for it. (Although a woman who wants to keep family money away from bureaucrats is VERY appealing to a man) What I mean by security over love is the following.

      Suppose there is a Christian man who has the good fortune to earn a salary of 100K. Because of taxes, he can only offer his wife an income of 50K. Let’s say that the government is spending all the money taken from him in taxes on GOVERNMENT-RUN DAY CARE AND PUBLIC SCHOOLS. Now this Christian man and his future wife would rather die that send their children to such places. But because of ALL THE NON-CHRISTIAN feminist women voting for bigger government and higher taxes, she ends up having to go to work to make ends meet and the children all turn into little atheists as a result of her not being there to answer all the nasty questions the public schools ask to undermine their faith.

      I think that many women today are trusting in government social programs to take care of them rather than their own ability to attract and choose a good man using their fine character and knowledge. And because men attracted by looks don’t hang around long, women tend to look to the government to give them the security (single payer health care, free abortions, etc.) that they crave without having to be accountable to anyone. The problem is that marriage-minded men can no longer start a family and have their children parented by a professional Christian woman (their wives) because taxes are too high to pay for all the social programs.

      Make sense?

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  22. Yes, it does. And thank you for the compliments. I hope anyone who does check out my blog aren’t thrown by my sometimes crazy mix of faith and pop culture. I did an entry once about my yearning to get married and lack of waiting on God titled “Get Hitched or Die Tryin'”- a riff on rapper Fifty Cent’s album “Get Rich or Die Tryin'”.

    Anyway, I understand what you’re saying. A scenario like that could totally occur. But it doesn’t have to. I was privileged to have a stay-at-home-mom, which was a rarity in the 80’s and 90’s when I was growing up, and seemingly impossible now. However, I had many friends whose mothers had to work, and they turned out great. Some have gone on to college, and are married with children themselves. Others? Yeah, they’re hanging in the agnostic corner, doing what they see fit. See, this is one of the points I do agree with from the Republican standpoint- personal accountability and responsibility. We have a choice in our future!

    I’m not stating we all have the same circumstances, of course not. Life is very unfair. But one should never allow life’s hardships to become the reason to not TRY to succeed. In some ways- private Christian education until high school graduation- my childhood was comfy. In others- like my parents painful separation and subsequent divorce- was shattering to my psyche. All of these things had an effect on me, good and bad. Ultimately, I made a choice. I was going to go to college (I did) AND get married. I would not allow my parents failures to trap me. I did not allow my college professor’s rebuke of Christianity to influence me. We empower (or destroy) ourselves by the choices we make.

    Rambling aside, I know about high taxes. Those who check out my blog will see I’m a Jersey girl, and let me tell you, we have some of the worse in the country. I know about dirty politics too- our state government is notorious. But what I know for sure is, greater is He that is within me than this corruptible world, and no government in this world will stop me and my husband from raising our (future) children in the ways of the Lord.

    Please don’t let self-centered, narcissistic secular views dissuade you from believing you can marry a Godly woman and raise Godly children. From watching your friends Andrew and Jen, you know it’s possible.

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  23. A couple more things from me. I have some thinking that I have learned over the years, that there are many possible people one can be married to and have a good marriage if they both try. I am meaning that there isn’t just one person out there that will meet your needs and fulfil you, but possibly many. In other places the marriages are forced by parents who determine who marries their child at a very young age. Maybe those marriages aren’t ideal, but I think we can use that as one step in the direction I am heading with this. I have been married for almost 30 years to the same woman. We used to belong to a large church with a good sized young married class that had good activities outside of church where we got to know other couples. I have seen over the years many other women that I thought would have been someone who I could have married and had a good life with.

    Another point I want to make is something that I discovered a few weeks ago. In Ephesians 5:24 there is a clause that escaped me for a long time, because most preachers spoke on verses 22,23, and 25. Verse 24 says wives are supposed to submit to their husbands “in everything.” That is the same way that God expects the husbands to submit to Him, in everything. There are other places in the Bible that support this, which is opposite of what the feminists want to hear. In Genesis 3:16 God tells Eve what the curse means to her and all women.

    There is a reason, or maybe a few reasons, why women need to submit to men. Men need the sense of guiding the family along its way. It is part of what satisfies a man. There was a very good message that I heard once from a young preacher that I wish was still in my area. He taught that being submissive is not natural for the woman. That is why it needed to be written down. In the same light, it is not natural for the man to love his wife, so he needed to be told to do it. And it surely isn’t natural for the man to submit, but we need to submit to God.

    If each of us do our part, where would our world be? It wouldn’t be in the mess it is in now.

    Now about sex. I heard a preacher or counsellor on the radio a while back say something that was really helpful. Sex is pleasurable and good, for young couples especially, because it is something that if they are both virgins, they will have in common as they learn it. It doesn’t matter if they are opposites, they will have this one thing in common to grow with and hopefully have together all their lives until one dies. That is the reason sex outside of marriage is bad and wrong.

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    1. I just want to highlight a couple of quotes from your comment that are pure genius.

      “There is a reason, or maybe a few reasons, why women need to submit to men. Men need the sense of guiding the family along its way. It is part of what satisfies a man.”

      I like to use the word LEADING. The way I do in my relationships is by talking to women and then finding something about them that I want to change for the better. Often, I try get them to move right on fiscal issues, because I think they need to see the family money as something to be protected from the state’s taxing and spending, because in the family we need that money for our own purposes. So I give them economics books and then talk to them and chat with them and try to see if they are willing to change. Almost none are, but lately, a couple of my female readers are responding to me.

      “Sex is pleasurable and good, for young couples especially, because it is something that if they are both virgins, they will have in common as they learn it. It doesn’t matter if they are opposites, they will have this one thing in common to grow with and hopefully have together all their lives until one dies. That is the reason sex outside of marriage is bad and wrong.”

      It’s one reason among many. I agree with you – I remember talking to one of my Indian friends about his experiences with it after getting married and he said something I will never forget. He said “it’s awkward because we’ve never done this before, so we’re still learning about it”. Men and women have a relationship together when they learn things together, especially something as personal as sex.

      My main reason for being chaste is because I don’t want to lose my ability to bond to a woman I like by breaking off a lot of relationships that went too far. Your soul is like a piece of tape. If you stick it to too many things hard and then tear it off, it gets less able to stick to each new thing. The best thing to do is to be careful what you stick it to, and only stick it ONCE. I am actually trying to accomplish something in relationships with women.

      I completely agree with across the board. Thanks for writing.

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    2. I strongly disagree. I couldn’t imagine marrying a woman that I wasn’t sexually compatible with. To put an example out there that is not applicable to me personally, but what if one partner’s idea of adventurous is whips and cuffs yet the other partner’s idea of adventurous is leaving the light on?

      Sex before marriage is the normal majority thing these days for this reason and many others. Why do people test drive a car or inspect a house before such a big purchase? Just like you need to find a compatible mate, if you find yourself marrying a cold woman that CANNOT change regardless of your own efforts, whats next? You can’t force a woman to enjoy sex and medication for sexual problems is still largely a male enterprise and there are less answers for females.

      I would also personally rather sex from a highly sexed female rather than obligation type of sex from a frigid woman. In addition, I personally feel that seduction would lead to more genuine ‘hornyness hot and ready’ from the other side rather than out of obligation. I also think that if a woman was really 100% not in the mood for whatever the reason, I would not even bother trying as it would not have the genuinely enjoyable and great from both sides element.

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  24. Wintery, I am so incredibly angry after reading this article. I don’t consider myself a feminist. I actually subscribe to a pretty old-fashioned view in my relationships with the opposite sex. You, being unmarried (and a virgin, for snark’s sake!) should not even be commenting on an issue like this! What do you know about sex and relationships, having never had either?

    I find your definition of love stupid. No-one who has been in love with another person could say that love is more about obligations than feelings. Love IS a feeling. If being in a relationship requires you to do something you don’t feel like doing that’s the definition of a bad relationship and you should get out of it.

    Sorry for the incoherency. I’m just so angry right now I cant think straight.

    PS to all you men out there, if your wife doesn’t want to have sex with, you you’re doing it wrong (sex, that is ;P).

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    1. Thanks for your comment. Sorry to make you so angry.

      I’ll tell you right now that I really appreciate you writing this comment to balance my point of view with an alternative view. Obviously I am in 100% disagreement with you.

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    2. This reads like a screed from someone that hasn’t spent any substantial time in a committed, monogamous, relationship with all of its assorted ups and downs and comes across as wholly naive and Utopian is in its outlook on sex within both the bonds of marriage or in a long-term relationship. (That or your anger is really, really, clouding your judgment and logical faculties.)

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    3. Wow Elizabeth… I feel sorry for your husband (assuming you have one).

      In marriage, “Love” is putting the other person first. “Love” is most definitely (partially) defined by doing things you don’t want to, because you know it will please your spouse. If you’re just looking out for yourself all the time – that’s not love, it’s selfishness. And if you think that you and your spouse will agree with each other on everything just because you’re really in love, you’re living in a fantasy world.

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      1. OK I feel like I should clarify to defend myself. What I mean is that if two people are a good match for each other most of their interests will overlap. When my partner wants to do something I might not have chosen we COMPROMISE and I enjoy the experience anyway because it makes my partner happy. So yeah, love IS about putting the other person first, as Tom said, so if both partners try to put the other first they end up compromising and nobody has to do something they hate.
        (By the way I have been in a monogamous relationship for the last four years and we’re doing great!)

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  25. I am a Christian in my early 20’s. I grew up on the mission field and agree totally with you that every person who calls him/herself a Christian should be able to stand up for God and defend the faith–and always be able to give an answer for the hope that is in him or her. The world needs God and he wants us to share him, so we’re all responsible to have as many “answers” as we can learn. I appreciate your passion for apologetics and am glad I stumbled up on your blog and that I can see your love of understanding and discussion.

    I’m nowhere near married yet; I pray that God has a man for me out there and long to find that one who will be my partner in serving Christ. Simultaneously, I look forward to the love, intimacy, and commitment of serving one another. I agree with your initial post and am glad you address this issue, since the divorce rates sicken me and make it clear that many Christians and non-Christians alike are not holding up their vows to love always.

    However, there are a couple of people who responded, and to whom you replied–but you seemed to skip over a point that they made. Madeleine and Mark both mentioned how men and women BOTH enjoy sex, and how they are very different in their enjoyment–I have no experience with this, but I agree with Mark that a Christian man who loves his wife should take Songs of Solomon to heart as he will want to please her physically even as she is pleasing him. It goes both ways; while it is her responsibility to meet his pretty constant need for physical intimacy, his responsibility to love her should include sensitivity to her needs of affection and meaning in the “special act” so that it remains beautiful to both. It appeared, while reading several people’s thoughts, that they skipped over the fact that a husband and wife’s intimacy should be a joyful gift for both, rather than seeing sexual fulfillment as the gift to the man and emotional fulfillment as the gift to the woman. I certainly think it’s reasonable to expect that my future husband, if he is out there, will love me enough to desire to romance me throughout marriage while I try to fulfill his God-given desires.

    Again, I appreciate your thoughts and courtesy to all who have commented!

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  26. At the risk of adding to the cacaphony, has anybody bothered reading Ephesians 5? Does a husband not also need to lovingly lead his wife so that his character does not interfere with their sex life? Who wouldn’t want to submit to a man like that and serve him in and out of the bedroom?

    Mars Hill Church’s Song of Solomon sermon series is fabulous for anyone struggling with these issues right now.

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  28. I agree with Andrew to an extent. I don’t think men are that well adept at expressing themselves emotionally. Maybe they think they are in their own way, but we have to keep in mind that we have to be adept in expressing ourselves in a way the other person understands/likes. We all have love languages. Maybe a man expresses his emotions with flowers, but the woman doesn’t desire flowers. Maybe she wants him to verbally talk about his feelings, which most men don’t seem to be very good at doing.

    Sometimes I feel like I’m in the reverse situation because I (a woman) desire lots of sex and he used to deny me. But he also has a problem with opening up with some of his feelings, specifically when something is bothering him.

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  29. what the heck is wrong with all these women not wanting to have sex – uh, you got married, so you could have sex – the two become one flesh – remember that. marriage involves expressing your love through the giving of yourselves (your bodies) to each other – and being open to the life it brings (baby). no wonder men are so hesitant to marry women these days…what’s the point ;)

    Eliz:
    “If being in a relationship requires you to do something you don’t feel like doing that’s the definition of a bad relationship and you should get out of it.”

    johnny – go clean your room; oh, but i don’t feel like it (ok , there goes the parent/child relationship)
    darling – let’s go to the theatre; oh, but i don’t feel like it (ok, there goes the marriage relationship)
    humans – love god above all things; oh, but i don’t feel like it (ok, there goes god/human relationship)

    yep, obviously there are plenty of doofus-es that haven’t heard of the word – SACRIFICE

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  30. I find this curious that women when they want it and you are not in the mood take it to heart. They are deeply hurt and think you don’t love them, are cheating or any number of negative things. Yet, they feel they can say no when ever they like. They are independent and do not have to answer to you.

    Today, women do not need to cook, do not need to do laundry, sew or anything else. You should help. Yet, I also see them in front of the TV watching those god awful soap operas while a man fixes the house or fixes her car. A man today has to do his things and hers.

    My question is, then why would I want to be with such a woman. When I am giving myself even when I don’t want to because of love, if she is not willing to do the same for me, she is not worth my time.

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    1. It’s worse than that. Whenever I try to ask them questions about how they have prepared for marriage, or how they would raise children and educated them and support me in my ministry, etc., they act like I can’t even ask them those questions! As if marriage is to be understood as some narcissistic fairy tale where the woman gets whatever she wants and just feels happy and never has to do anything that she doesn’t feel like doing. That’s why I recommend to men to ask women a lot of questions and to give them work to do – to see if they have a servant’s attitude to marriage. Which is just what men should have, too.

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  31. This is a perfect example of why marriage is against human nature. A man’s libido will naturally be higher than a womans.
    So the husband only has sex when his wife is in the mood which leads to sexual frustration and ultimately cheating.
    The wife caves in to the constant demand for sex from her husband. Which then makes her feel like a sex object and leads to divorce.
    Any couple who has been married for a long time will say that the marriage has gotten better with age. This makes sense because as a man gets older his libido decreases because of the drop in testosterone. So now the husband and wife are on the same page sexually.

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  32. I don’t believe in obligation sex, I believe that finding a sexually compatible partner is more important to long term marriage success. Never the less, this is a very good article indeed. I think women can become in the mood for sex if they tried and had the right mindset. However, too many women do think that every single prerequisite for emotional connection must be met by the man prior and often it is not a realistic expectation. This also puts too much power and control on the act where in relationships / marriages where the female is the lower sex drive partner. Sex should always happen without use as reward or punishment. Sex should not be witheld as an act of control.

    Sex is only best from a compatible mate in that area. Women have such hugely varied sex drives from woman to woman. I think in general men’s attitude toward sex is a much more positive one. Elizabeth’s comment is just one example of an unhealthy sexual attitude. How can the man be doing it wrong if the woman is not enjoying it? That is the most BS I have heard in a while. I was with a woman previously who could not orgasm at all, not with me or ANY men prior. Are all the men then at fault? No. The problem in this case was sexual inhibition on her part and a lack of finding what works on her OWN body, thinking that ‘that’ activity is dirty, wrong etc. The woman needs to tell the man what works on her body, she needs to know, and be able to apply it in the marriage or relationship. The man cannot read her mind to find out. Sure, we could just ‘go down’ on you for an hour and see what happens, but all women are different as to what works, and only men, or lesbian females, could possibly know this!!

    I think sex is all in a woman’s mind. I have found that more frigid women are sexually repressed where nympho women are sexually confident and free. In addition, I would personally prefer sex from a nympho type that does reject me occasionally, than sex from a frigid type that does it out of obligation.

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    1. Your choice of terms is telling – if women who enjoy sex are nymphos what are men?
      This subject has been discussed so frequently that I can almost predict the responses. Most men think that they are entitled to sex no matter what the state of the relationship is or their mates feelings or pleasure.
      Some feel that they don’t need to work on their skills with their partner because the woman is responsible for her orgasm. If she wants something just ask. This would be a decent set of beliefs if they had any basis in reality.
      Say them as often as you like but it does not seem to have a positive effect on the problem. In fact it is getting worse. Preaching about sex like it is a religion is rediculous.
      The subtle and not so subtle threats of devorce and cheating inherent in these post does not scare women strait. In fact, cheating among woman is reaching parity with men and 65% of divorces are filed by women.
      A fresh way of looking at the problem is in order. First, God did not make a mistake in making women. We are perfect in his eyes. God does not regard all things male as the gold standard by which all things are measured.
      Therefore the male sex drive does not describe the full scope of human sexuality. And there is the problem. The nature of marital sex is meant to be a blend of both male and female.
      Men don’t get to have orgasms in 2 mins on demand with partnered sex, they don’t get to have sex if they are careless of their partners emotions, or if they they are unconcerned about their partners pleasure. Most women have a complex sexuality that couples emotions and love and not the purely the persuit of pleasure.
      Each gender brings a different aspect of the whole of human sexuality. The joy, pleasure, emotional connection, the feelings of caring about one another and the show of love both inside and out side of the bedroom.
      Women are not responsible for contorting their sexuality to a male type nor are men to female type. We both need to work and become more like each other. The advice to women that they should have sex no matter how they feel is something many men can do but not most women. That is why the advice will never be taken seriously.
      It is too self serving for men, much too easy to put in the – sex is the only thing that is important to men – caregory. So too is the notion that woman should have sex with their husbands only when they are in the mood – that makes for abuse.
      Rather, a husband needs to learn what he needs to do to keep an emotional connection with their wives not just a sexual connetion and women should be willing to allow themselves to be arroused by their caring husbands.

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      1. You seem to assume too many things. Men don’t think they are entitled to sex and that is it end of story. You say regardless the state of the relationship; the problem is that too many women out there let the sex to be the first thing to be affected before anything else, even communication about what is the problem. Generally speaking, if one person in the relationship has a problem or issue with something, it is that person who needs to bring it up and the wrong way to do that is stop the intimacy between the two people.

        I never said anything about sexual skills, I did mention sexual compatibility which is more about the chemistry between the two people and the things that they like / get turned on by, rather than simply having a partner at your own level of experience. I personally believe it is very important that she has 1 or more orgasm before I do. I believe selfish male lovers are the type that is only interested in getting themselves off without consideration for his lover. I understand the female body, I know what works for one female does not work for another, I know they take longer to get to orgasm than men, and I know that there is such a wide difference between different women’s libido’s and sexual likes and dislikes. Only men and lesbian women could possibly know this fact so intimately.

        I believe that so many women have never really even had a long look at their own genitals in the mirror and would not be able to pick out their own vagina on a wall with a dozen different ones to choose. I completely fail to understand why you would tell me that women divorce more than men. Point exactly? Maybe the simple fact that women are a lot more emotionally complex than men? When men cheat they are just after sex because of their wife while when women cheat they are seeking love elsewhere? Both are bad I know what is worse.

        Everything from when you first mentioned God – down is mostly in agreement with me. I would just like to say though, that while I do think both men and women need to work and become more like each other, I don’t think any relationship could exist without some level of compromise, and it may become important for a partner to accept some shortcomings in an area even if they are trying, such as emotional connection for the female. A relationship where I felt I had to ‘earn’ sex and the emotional connection was not genuinely felt as a two way street, but more of something I served up on a dish, even when I’m not in the ‘mood’, would not work for me. How is that any different than the woman having sex even when she is not in the ‘mood’?

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        1. Let me tell you something about myself so that you get a sense of my values. We are married 10 years. s
          He has a high drive and I have a low one. I think these terms are inaccurate but commonly used. I don’t think about sex as often as he does but I can have and enjoy sex almost as often and as well as he.
          All I need to do is allow myself to be aroused . When we get started, I am good to go.
          I don’t have a spontaneous desire to have sex most of the time like my husband but it is indictable.
          He helps me become aroused by doing the things that get me going. That’s it.
          At times I am really in a blue funk or we have unresolved comflict and I let him know early that I need time. I also tell him why and how much time it will take me to come out.
          I would not be able to enjoy sex with him. I tell him that I need time and how much.
          We try to resolve conflict in a way we both can live with. I don’t push him to do what I want but we both acknowledge that we have differences are willing to come to an agreement.
          So that is my situation. I am happy and if I can speak for my husband, he is satified. I hesitate to say happy only because we have sex 4 times a week wich is less than his preferred 6 times. It is a compromise because I just cannot seem to get arroused if we go much more every week. I took issue with the obligatory sex thing because I think it is unworkable. I think that couples with mismatched drives can come closer if they learned what the LD person needed to get aroused. The only obligation I see is that both agree to 1) do what it takes and 2) allow the arousal to take place.
          That is a far cry from asking one person to ignore their natural nature for the other. I am just as much a person as my husband.

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          1. Sounds like decent values to me.

            I would just like to say, not all women with low drive are motivated enough to change the situation. Many don’t want to talk about it, and they simply believe their partner should be universally accepting without any discussion at all about the situation. I know it sounds like worst case scenario, but it really is more common than you think. People should be able to talk about and work out and come to a solution together, but for a percentage of the population this is simply not possible for whatever reason.

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  33. The fastest way for a man to get his needed sex is to encourage his wife to spend time and speak and be in touch with her girlfriends. The natural competitive nature of women will make the wife see that she is not keeping up with the other women and she will correct her ways. When women see other women prepare and prune and cook and dress attractively they get reminded of the point. Femininity is complex but it does have the sex act as part of the female experience.

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  34. I have been married for 22 years and I have learned alot. In my experience as a low T woman, I have learned to do exactly what they are stating for the sake of the marriage! It was hard at first to have sex when you weren’t in the mood because your mind just wasnt there…sometimes the mood would finally come…other times it never did. So what we figured out is that at those times when I wasn’t in the mood I would fulfill his needs but wouldn’t work to fulfill mine. They would be quickies. His needs are fulfilled and we are happy! So far it has worked and our marriage is better! He feels loved through sex and I feel loved through Acts of service! Check out the Five Love Languages so you can speak your spouses Love language correctly! It has to be a win win…if he needs sex to feel loved then he needs to do whatever she needs to feel loved! That’s what LOVE is all about. Love starts off as a feeling and you are on a cloud but soon familiarity sets in and that high fades and love becomes a Decision! If more people would recognize that maybe we would see less Divorce and heartache. It’s one thing to have those strong new feelings of love but its an even greater deeper expression of Love when it’s a decision!

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    2. That’s real love not just Fairy tale Love.All people should be like you.What a inspiration to read your comment!

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    3. I was so happy to read your comment. I enjoy sex when I want it, but I only want it about 3 times a month. He would like it every day. And I definitely feel loved through his acts of service. But when I don’t want it, I really don’t want it. So the quicker and less I am involved the better. From your experience (or anyone else who is reading this) how quick is quick and something other than intercourse or oral do?

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  35. I love my wife and I know she loves me too. We have two beautiful children and I dont think I can ever find a better woman than my wife so coming here and saying what I am going to say now is really hard but its what I feel after 12 years of marriage. My wife started refusing to have sex about 2nd or 3rd year in to our marriage. Till about last year, I never pondered upon it as I respect her decisions. Mind you though, it did make me sad and at times depressed as well but I still had strong sexual feelings for her. But now, I dont find her sexually attractive. I get sexually aroused but dont feel like having sex with her – its like I am scared that I will have to face yet another rejection and I am not prepared to be emotionally hurt anymore. I used to kiss her every time I left for work and when I came back from work (She works from home) but now I dont feel like it and I dont it anymore. I still love her to death though.

    I have done stupid stuff in my life like working too hard at times and coming home late from work but it has always been to create a good life for the family. I do lawn mowing and any physically demanding work at home but it does not seem to help.

    Funny thing is, now that I have refused sex a couple of times (first time in 12 years), she says that I have changed and that I dont love her anymore (which is false coz I have always loved her and that will never change).

    I know I wont cheat and I know she wont cheat so not sure what is going to happen in he next few months as I have come to point where I am vehemently going to say NO to her. She is NOT getting any action from me. May be that is what she wants………

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  36. After reading all the comments, I see my husband and I are in a place many couples find themselves in: he wants sex more often than she does; her desire is emotion driven, his more physiological; sex is primarily an emotional connection for her, he says it is for him too, but it sure looks like sex for him is primarily physical stimulation/pleasure and release.

    I had worked hard to meet my husband’s sexual desires, but I can’t get motivated to any more. I still want to have sex with him when I am in the mood-about 3 times a month-but the rest of the time sex is a turn off, not a turn on. It sure seems like as soon as he has a release he looses his interest in sex for a day or so. So, if I am not interested, wouldn’t it be ok just to quickly bring him to release manually? He would get his tension released and I would minimize the negative aspects from my point of view. Anybody have experience with this?

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    1. I don’t know that it’s a problem to occasionally give a hand job instead of intercourse when you’re not feeling up to sex and he really wants it. However, you do want to be very careful about how you go about that. You don’t want to decrease your connection and intimacy by treating his sex drive as a problem to be “fixed,” treating you as a sex object to be used, or making those sexual encounters impersonal. There can be a real danger in turning your marital intimacy into just giving him a quick release so you don’t have to deal with him and his desires. That’s not okay and it will pull you apart over time if you let that happen.

      Married sex should be mutual and that means both people involved and sharing intimacy with each other, not just getting a physical sensation they like. Sex does include the physical sensations, but that’s not all it is. It’s supposed to be about bonding the two of you together, and that requires that both of you be sacrificial enough to care about the other person’s desires and seek to meet them.

      For those reasons, if you do engage in manual sex, here are some guidelines to help you keep the focus on intimacy.

      1) Only do it occasionally – once or maybe twice in a month. You don’t want it to become your usual method of having sex and you don’t want to decrease your frequency of intercourse by defaulting to an easy option that takes less work and sacrifice and creates less connection.

      2) When you have manual sex, try to keep the connection. Put on something sexy, talk or moan, look into each other’s eyes, touch each other in other places, do some kissing, cuddle up afterward, include a backrub for one or both of you, etc. You don’t have to do all of these every time, of course, but try to include something that fosters connection each time.

      3) Make the effort to engage in intercourse more often than you think you want it, and even when you’re not in the mood up front. If it just isn’t working for you, then switch to manual or oral. But don’t automatically assume that you can’t get aroused because you aren’t aroused up front. A little kissing and touching can get your motor going (especially if you can get your head in the game), and even if you don’t climax, you can still enjoy it.

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      1. Thank you for your reply. It raises another question I have had for a long time.I have noticed the emphasis on intercourse when people talk about sex. I am reluctant to say this, but I have never understood this. I have never liked intercourse. I certainly understand the intimacy aspect of sex and its primacy, but I have never understood why people seem to assume that intimacy requires intercourse rather than outercourse, or oral, or manual. Any thoughts?

        I actually agree with all you say about intimacy and mutuality. My thought was to go to a manual quickie for him for those times when it would not be mutual. I thought of it as a balancing of sacrificing, kind of meeting in the middle: he would sacrifice his ideal for a quick hand job, I would not completely abstain, but would give him some quick relief.

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        1. There is an intimacy in intercourse that is not found in other forms of sex. You can kind of think of it like kissing the cheek or hand versus kissing on the lips. Kissing on the cheek is kissing, and it’s nice. But only when you kiss on the lips are you both simultaneously kissing each other, and there’s an intimacy in it that doesn’t occur with other kinds of kissing. In much the same way, intercourse is the only way for both people to be engaging in sex with their primary sex organs at the same time, and there’s an intimacy to that which is more than for other kinds of sex.

          In addition to that, only intercourse fulfills the other God-given purpose of sex by joining two people in a procreative act that merges them into one biological unit working for a single purpose. The procreative potential of intercourse sets it apart as a unique and intimate act with a purpose beyond mere pleasure.

          Also, intercourse sets the contrast between men and women at its highest by using their unique physical differences as they were intended to be used. Oral sex is sex, but both men and women have mouths. Manual sex is sex, but both men and women have hands. Only a woman has a vagina. Engaging in vaginal intercourse is something only a man and woman can do, and it is also what their sex organs were designed for. There are other forms of sexual pleasure, but none so built into the design of the male and female bodies as intercourse.

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        2. If you do not like intercourse, perhaps you should see a doctor to see if everything is working properly. If intercourse is painful, that is not normal. There are various things that can make intercourse painful or unsatisfying that can be addressed – either physically by seeing a doctor, or through some adjustments to your behavior. You might, for example, find that Kegel exercises help or that tilting your hips makes it feel better or that you need more foreplay to get you aroused before intercourse. You might also try some lubricant or a vibrator. Learn to lean in to the feelings and sensations that you do like. Tell your husband what you like and guide his hands or other body parts as necessary. Learn to clear your mind and be present in the moment, not thinking of everything else you have to do. Experiment with different things and practice, practice, practice. But make it your goal to make intercourse something you can both enjoy. Your pleasure matters too and you can get a lot of enjoyment out of intercourse, if only you know how.

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